(+)Eugenics, Yea or Nay?

[JBeukema]

Eugenics, positive or otherwise, is noting but psuedo-science, and it will never be anything more.

lol


You really need to get a dictionary.

(n) pseudoscience (an activity resembling science but based on fallacious assumptions)

WordNet Search - 3.0

Evolution, the existence of genomes and alleles, mutations and heritability- these are all firmly established. So, too are selective breeding and genetic manipulation.

Once again, you fail to have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[JBeukema]

You are right to want to reduce suffering, just remember while you are doing it that you are not perfect and you don't have all the answers.

So we should have stopped all surgeries the first time someone bled out? We should no longer use anesthesia, antibiotics, or other medicines because sometimes we've found something we thought was helpful was actually harmful and some people have adverse reactions and die?

Sorry you couldn't live in the Dark Ages and enjoy the Black Death like you want, but the rest of us are glad we've modern medicine.

 

[JBeukema]

As someone WITHOUT any genetic flaws,

All of the great apes are genetically flawed due to a particular virus that's embedded itself in our genome. it's why we can't make our own vitamin c and scurvy is such a concern.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF2N2lbb3dk]YouTube - Vitamin C And Common Ancestry[/ame]

would you genetically choose to have a downs syndrome child or something worse?

Would you choose to take what measures you could to prevent the illness?

Would you have your child immunized or not?

As someone WITH downs markers would you choose to have that gene deleted out so that a child of yours would not have the possibility of having downs?

Would not any moral person who loved their child?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All eugenics is negative, it has to be, or it is not eugenics.

Do you ever know what you're talking about?

P{lease, take the time to learn what words mean before interrupting the discussion any further.

Sure will, let me just look it up.

: a science that deals with the improvement (as by control of human mating) of hereditary qualities of a race or breed

Eugenics - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Nope, not that one.

eugenics: Definition from Answers.com

Nothing there.

Eugenics definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms

That was interesting, especially this part.

The practice of eugenics was first legally mandated in the United States in the state of Indiana, resulting in the forcible sterilization, incarceration, and occasionally euthanasia of the mentally or physically handicapped, the mentally ill, and ethnic minorities (particularly people of mixed racial heritage), and the adopting out of their children to non-disabled, Caucasian parents. Similar programs spread widely in the early part of the twentieth century, and still exist in some parts of the world. It is important to note that no experiment in eugenics has ever been shown to result in measurable improvements in human health. In fact, in the best known attempt at positive eugenics, the Nazi "Lebensborn" program, there was a higher-than- normal level of birth defects among the resulting offspring.

Positive eugenics, in the only documented attempt to test the theory, was an abysmal failure. You have to deal with the failures somehow, and so far you have refused to even acknowledge the possibility at all. On top of that it is a psuedo-science because we cannot use the scientific method to test the results.

Again, eugenics is a psuedo-science, and it is, by its very nature, always going to involve the negative aspects you want to gloss over. The failed experiments are going to be human beings that suffer because of the arrogance of people who, like you, think they can outsmart nature. You are being intellectually dishonest by refusing to accept this simple truth, and then you claim I do not know what I am talking about. Funny how the only guy in this thread who does not know what he has talking about has managed to produce references to back up his opinions, while the expert can simply resort to repeating the same thing over and over.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Eugenics, positive or otherwise, is noting but psuedo-science, and it will never be anything more.

lol


You really need to get a dictionary.

(n) pseudoscience (an activity resembling science but based on fallacious assumptions)

WordNet Search - 3.0

Evolution, the existence of genomes and alleles, mutations and heritability- these are all firmly established. So, too are selective breeding and genetic manipulation.

Once again, you fail to have a clue what you're talking about.

Pretty good there, are you claiming that eugenics is a real science?

