Empirical Falsification Of the CAGW meme.

[Wuwei]

Of course it's conduction when collisions occur. Don't use that simple fact to skirt the issue that the existence of IR at 15 microns still warms the air contrary to your blanket statement that engineers say it doesn't. (They were referring to near IR not far IR.)

IR does not warm the air...there is IR at a wide range of frequencies...and far more of it..CO2 absorbs it then either emits it on towards cooler areas or loses the energy via collision...it does not warm the air...infrared radiation does not warm the air...and once again, you are a blithering idiot...they specifically said that far IR does not warm the air.

Rather than go back through them all, which all say the same thing...being physics and all, I will only visit one...

They say: " Radiant heat does not heat air – which holds little heat and rapidly disperses."

then they go on to describe their own radiant heaters "This “watt density” as it is called projects Far Infrared within a 2.5 to 3 metre distance from the heater (which spreads out radially from the panel to cover an arc up to 5 metres by 5 metres depending on panel power). This coverage is perfect for domestic or office “comfort” heating."

If you had bothered to look, and actually try to comprehend what was being said rather than looking for some rational way to dismiss millions of hours of observation of industrial application, you would have seen that they were all talking about far IR...

Do you never tire of being wrong?

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

 

[SSDD]

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

I understand perfectly..you, on the other hand are completely ignorant on the topic. Since you apparently lack the intellectual wattage to do any research on your own, here...from "my" engineers.


Far Infrared Heating. It’s heating, Jim, but not as we know it!

Far Infrared comes in many forms these days – wall & ceiling panels, underfloor heating, and even domestic hot water (DHW) and ‘wet’ central heating systems. Whatever the form, they all use the same principle of generating FIR by passing electric current through a panel containing layers of carbon graphite polyimide, copper, nickel & nano silver to around 100c at which point long wave infra read / FIR is emitted. Unlike a traditional electric room heater, FIR is only absorbed by ‘matter’ and not air, so it does not rely on convection for heat transfer. The theory goes that as you are not heating air, but matter, far less energy is required to heat the same space than traditional electric heaters.

Types of Infrared Heater: Near, Middlewave and Far IR

"Far infrared”, “IRC”, “Long wave” or “Dark Radiators” operate in the wavelengths above 3 microns. Far Infrared elements emit much lower temperatures, typically around the 100°C mark and no visible light. Human and animal skin absorbs Far infrared specifically well, because of its 80% water composition, making Far Infrared a biologically significant heating wavelength for humans and animals.

Far Infrared heaters use a number of different elements, with popular ones being nickel or fecralloy wiring or more recently carbon fibre.

Because of their lower temperatures, applications of “Far Infrared” heating include Domestic, Commercial and Public “comfort” heating applications. It is also also used extensively in modern saunas."


Infrared Heating Technology - Clinically-tested Solocarbon® Heaters

"Sunlighten Solocarbon far infrared heating panels are the most effective far infrared sauna heaters on the market today. Scientific research shows that far infrared is most therapeutic in high concentrations. Solocarbon panels are proven 95% emissive, meaning that 95% of the energy being produced is in the therapeutic range to increase core body temperature for a deep, detoxifying sweat."


Infrared heater - Wikipedia

"Far-infrared
This heating technology is used in some expensive infrared saunas. It is also found in space heaters. These heaters use low watt density ceramic emitters (usually fairly big panels) which emit long wave infrared radiation. Because the heating elements are at a relatively low temperature, far-infrared heaters do not give emissions and smell from dust, dirt, formaldehyde, toxic fumes from paint-coating, etc. This has made this type of space heating very popular among people with severe allergies and multiple chemical sensitivity in Europe. Because far infrared technology does not heat the air of the room directly, it is important to maximize the exposure of available surfaces which then re-emit the warmth to provide an even all round ambient warmth."


Benefits of Far Infrared Heating

"Far infrared heating utilizes far-infrared waves which are defined as electromagnetic waves having a wavelength of more than 4 µm. These far-infrared waves (rays with a peak wavelength of 8-14µm) are capable of deeply penetrating the human body, gently elevating the body’s surface temperature, and naturally stimulating other major bodily functions (1). In China, Japan, and Korea far infrared radiation has been widely applied in health promotion (2-4), food preservation (5 and 6), and in treatment of many vascular-related disorders (7 and 8).


Infrared Heating | Electric Panel Heaters | Redwell GB

"Recent years have seen far infrared technology adapted into attractive, effective heating products for home, office, retail and commercial settings."


and on and on I could go...far IR is absorbed by solid matter...not the air. Once again..do you never tire of being wrong?

 

[Wuwei]

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

I understand perfectly..you, on the other hand are completely ignorant on the topic. Since you apparently lack the intellectual wattage to do any research on your own, here...from "my" engineers.


Far Infrared Heating. It’s heating, Jim, but not as we know it!

