Euro-pean on America

[Lumpy 1]

In my opinion, America should remain distinctly different from the rest of the world.

This drive by Democrats to force feed us the European style health care, cap & trade, more government control and restrictions, high unemployment, loss of State sovereignty, etc., just sucks in my opinion..

It's fine for them if they like it...

 

[antagon]

my history has the US leading europe on those same topics.

 

[Lumpy 1]

my history has the US leading europe on those same topics.

Explain please...

 

[xotoxi]

In my opinion, America should remain distinctly different from the rest of the world.

Why?

If you are referring to the use of soaps and deodorants, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[Polk]

Since when is cap-and-trade a European idea?

 

[Lumpy 1]

Since when is cap-and-trade a European idea?

Google.. European Cap & Trade.. but this will get you started

EUROPE'S "CAP AND TRADE" PROBLEMS

 

[Polk]

Since when is cap-and-trade a European idea?

Google.. European Cap & Trade.. but this will get you started

EUROPE'S "CAP AND TRADE" PROBLEMS

A conservative think tank has a problem with cap-and-trade and talks about one firm to make their case.

Also, you never answered how it was a European idea. I'm guessing that's because you already know the answer. It isn't. The earliest example of emissions trading is from right here in the United States. The Acid Rain Program program established by the Clean Air Act of 1990.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Since when is cap-and-trade a European idea?

Google.. European Cap & Trade.. but this will get you started

EUROPE'S "CAP AND TRADE" PROBLEMS

A conservative think tank has a problem with cap-and-trade and talks about one firm to make their case.

Also, you never answered how it was a European idea. I'm guessing that's because you already know the answer. It isn't. The earliest example of emissions trading is from right here in the United States. The Acid Rain Program program established by the Clean Air Act of 1990.

..you got me....

(actually who cares, their doing it first) Hows that working out for them..?

 

[Polk]

They're not doing it first. We did it first with SO2 emissions.

As for how its working out, it's still in the early stages. The Phase I caps were not particular successful because too many permits were issued (meaning that while a cap existed on paper, it didn't exist in practice). Even so, there are some studies suggesting it did influence behavior (if you'd like to read more: Fondazione Eni Enrico Mattei Working Papers).

Also, that article you linked to earlier? It's built on a false premise. It's saying that firm is having a problem due to increased electricity costs. The problem? Power producers are exempt from the bidding process and receive their permits for free. The result is that the system doesn't increase their costs at all. If it did, you would have seen energy costs increase across the EU. That's not what happened. Most of the increase occurred in nations which have deregulated their energy sectors.

 

[Lumpy 1]

They're not doing it first. We did it first with SO2 emissions.

As for how its working out, it's still in the early stages. The Phase I caps were not particular successful because too many permits were issued (meaning that while a cap existed on paper, it didn't exist in practice). Even so, there are some studies suggesting it did influence behavior (if you'd like to read more: Fondazione Eni Enrico Mattei Working Papers).

Also, that article you linked to earlier? It's built on a false premise. It's saying that firm is having a problem due to increased electricity costs. The problem? Power producers are exempt from the bidding process and receive their permits for free. The result is that the system doesn't increase their costs at all. If it did, you would have seen energy costs increase across the EU. That's not what happened. Most of the increase occurred in nations which have deregulated their energy sectors.

Well I'll admit it, you have me at a disadvantage, I haven't researched European cap & trade or potential U.S. cap & trade enough. I will... then we can dance with the issue. Of course, if you prefer, I could pick the personal insult option.

Mainly.. my post dealt with retaining America's uniqueness and the drive to use Europe as the standard to strive for..

 

[Polk]

That's a strawman though. People aren't saying "American sucks, let's copy what Europe does". We're looking at things which are broken and analyzing alternative models to see what could work better. That's a fundamentally American trait and cap-and-trade is a great example of that. Emissions elsewhere were traditionally limited by hard caps on industry set by the government. We saw that setting caps, but letting markets figure out the approach, was a better way to solve the problem. In the case of SO2, it's been widely successful. Emissions are 40 percent below where they were in 1990, the emissions reduction target was met three years ahead of schedule, and the cost is only a quarter of original estimates.

 

[antagon]

my history has the US leading europe on those same topics.

Explain please...

i mean the acid rain barter in the clean air act predates the kyoto trick by almost a decade.

the social security act predates anything like that in europe. they created their systems with our money after ww2. germany and france are privatizing their healthcare systems. the swiss are embracing an HMO system.

CanAm and NAFTA predated the EU, but arguably europe neccessitates consolidation merely to compete with our union of united states. that was 220 years ahead of the EU.

unemployment isnt a policy in europe or the US, but as top-tier countries, id say we're all at grips with de-industrialization.

what do you mean by increased regs? americans are 100x more entrepreneurial than englishmen, but it is shocking how easy it is to get in business in england. theyre more into tax than regs. ive got to throw down workers comp, get state and local licensing, a contractors license... all id have to do in england is incorporate.

im all for our national identity, but remind that some things come with age and the neighborhood of developed superpowers. indications are that the rest of the world is following our lead, just whining more.

 

[Polk]

It's not just Britain. That's pretty common across Europe. And in general, it's more effective.

 

[antagon]

It's not just Britain. That's pretty common across Europe. And in general, it's more effective.

im aware, but more effective at what?

 

[Polk]

It's not just Britain. That's pretty common across Europe. And in general, it's more effective.

im aware, but more effective at what?

Meeting the intended policy goal at minimal cost.

 

[antagon]

well, there ya go. in the US, we're all about meeting the intended policy at optimum profit. on the backs of our complex tax code, laws and regs, we've got massive private corporate infrastructure contributing to our economy on a for-profit basis.

the healthcare initiative is right up that alley.

 

[Polk]

I don't think profit is the intended goal. It's a cultural aversion to taxation. Which is why so many things are done via regulation which could be done in a much more streamlined manner via tax policy.

 

[antagon]

I don't think profit is the intended goal. It's a cultural aversion to taxation. Which is why so many things are done via regulation which could be done in a much more streamlined manner via tax policy.

im big on pig taxing, generally. for small businesses, at least, there is a great deal of tax-led direction from the government. looking at the cowboy contracting thing in europe, its not tax-regulated, just unregulated. there's more malpractice in building out there as a result.

i think that we could free up some of our market-based capitalism by pig-taxing instead of regulating. we could have overted the derivatives disaster with a tax assault.

 

[antagon]

regulations and mandated corporate infrastructure is heavily lobbied by providers. if its not intentional, do you think there's a coincidence between the lobbies and the momentum behind, say, the healthcare bill?