Pseudoscience is a methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific, or that is made to appear to be scientific, but which does not adhere to an appropriate scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, or otherwise lacks scientific status.[1] The term comes from the Greek prefix pseudo- (false or pretending) and science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge"). An early recorded use of the term was in 1843 by the French physiologist François Magendie.[2]
As taught in certain introductory science classes, pseudoscience is any subject that appears superficially to be scientific, or whose proponents state that it is scientific, but which nevertheless contravenes the testability requirement or substantially deviates from other fundamental aspects of the scientific method.[3] The term is inherently pejorative, because it is used to assert that something is being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science, and those labeled as practicing or advocating it normally dispute the characterization

Pseudoscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Until you can set up experiments to prove your theories, and have them replicated by other experiments, eugenics will remain a psuedo-science.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are right to want to reduce suffering, just remember while you are doing it that you are not perfect and you don't have all the answers.

So we should have stopped all surgeries the first time someone bled out? We should no longer use anesthesia, antibiotics, or other medicines because sometimes we've found something we thought was helpful was actually harmful and some people have adverse reactions and die?

Sorry you couldn't live in the Dark Ages and enjoy the Black Death like you want, but the rest of us are glad we've modern medicine.

Nice strawman.

I have said from the beginning that there is no such thing as positive eugenics because it has negative effects. Experiments fail, and they will in this also, yet you have repeatedly ignored the repercussions of a failed experiment on a human being. Eugenics would be experimenting on the entire human race, and failure there is not an option. Unless your actual goal is to wipe out humanity.

 

[AllieBaba]

Genetic engineering is wrong. Forced sterilization is wrong. It always has and always will end badly. And the people who support such things are disgusting pieces of shit who don't even deserve the time of day.

 

[blu]

Improving the quality of life leaves a lot of really bad ideas that progressives love to spout on the table.

Care to clarify and present your actual objections rather than simply throwing around some Beckish bullshit? Let me guess, empathy leads us to bad places because Hitler killed the Jews out of empathy

eugenics should be used based on the personal responsibility of the people involved. Become a drag on society and get cut out of it. The idea of doing it based on sickness etc is retarded as people will always have issues and people with health issues are still highly productive (my dad has diabetes for instance)

 

[blu]

Nah, the folks who would wind up making the determination are usually the folks who should be first into the gas chamber. as was the case in Germany

the face eugenics == nazi eugenics fallacy

 

[blu]

Improving the quality of life leaves a lot of really bad ideas that progressives love to spout on the table.

Care to clarify and present your actual objections rather than simply throwing around some Beckish bullshit? Let me guess, empathy leads us to bad places because Hitler killed the Jews out of empathy

Did I say anything about empathy?

Hitler killed the disabled and psychiatric patients also, nit just Jews. In fact, he went after them first, in order to improve the quality of life. Maybe if you paid more attention to history you wouldn't sound so much like a fool by jumping to erroneous conclusions that I listen to Beck.

the Zionist conquest to only have people think that jews died in the holocaust is incredible. ask the average person and they wont evne know that handicapped, Catholics, gays, etc were all killed as well. It is one of the most amazing misinformation campaigns in history.

 

[blu]

Nah, the folks who would wind up making the determination are usually the folks who should be first into the gas chamber. as was the case in Germany

Parents and their doctors should be first into the gas chambers?

is this some stupid abortion == eugenics argument?

 

[blu]

Before anyone gets too carried away with this equating to KILLING undesirables, let us not forget that folks can be STERILIZED, eh?

Are you advocating negative eugenics and forced sterilization?

I am all for that based on lack of personal responsibility. see my link from my first post in this thread

 

[blu]

"Eugenics was Hitler's favorite Science, what's not to like?!!" -- Ima Progressive

another eugenics == nazi eugenics fail

 

[blu]

I suppose so, since it IS rather "negative" to remove the abnormalities from the stock to start with.

But here's a prime example of why I would be in favor of it:

My bro & sis-in-law. He has a condition that is ALWAYS passed on to the progeny, which begins with legal blindness and ends with complete blindness. They had 3 children, and all three carry this gene AND are affected by it.

To my way of thinking, the parents were remiss and could almost be accused of child abuse for their part in the creation of these "malformed" kids, and to allow those children to then go on to procreate, themselves, is an absolute crime against THEIR children.