Far Infrared comes in many forms these days – wall & ceiling panels, underfloor heating, and even domestic hot water (DHW) and ‘wet’ central heating systems. Whatever the form, they all use the same principle of generating FIR by passing electric current through a panel containing layers of carbon graphite polyimide, copper, nickel & nano silver to around 100c at which point long wave infra read / FIR is emitted. Unlike a traditional electric room heater, FIR is only absorbed by ‘matter’ and not air, so it does not rely on convection for heat transfer. The theory goes that as you are not heating air, but matter, far less energy is required to heat the same space than traditional electric heaters.

Types of Infrared Heater: Near, Middlewave and Far IR

"Far infrared”, “IRC”, “Long wave” or “Dark Radiators” operate in the wavelengths above 3 microns. Far Infrared elements emit much lower temperatures, typically around the 100°C mark and no visible light. Human and animal skin absorbs Far infrared specifically well, because of its 80% water composition, making Far Infrared a biologically significant heating wavelength for humans and animals.

Far Infrared heaters use a number of different elements, with popular ones being nickel or fecralloy wiring or more recently carbon fibre.

Because of their lower temperatures, applications of “Far Infrared” heating include Domestic, Commercial and Public “comfort” heating applications. It is also also used extensively in modern saunas."


Infrared Heating Technology - Clinically-tested Solocarbon® Heaters

"Sunlighten Solocarbon far infrared heating panels are the most effective far infrared sauna heaters on the market today. Scientific research shows that far infrared is most therapeutic in high concentrations. Solocarbon panels are proven 95% emissive, meaning that 95% of the energy being produced is in the therapeutic range to increase core body temperature for a deep, detoxifying sweat."


Infrared heater - Wikipedia

"Far-infrared
This heating technology is used in some expensive infrared saunas. It is also found in space heaters. These heaters use low watt density ceramic emitters (usually fairly big panels) which emit long wave infrared radiation. Because the heating elements are at a relatively low temperature, far-infrared heaters do not give emissions and smell from dust, dirt, formaldehyde, toxic fumes from paint-coating, etc. This has made this type of space heating very popular among people with severe allergies and multiple chemical sensitivity in Europe. Because far infrared technology does not heat the air of the room directly, it is important to maximize the exposure of available surfaces which then re-emit the warmth to provide an even all round ambient warmth."


Benefits of Far Infrared Heating

"Far infrared heating utilizes far-infrared waves which are defined as electromagnetic waves having a wavelength of more than 4 µm. These far-infrared waves (rays with a peak wavelength of 8-14µm) are capable of deeply penetrating the human body, gently elevating the body’s surface temperature, and naturally stimulating other major bodily functions (1). In China, Japan, and Korea far infrared radiation has been widely applied in health promotion (2-4), food preservation (5 and 6), and in treatment of many vascular-related disorders (7 and 8).


Infrared Heating | Electric Panel Heaters | Redwell GB

"Recent years have seen far infrared technology adapted into attractive, effective heating products for home, office, retail and commercial settings."


and on and on I could go...far IR is absorbed by solid matter...not the air. Once again..do you never tire of being wrong?

The references are correct, but you are not. You didn't do enough research.

Look up Beer-Lambert law, and absorption length of CO2 at atmospheric densities. You will find that at around 25 meters CO2 absorption is reduced by about 1/3. At around 3 meters, the size of a room, the absorption is exponentially smaller. So your references are correct for a room of standard size: CO2 absorption is negligible, since CO2 absorbs only some of the wavelengths, and the distances are so small.

But you can't extrapolate that negligibility to the thousands of meters of the atmosphere where CO2 absorption becomes very strong.

Again, when you try to use information from the web, you have to understand under what circumstances the information is valid, and where it does not apply. You have a penchant for going to the web, finding words that seem to be related to your argument, and ignoring the context that makes the information irrelevant.

 

[IanC]

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

I understand perfectly..you, on the other hand are completely ignorant on the topic. Since you apparently lack the intellectual wattage to do any research on your own, here...from "my" engineers.


Far Infrared Heating. It’s heating, Jim, but not as we know it!

Far Infrared comes in many forms these days – wall & ceiling panels, underfloor heating, and even domestic hot water (DHW) and ‘wet’ central heating systems. Whatever the form, they all use the same principle of generating FIR by passing electric current through a panel containing layers of carbon graphite polyimide, copper, nickel & nano silver to around 100c at which point long wave infra read / FIR is emitted. Unlike a traditional electric room heater, FIR is only absorbed by ‘matter’ and not air, so it does not rely on convection for heat transfer. The theory goes that as you are not heating air, but matter, far less energy is required to heat the same space than traditional electric heaters.

Types of Infrared Heater: Near, Middlewave and Far IR

"Far infrared”, “IRC”, “Long wave” or “Dark Radiators” operate in the wavelengths above 3 microns. Far Infrared elements emit much lower temperatures, typically around the 100°C mark and no visible light. Human and animal skin absorbs Far infrared specifically well, because of its 80% water composition, making Far Infrared a biologically significant heating wavelength for humans and animals.

Far Infrared heaters use a number of different elements, with popular ones being nickel or fecralloy wiring or more recently carbon fibre.

Because of their lower temperatures, applications of “Far Infrared” heating include Domestic, Commercial and Public “comfort” heating applications. It is also also used extensively in modern saunas."


Infrared Heating Technology - Clinically-tested Solocarbon® Heaters

"Sunlighten Solocarbon far infrared heating panels are the most effective far infrared sauna heaters on the market today. Scientific research shows that far infrared is most therapeutic in high concentrations. Solocarbon panels are proven 95% emissive, meaning that 95% of the energy being produced is in the therapeutic range to increase core body temperature for a deep, detoxifying sweat."


Infrared heater - Wikipedia

"Far-infrared
This heating technology is used in some expensive infrared saunas. It is also found in space heaters. These heaters use low watt density ceramic emitters (usually fairly big panels) which emit long wave infrared radiation. Because the heating elements are at a relatively low temperature, far-infrared heaters do not give emissions and smell from dust, dirt, formaldehyde, toxic fumes from paint-coating, etc. This has made this type of space heating very popular among people with severe allergies and multiple chemical sensitivity in Europe. Because far infrared technology does not heat the air of the room directly, it is important to maximize the exposure of available surfaces which then re-emit the warmth to provide an even all round ambient warmth."


Benefits of Far Infrared Heating

"Far infrared heating utilizes far-infrared waves which are defined as electromagnetic waves having a wavelength of more than 4 µm. These far-infrared waves (rays with a peak wavelength of 8-14µm) are capable of deeply penetrating the human body, gently elevating the body’s surface temperature, and naturally stimulating other major bodily functions (1). In China, Japan, and Korea far infrared radiation has been widely applied in health promotion (2-4), food preservation (5 and 6), and in treatment of many vascular-related disorders (7 and 8).


Infrared Heating | Electric Panel Heaters | Redwell GB

"Recent years have seen far infrared technology adapted into attractive, effective heating products for home, office, retail and commercial settings."


and on and on I could go...far IR is absorbed by solid matter...not the air. Once again..do you never tire of being wrong?

Interesting new technology.

My house has hot water in-floor radiant heating, and I can attest that it is far superior to forced air heating.

That said, it does not change the radiative physics of the atmosphere. You are saying IR is inefficient at warming air molecules compared to solid or liquid surfaces. I totally agree, and always have. I also agree that conduction and convection are more efficient than radiation for cooling or heating purposes. So what?

The Earth only loses energy by radiation. The importance of this point cannot be overstated. It doesn't really matter how effective conduction and convection are in moving energy around, it doesn't really matter that radiation is more effective at warming solids than gases. It only matters that radiation is the only way to leave the Earth/Atmosphere system.

Your links are making a general statement, an oversimplification by saying IR does not warm the air. Perhaps only 1%, or 5% of the radiated energy is absorbed by the air in the short distance between the heater and the solid objects around it.

The Earth's surface is radiating towards space. The radiation covers a range of IR wavelengths. Some wavelengths do not interact with the atmosphere at all and simply escape to space, which allows the surface to cool. But some wavelengths do interact with the atmosphere and are absorbed, warming the air.

I will make my own general, oversimplified statement, which ignores the conduction and convection that happens in the atmosphere when IR is absorbed. The absorbed surface IR is reemited in a random direction. Half towards space, half towards the surface.

At wavelengths that are not absorbed by the atmosphere the surface gets a full watt of cooling for every watt emitted. For wavelengths absorbed by the atmosphere, the surface loses only half a watt of cooling per watt emitted because the atmosphere returns half a watt back to the surface and the other half escapes to space.

Of course it is much more complicated than that. The thing to remember is that the radiation produced by the radiative gases that escapes to space is always emitted at a height that is cooler than the temperature at the surface.

 

[SSDD]

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

I understand perfectly..you, on the other hand are completely ignorant on the topic. Since you apparently lack the intellectual wattage to do any research on your own, here...from "my" engineers.


Far Infrared Heating. It’s heating, Jim, but not as we know it!

Far Infrared comes in many forms these days – wall & ceiling panels, underfloor heating, and even domestic hot water (DHW) and ‘wet’ central heating systems. Whatever the form, they all use the same principle of generating FIR by passing electric current through a panel containing layers of carbon graphite polyimide, copper, nickel & nano silver to around 100c at which point long wave infra read / FIR is emitted. Unlike a traditional electric room heater, FIR is only absorbed by ‘matter’ and not air, so it does not rely on convection for heat transfer. The theory goes that as you are not heating air, but matter, far less energy is required to heat the same space than traditional electric heaters.

Types of Infrared Heater: Near, Middlewave and Far IR

"Far infrared”, “IRC”, “Long wave” or “Dark Radiators” operate in the wavelengths above 3 microns. Far Infrared elements emit much lower temperatures, typically around the 100°C mark and no visible light. Human and animal skin absorbs Far infrared specifically well, because of its 80% water composition, making Far Infrared a biologically significant heating wavelength for humans and animals.

Far Infrared heaters use a number of different elements, with popular ones being nickel or fecralloy wiring or more recently carbon fibre.