I would hope that most sterilization would be Voluntary, since the premise is logical, but folks are always going to scream about "their" rights, especially when "their" rights negatively affect others "rights."

UNTIL a solution can be found, to repair the damaged allele(s),

yes, I think it should be mandatory for anyone carrying that/those allele(s) to undergo sterilization.

In one way, it sounds so facist, but looked at from the other side of the coin, it appears to be empathetic/sympathetic to the OTHERs that are involved in protecting THEIR "rights."

Thank you for proving my point. Should we kill these children to ensure that they do not burden society by being blind? If not, how do you justify sterilization? If the purpose of life is to reproduce, you are effectively declaring that you are God, and have the right to make decisions for others based on your standards.

based on humans and how Earth turned out, God obviously failed the first time so having someone else take over for him doesn't seem like that bad of an idea

 

[AllieBaba]

What arrogant pieces of shit you are.

And ignorant besides.

"They were training youth from the cradle in their new philosophies and goals with a strong emphasis on nordic traits, physique and physical fitness and procreation: German mothers were encouraged in a variety of ways to have many children. New icons of perfect aryan children were promoted in the culture of the time. Early in the Reich, doctors were recruited to the field of Eugenics: one of Hitler's more prominent doctors published research in Margaret Sanger's journal on Birth Control in the United States. By the time research and experimentation in Eugenics hit the Concentration Camps, it had already been well-developed. Volumes had been written and compiled on racial features and characteristics and the measurement thereof. "

Eugenics in the holocaust or shoah: Human Engineering in the US, Britain and Germany including forced sterilization, the search for a Master Race, and the extermination of the mentally retarded, mentally ill, Jews, chronically unemployed, epileptics,

 

[blu]

Genetic engineering is wrong. Forced sterilization is wrong. It always has and always will end badly. And the people who support such things are disgusting pieces of shit who don't even deserve the time of day.

you make such well thought out points

 

[blu]

What arrogant pieces of shit you are.

And ignorant besides.

"They were training youth from the cradle in their new philosophies and goals with a strong emphasis on nordic traits, physique and physical fitness and procreation: German mothers were encouraged in a variety of ways to have many children. New icons of perfect aryan children were promoted in the culture of the time. Early in the Reich, doctors were recruited to the field of Eugenics: one of Hitler's more prominent doctors published research in Margaret Sanger's journal on Birth Control in the United States. By the time research and experimentation in Eugenics hit the Concentration Camps, it had already been well-developed. Volumes had been written and compiled on racial features and characteristics and the measurement thereof. "

Eugenics in the holocaust or shoah: Human Engineering in the US, Britain and Germany including forced sterilization, the search for a Master Race, and the extermination of the mentally retarded, mentally ill, Jews, chronically unemployed, epileptics,

who was this directed at?

also nazi eugenics != eugenics. please avoid that fallacy

 

[AllieBaba]

"Sanger is known as a crusader for contraceptive rights; but few know that her concern for contraception was based firmly on concern for racial control. Her early work in impoverished environments led her to the belief that 'genetically inferior' persons should have less children, and that centers for birth control should be 'wisely' placed in neighborhoods which were impoverished, which also frequently happened to be in minority settings."

Gosh, sound like anyone on this thread?

Eugenics in the holocaust or shoah: Human Engineering in the US, Britain and Germany including forced sterilization, the search for a Master Race, and the extermination of the mentally retarded, mentally ill, Jews, chronically unemployed, epileptics,

 

[xotoxi]

When a women goes to a sperm bank to get a sample for artificial fertilization, isn't she choosing what traits her child will have?

For those of you who are against people deciding what traits their child has, would you advocate sperm banks to be comprised of a large vat of mystery semen and the woman is just given a ladle?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

When a women goes to a sperm bank to get a sample for artificial fertilization, isn't she choosing what traits her child will have?

For those of you who are against people deciding what traits their child has, would you advocate sperm banks to be comprised of a large vat of mystery semen and the woman is just given a ladle?

There is a major difference between picking sperm in the misguided hope that the donor and the sperm bank are honest, and deliberately attempting to eliminate certain traits because you think they are undesirable.