Because of their lower temperatures, applications of “Far Infrared” heating include Domestic, Commercial and Public “comfort” heating applications. It is also also used extensively in modern saunas."


Infrared Heating Technology - Clinically-tested Solocarbon® Heaters

"Sunlighten Solocarbon far infrared heating panels are the most effective far infrared sauna heaters on the market today. Scientific research shows that far infrared is most therapeutic in high concentrations. Solocarbon panels are proven 95% emissive, meaning that 95% of the energy being produced is in the therapeutic range to increase core body temperature for a deep, detoxifying sweat."


Infrared heater - Wikipedia

"Far-infrared
This heating technology is used in some expensive infrared saunas. It is also found in space heaters. These heaters use low watt density ceramic emitters (usually fairly big panels) which emit long wave infrared radiation. Because the heating elements are at a relatively low temperature, far-infrared heaters do not give emissions and smell from dust, dirt, formaldehyde, toxic fumes from paint-coating, etc. This has made this type of space heating very popular among people with severe allergies and multiple chemical sensitivity in Europe. Because far infrared technology does not heat the air of the room directly, it is important to maximize the exposure of available surfaces which then re-emit the warmth to provide an even all round ambient warmth."


Benefits of Far Infrared Heating

"Far infrared heating utilizes far-infrared waves which are defined as electromagnetic waves having a wavelength of more than 4 µm. These far-infrared waves (rays with a peak wavelength of 8-14µm) are capable of deeply penetrating the human body, gently elevating the body’s surface temperature, and naturally stimulating other major bodily functions (1). In China, Japan, and Korea far infrared radiation has been widely applied in health promotion (2-4), food preservation (5 and 6), and in treatment of many vascular-related disorders (7 and 8).


Infrared Heating | Electric Panel Heaters | Redwell GB

"Recent years have seen far infrared technology adapted into attractive, effective heating products for home, office, retail and commercial settings."


and on and on I could go...far IR is absorbed by solid matter...not the air. Once again..do you never tire of being wrong?

The references are correct, but you are not. You didn't do enough research.

Look up Beer-Lambert law, and absorption length of CO2 at atmospheric densities. You will find that at around 25 meters CO2 absorption is reduced by about 1/3. At around 3 meters, the size of a room, the absorption is exponentially smaller. So your references are correct for a room of standard size: CO2 absorption is negligible, since CO2 absorbs only some of the wavelengths, and the distances are so small.

But you can't extrapolate that negligibility to the thousands of meters of the atmosphere where CO2 absorption becomes very strong.

Again, when you try to use information from the web, you have to understand under what circumstances the information is valid, and where it does not apply. You have a penchant for going to the web, finding words that seem to be related to your argument, and ignoring the context that makes the information irrelevant.

You just don't have a clue do you? Who is saying that CO2 doesn't absorb IR? No one is even starting to make that argument...absorption and emission, however, do not mean warming. Infrared does not warm the air.

 

[SSDD]

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

I understand perfectly..you, on the other hand are completely ignorant on the topic. Since you apparently lack the intellectual wattage to do any research on your own, here...from "my" engineers.


Far Infrared Heating. It’s heating, Jim, but not as we know it!

Far Infrared comes in many forms these days – wall & ceiling panels, underfloor heating, and even domestic hot water (DHW) and ‘wet’ central heating systems. Whatever the form, they all use the same principle of generating FIR by passing electric current through a panel containing layers of carbon graphite polyimide, copper, nickel & nano silver to around 100c at which point long wave infra read / FIR is emitted. Unlike a traditional electric room heater, FIR is only absorbed by ‘matter’ and not air, so it does not rely on convection for heat transfer. The theory goes that as you are not heating air, but matter, far less energy is required to heat the same space than traditional electric heaters.

Types of Infrared Heater: Near, Middlewave and Far IR

"Far infrared”, “IRC”, “Long wave” or “Dark Radiators” operate in the wavelengths above 3 microns. Far Infrared elements emit much lower temperatures, typically around the 100°C mark and no visible light. Human and animal skin absorbs Far infrared specifically well, because of its 80% water composition, making Far Infrared a biologically significant heating wavelength for humans and animals.

Far Infrared heaters use a number of different elements, with popular ones being nickel or fecralloy wiring or more recently carbon fibre.

Because of their lower temperatures, applications of “Far Infrared” heating include Domestic, Commercial and Public “comfort” heating applications. It is also also used extensively in modern saunas."


Infrared Heating Technology - Clinically-tested Solocarbon® Heaters

"Sunlighten Solocarbon far infrared heating panels are the most effective far infrared sauna heaters on the market today. Scientific research shows that far infrared is most therapeutic in high concentrations. Solocarbon panels are proven 95% emissive, meaning that 95% of the energy being produced is in the therapeutic range to increase core body temperature for a deep, detoxifying sweat."


Infrared heater - Wikipedia

"Far-infrared
This heating technology is used in some expensive infrared saunas. It is also found in space heaters. These heaters use low watt density ceramic emitters (usually fairly big panels) which emit long wave infrared radiation. Because the heating elements are at a relatively low temperature, far-infrared heaters do not give emissions and smell from dust, dirt, formaldehyde, toxic fumes from paint-coating, etc. This has made this type of space heating very popular among people with severe allergies and multiple chemical sensitivity in Europe. Because far infrared technology does not heat the air of the room directly, it is important to maximize the exposure of available surfaces which then re-emit the warmth to provide an even all round ambient warmth."


Benefits of Far Infrared Heating

"Far infrared heating utilizes far-infrared waves which are defined as electromagnetic waves having a wavelength of more than 4 µm. These far-infrared waves (rays with a peak wavelength of 8-14µm) are capable of deeply penetrating the human body, gently elevating the body’s surface temperature, and naturally stimulating other major bodily functions (1). In China, Japan, and Korea far infrared radiation has been widely applied in health promotion (2-4), food preservation (5 and 6), and in treatment of many vascular-related disorders (7 and 8).


Infrared Heating | Electric Panel Heaters | Redwell GB

"Recent years have seen far infrared technology adapted into attractive, effective heating products for home, office, retail and commercial settings."


and on and on I could go...far IR is absorbed by solid matter...not the air. Once again..do you never tire of being wrong?

Interesting new technology.

My house has hot water in-floor radiant heating, and I can attest that it is far superior to forced air heating.

That said, it does not change the radiative physics of the atmosphere. You are saying IR is inefficient at warming air molecules compared to solid or liquid surfaces. I totally agree, and always have. I also agree that conduction and convection are more efficient than radiation for cooling or heating purposes. So what?

The Earth only loses energy by radiation. The importance of this point cannot be overstated. It doesn't really matter how effective conduction and convection are in moving energy around, it doesn't really matter that radiation is more effective at warming solids than gases. It only matters that radiation is the only way to leave the Earth/Atmosphere system.

Your links are making a general statement, an oversimplification by saying IR does not warm the air. Perhaps only 1%, or 5% of the radiated energy is absorbed by the air in the short distance between the heater and the solid objects around it.

The Earth's surface is radiating towards space. The radiation covers a range of IR wavelengths. Some wavelengths do not interact with the atmosphere at all and simply escape to space, which allows the surface to cool. But some wavelengths do interact with the atmosphere and are absorbed, warming the air.

I will make my own general, oversimplified statement, which ignores the conduction and convection that happens in the atmosphere when IR is absorbed. The absorbed surface IR is reemited in a random direction. Half towards space, half towards the surface.

At wavelengths that are not absorbed by the atmosphere the surface gets a full watt of cooling for every watt emitted. For wavelengths absorbed by the atmosphere, the surface loses only half a watt of cooling per watt emitted because the atmosphere returns half a watt back to the surface and the other half escapes to space.

Of course it is much more complicated than that. The thing to remember is that the radiation produced by the radiative gases that escapes to space is always emitted at a height that is cooler than the temperature at the surface.

Radiation only becomes an actual player in the energy transport out to space above the troposphere...and at that point, it is irrelevant to the so called greenhouse effect. Infrared does not warm the atmosphere...and it does not impede the movement of energy out of the atmosphere...to suggest that so called greenhouse gasses, which raise the emissivity of the atmosphere would cause warming is...in a word..stupid. So called greenhouse gasses serve to help the atmosphere bleed off energy more quickly...that is what increasing emissivity does...you chose the wrong horse..the hypothesis has failed because a piss poor understanding of physics is at the basis of the hypothesis.

 

[Wuwei]

You just don't have a clue do you? Who is saying that CO2 doesn't absorb IR? No one is even starting to make that argument...absorption and emission, however, do not mean warming. Infrared does not warm the air.

CO2 is negligible in warming air in small areas such as rooms. But it does warm the atmosphere. What you don't realize is that you virtually said it yourself.

 

[IanC]

You still don't understand the difference between near IR and far IR.
Near IR: the shorter wavelengths from a plug-in heater.
Far IR: the longer wavelengths from the earth.

They have different properties with air. Your engineers were only concerned about near IR.

I understand perfectly..you, on the other hand are completely ignorant on the topic. Since you apparently lack the intellectual wattage to do any research on your own, here...from "my" engineers.


Far Infrared Heating. It’s heating, Jim, but not as we know it!

Far Infrared comes in many forms these days – wall & ceiling panels, underfloor heating, and even domestic hot water (DHW) and ‘wet’ central heating systems. Whatever the form, they all use the same principle of generating FIR by passing electric current through a panel containing layers of carbon graphite polyimide, copper, nickel & nano silver to around 100c at which point long wave infra read / FIR is emitted. Unlike a traditional electric room heater, FIR is only absorbed by ‘matter’ and not air, so it does not rely on convection for heat transfer. The theory goes that as you are not heating air, but matter, far less energy is required to heat the same space than traditional electric heaters.

Types of Infrared Heater: Near, Middlewave and Far IR

"Far infrared”, “IRC”, “Long wave” or “Dark Radiators” operate in the wavelengths above 3 microns. Far Infrared elements emit much lower temperatures, typically around the 100°C mark and no visible light. Human and animal skin absorbs Far infrared specifically well, because of its 80% water composition, making Far Infrared a biologically significant heating wavelength for humans and animals.

Far Infrared heaters use a number of different elements, with popular ones being nickel or fecralloy wiring or more recently carbon fibre.

Because of their lower temperatures, applications of “Far Infrared” heating include Domestic, Commercial and Public “comfort” heating applications. It is also also used extensively in modern saunas."


Infrared Heating Technology - Clinically-tested Solocarbon® Heaters

"Sunlighten Solocarbon far infrared heating panels are the most effective far infrared sauna heaters on the market today. Scientific research shows that far infrared is most therapeutic in high concentrations. Solocarbon panels are proven 95% emissive, meaning that 95% of the energy being produced is in the therapeutic range to increase core body temperature for a deep, detoxifying sweat."


Infrared heater - Wikipedia

"Far-infrared
This heating technology is used in some expensive infrared saunas. It is also found in space heaters. These heaters use low watt density ceramic emitters (usually fairly big panels) which emit long wave infrared radiation. Because the heating elements are at a relatively low temperature, far-infrared heaters do not give emissions and smell from dust, dirt, formaldehyde, toxic fumes from paint-coating, etc. This has made this type of space heating very popular among people with severe allergies and multiple chemical sensitivity in Europe. Because far infrared technology does not heat the air of the room directly, it is important to maximize the exposure of available surfaces which then re-emit the warmth to provide an even all round ambient warmth."


Benefits of Far Infrared Heating

"Far infrared heating utilizes far-infrared waves which are defined as electromagnetic waves having a wavelength of more than 4 µm. These far-infrared waves (rays with a peak wavelength of 8-14µm) are capable of deeply penetrating the human body, gently elevating the body’s surface temperature, and naturally stimulating other major bodily functions (1). In China, Japan, and Korea far infrared radiation has been widely applied in health promotion (2-4), food preservation (5 and 6), and in treatment of many vascular-related disorders (7 and 8).


Infrared Heating | Electric Panel Heaters | Redwell GB

"Recent years have seen far infrared technology adapted into attractive, effective heating products for home, office, retail and commercial settings."


and on and on I could go...far IR is absorbed by solid matter...not the air. Once again..do you never tire of being wrong?

The references are correct, but you are not. You didn't do enough research.

Look up Beer-Lambert law, and absorption length of CO2 at atmospheric densities. You will find that at around 25 meters CO2 absorption is reduced by about 1/3. At around 3 meters, the size of a room, the absorption is exponentially smaller. So your references are correct for a room of standard size: CO2 absorption is negligible, since CO2 absorbs only some of the wavelengths, and the distances are so small.

But you can't extrapolate that negligibility to the thousands of meters of the atmosphere where CO2 absorption becomes very strong.

Again, when you try to use information from the web, you have to understand under what circumstances the information is valid, and where it does not apply. You have a penchant for going to the web, finding words that seem to be related to your argument, and ignoring the context that makes the information irrelevant.

You just don't have a clue do you? Who is saying that CO2 doesn't absorb IR? No one is even starting to make that argument...absorption and emission, however, do not mean warming. Infrared does not warm the air.

You can't have it both ways. Either the GHGs absorb and then immediately re-emit half back to the surface, with no atmospheric warming but direct energy addition to the surface.

Or you can have GHG absorbing the energy and warming the atmosphere, which reduces the amount of energy conducted into the atmosphere.

Either way, the surface is shedding less energy than if there was no GHGs in the air.

In reality both pathways are being used.

 

[IanC]

I never said that...I said that when IR is absorbed by all so called greenhouse gasses except water vapor, it is immediately emitted on to a cooler area, or in the vast majority of instances, it is transferred to another molecule via collision

We are still waiting for you to explain how radiation energy is retained by water vapour in a different fashion than other greenhouse gases.

Are you ever going to explain your claim?

 

[IanC]

Radiation only becomes an actual player in the energy transport out to space above the troposphere...and at that point, it is irrelevant to the so called greenhouse effect. Infrared does not warm the atmosphere...and it does not impede the movement of energy out of the atmosphere...to suggest that so called greenhouse gasses, which raise the emissivity of the atmosphere would cause warming is...in a word..stupid. So called greenhouse gasses serve to help the atmosphere bleed off energy more quickly...that is what increasing emissivity does...you chose the wrong horse..the hypothesis has failed because a piss poor understanding of physics is at the basis of the hypothesis.

Emmisivity is what allows surface radiation to enter the atmosphere at lower heights, transforming that energy into kinetic energy by molecular collision.

Emmisivity is what allows atmospheric kinetic energy to be transformed into radiation that can escape to space if the air density is low enough that it does not get reabsorbed.

The surface is warmer than the emission height, therefore more energy goes into the atmosphere than leaves it, for any wavelengths reacting with GHGs. The only other pathway out of the atmosphere is back to the surface by conduction.

 

[SSDD]

You can't have it both ways. Either the GHGs absorb and then immediately re-emit half back to the surface, with no atmospheric warming but direct energy addition to the surface.

You forgot to mention the 2nd law of thermodynamics way where the energy that is absorbed and is actually re radiated is emitted towards cooler areas since the second law says that energy can't spontaneously move from cool to warm. Energy does not emit towards warmer areas and the ground is warmer except in rare instances of temperature inversion where the ground is cooler than the air.

Or you can have GHG absorbing the energy and warming the atmosphere, which reduces the amount of energy conducted into the atmosphere.

IR does not warm the air...the air is warmed by conduction...energy exchange via molecular collision....not infrared radiation.

Either way, the surface is shedding less energy than if there was no GHGs in the air.

No ian...adding so called greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere increases its emissivity..that allows the earth to shed more energy...suggesting that by increasing the emissivity of the atmosphere, the earth would be warmed is just plain stupid.

 

[SSDD]

I never said that...I said that when IR is absorbed by all so called greenhouse gasses except water vapor, it is immediately emitted on to a cooler area, or in the vast majority of instances, it is transferred to another molecule via collision

We are still waiting for you to explain how radiation energy is retained by water vapour in a different fashion than other greenhouse gases.

Are you ever going to explain your claim?

I have and am not playing that game with you. No gas known to man other than water vapor can retain energy at atmospheric temperatures and pressures..your ridiculous comment about water vapor "scattering" IR and therefore causing it to be warmer in humid areas at night was one of the stupidest things you have said thus far....did you get that from wuwei...you believe scattering energy results in warming?

 

[SSDD]

Radiation only becomes an actual player in the energy transport out to space above the troposphere...and at that point, it is irrelevant to the so called greenhouse effect. Infrared does not warm the atmosphere...and it does not impede the movement of energy out of the atmosphere...to suggest that so called greenhouse gasses, which raise the emissivity of the atmosphere would cause warming is...in a word..stupid. So called greenhouse gasses serve to help the atmosphere bleed off energy more quickly...that is what increasing emissivity does...you chose the wrong horse..the hypothesis has failed because a piss poor understanding of physics is at the basis of the hypothesis.

Emmisivity is what allows surface radiation to enter the atmosphere at lower heights, transforming that energy into kinetic energy by molecular collision.

Emmisivity is what allows atmospheric kinetic energy to be transformed into radiation that can escape to space if the air density is low enough that it does not get reabsorbed.

The surface is warmer than the emission height, therefore more energy goes into the atmosphere than leaves it, for any wavelengths reacting with GHGs. The only other pathway out of the atmosphere is back to the surface by conduction.

You are hopelessly lost in your beliefs ian...observation tells you that the hypothesis has failed and the only reason the hypothesis has failed is because the understanding of physics upon which it is based is terribly flawed...if it weren't then observation would match the hypothesis. Strange...and sad that you seem unable, or unwilling to grasp such an obvious fact.

 

[Wuwei]

IR does not warm the air...there is IR at a wide range of frequencies...and far more of it..CO2 absorbs it then either emits it on towards cooler areas or loses the energy via collision.

CO2 that absorbs IR is in an excited state. It loses energy by the predominate process, collision, which is transferring the IR energy to the molecule that it collided with.

The energy transfer cycle is
1. IR strikes CO2.
2. CO2 transfers energy to an air molecule via conduction.

That 2 step transfer process leads to increased kinetic energy of the air molecule in a random direction. That defines an increase in heat in the air.

Step 1 is negligibly small in a small room. But large in the atmosphere. That is because of the Beer-Lambert law. Therefore IR room heaters effectively don't heat the air in the room, but the outside earth can heat the air in the atmosphere.

 

[IanC]

No ian...adding so called greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere increases its emissivity..that allows the earth to shed more energy...suggesting that by increasing the emissivity of the atmosphere, the earth would be warmed is just plain stupid.

It's weird how you compartmentalize your thinking. It's like you can see a coin that is heads-up but you refuse to acknowledge the coin's existence if it is tails-up.

CO2 has one band of absorption/emission that we are interested in. 15 microns. At that wavelength it is a Blackbody. Any 15 micron photon that crosses paths with a CO2 molecule will be absorbed, causing the molecules to go into a higher energy state, an excited state.

There are two main pathways for the excited CO2 to get rid of this energy. It can reemit the 15 micron photon. Or the energy can be transferred into a different form during a collision with another molecule, turning the energy into atmospheric warming. Of course the opposite also happens, molecular collision can also excite a CO2 molecule causing 'cooling'.

There are two areas we are interested in. The surface boundary, and the height at which an emitted 15 micron photon is likely to escape into space.

All the surface emitted 15 micron radiation is quickly absorbed, most of it is thermalized by molecular collision, causing warming.

At the emission height, Atmospheric energy is turned into radiation that escapes which causes cooling.

In between these two levels the the energy just bounces back and forth, not causing warming or cooling.

The amount of 15 micron radiation energy going into the atmosphere is defined by the surface temperature. The amount of 15 micron radiation energy leaving at the emission height is defined by the temperature there.

Because the surface is warmer than the emission height that means more energy went into the atmosphere at the bottom than left at the top.

Where does the surplus energy from the 15 micron band go? Back to the surface via the conduction pathway.

 

[IanC]

What are the energy inputs to the atmosphere? Solar. The net surplus from GHGs. Latent heat from the water cycle.

What are the energy outputs? Conduction to the surface and some of the latent heat released at the cloudtops during precipitation.

That is why the atmosphere keeps us so much warmer. Energy that goes in has a helluva time getting out again. There is a huge amount of energy stored as potential (in the gravity field) and kinetic energies struggling to get out.

Basically the only cooling that happens is radiation from the surface that directly escapes to space, bypassing the atmosphere as if it wasn't there. And a secondary tranche at the quasi surface of the cloudtops which also emits a full spectrum of BB radiation from the liquid and solid forms of water.

Energy contained by the atmosphere must backtrack through the surface to escape.

Remember, we are very close to equilibrium. It is only changes that affect the equilibrium that will cause more energy to be stored, or less.

Doubling CO2 would push the 15 micron emission height higher, into a colder area. Therefore less radiation would be produced, less would escape, less cooling would happen. The atmosphere would start to warm because energy was being stored instead of escaping.

This new temperature gradient would eventually reach the surface, warming it as well. The warmer surface would emit more radiation that directly escapes to space, balancing the energy budget, and a new equilibrium is reached, albeit with warmer temperatures for both the atmosphere and surface.

The initial equilibrium and the second equilibrium both have the same input and output for the system as a whole.

It is the amount of stored energy that determines the temperature at the surface.

The same 340 Watts of solar input can result in a wide range of surface temperatures.

 

[IanC]

I never said that...I said that when IR is absorbed by all so called greenhouse gasses except water vapor, it is immediately emitted on to a cooler area, or in the vast majority of instances, it is transferred to another molecule via collision

We are still waiting for you to explain how radiation energy is retained by water vapour in a different fashion than other greenhouse gases.

Are you ever going to explain your claim?

I have and am not playing that game with you. No gas known to man other than water vapor can retain energy at atmospheric temperatures and pressures..your ridiculous comment about water vapor "scattering" IR and therefore causing it to be warmer in humid areas at night was one of the stupidest things you have said thus far....did you get that from wuwei...you believe scattering energy results in warming?

I disagree with the way you framed the question.

Water vapour randomizes the direction of the radiation. Instead of surface radiation heading only in the direction of space, you now have radiation in all directions for wavelengths that interact with water.

That results in less cooling.

It may be splitting hairs to make the distinction between warming and less cooling but it avoids some of the complications.

Do you disagree that intercepting and redirecting some of the radiation causes less cooling to happen?

Even your bizarre versions of the SLoT and S-B produce the same final answer. The surface would only be 'allowed' to produce half the radiation for water vapour affected wavelengths, and the H2O molecule would only be 'allowed' to radiate towards space.

Either way, only half of the energy is lost, only half the cooling happens.

 

[Wuwei]

I have and am not playing that game with you. No gas known to man other than water vapor can retain energy at atmospheric temperatures and pressures..your ridiculous comment about water vapor "scattering" IR and therefore causing it to be warmer in humid areas at night was one of the stupidest things you have said thus far....did you get that from wuwei...you believe scattering energy results in warming?

You are being disingenuous, to put it mildly. I never said scattering caused warming. Elastic scattering never causes warming. What can cause warming is absorption or partial absorption (inelastic scattering.)

 

[Billy_Bob]

So gravity affects these particles.. Why wouldnt the gravity within molecules also act the same way?

Grasp at straws much?

Just how many zeros would you need to describe the deflection of a photon by the gravity effect of an atom? One divided by googleplex to the power of googleplex?

If QM is to be believed, then the PHASE and POWER of the photon changes. Absorption will change the phase and power of the emitted photon as well. That means weaker power and phase takes very little change to deflect it or attract it.

I understand a whole lot about QM you seem to be unable to grasp.

The phase of LWIR (16-300um) does not allow photons to interact with our atmosphere and will not warm it until it hits a black body which it can warm. Then convection and conduction take over.

What a steaming pile of nonsense!

You aren't even trying to be coherent anymore. Get back on your meds.

Just Wow...

Partisan warmer BS...What a steaming pile of nonsense!

 

[Billy_Bob]

Water vapour randomizes the direction of the radiation. Instead of surface radiation heading only in the direction of space, you now have radiation in all directions for wavelengths that interact with water.

As with any molecule they will emit in random directions. The problems, especially with water vapor, is residency time that the molecule holds the energy and what happens to that energy during its residency.

With water vapor, the molecule holds absorbed energy, warming the molecule to a gas state consuming some of the energy, then cools as it rises until it re-nucleates, where it is released at much longer wave length and high in our atmosphere.

With CO2 the release is instantaneous..