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Palestine has borders. Israel does not. Israel sits inside Palestine's borders.
I'm sorry if that troubles you.
Palestine has borders. Israel does not. Israel sits inside Palestine's borders.
I'm sorry if that troubles you.
I'm not troubled at all. Israel continues in that it exists and is powerful. I want you to stand up and say what you think PF.
Rather than lying down and pretending there isn't a concerted effort to end Israel by those you support.
You are throwing in a lot here that does not relate to anything I said. I had already come across antisemetic stuff Mark Twain had written which is the reason it has puzzled me that pro Israelis like to quote him. He is not a reliable source. That is clear if you read what is said and whether you like the site or not the information is sourced.
Yes, I have been to Israel over 35 years ago I worked in a Kibbutz, spent some time in Jerusalem, Tel Aviiv, Eilat and in some small bedouin villages in the desert which I cannot remember the name of. My original bias was 100% Israeli and interestingly enough it was Jews in Israel who were the first people to point out to me I was not seeing the full picture.
The issue I am concerned about here is the stubborn desire to try to pretend that Palestinians do not have more of a native right to the area than Israelis.
That comes from the study spoken about here
Genetic studies bring new hope for peace between Jews and Palestinians
or you can look at an earlier study here Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
So this is what I see. Current Palestinians are at the very centre of Jewish genetics with a closer relationship to all Jews than the different Jewish groups have to themselves. They have almost certainly been living in that area for at least 3000 years though they may have moved about. There is quite simply no way that they cannot be at the centre of all the history there.
I am trying to argue reality not get into silly arguments. It is silly to say the Palestinians weren't there. Genetics prove it. Similarly if you look at MidEastWeb you will find that they say the max number of Arabs who came in around the time Jews were immigrating was 100000 and the likelihood was that they were people who had previously been living there anyway.
What your study proves is that Jews have been relatively homogenous for the last 2,000 years and that male Jews are more likely to marry converts than leave the tribe.
That doesn't mean that Palestinians are 'Caananites'. The Bedouin are probably the longest living group in the area, but their origins vary as well.
Genetics to NOT prove that the Palestinians were the 'ancient Caananites'. Not at all. Arabs have been moving in and out of the area for centuries. The current Pal population (including Arafat, I should add) doesn't have any more 'ingenious' claim than the Jews do.
I'm really sorry you buy into terrorist myths.
Personally, I don't think Palestine is any more Arab than the US is English. And it really does not matter.This is all just a name game to smokescreen the issue.
The reality is that the vast majority of Palestinians, be they Muslims, Christians, or Jews, have ancestor who go back hundreds even thousands of years. They and their ancestors built Palestine. It is theirs. They are the ones who have exclusive rights to their homeland.
If the 'Palestinians' had 'developed' the land and 'owned' it, why didn't they have their own state?
They had no nationality, no movement, no infrastructure.
Decisions are by those who show up. Life is not a spectator sport. And serious people don't get their history from Al Jazeera.
They had no nationality, no movement,
Decisions are by those who show up. Life is not a spectator sport. And serious people don't get their history from Al Jazeera.
I'm pointing out that it is very hard to take a nation from someone if the nation didn't exist. I'm pointing out that many of those Palestinians were Arabs living there - not nationalists, idealists, indigenous, or whatever. You can't be a 'citizen of Palestine' if 'Palestine' is part of the Ottoman Empire or British rule.
You too easily ignore what decades of violence does to a person on the Israeli side. I mean, I can sympathize with Bibi a little - his brother was killed in Operation Entebbe when the IDF tried to rescue hostages taken by the PLO - but I still hold him responsible for the things he says or does.
But you guys? Hamas apologists. Historical revisionists. It's all anti Israel. Israel stole this, did that, murdered them, bla bla bla, Jews control American foreign policy, waa waa. Always. Israel's. Fault.
I'm pointing out that it is very hard to take a nation from someone if the nation didn't exist.
Yup. One big fucking dino crater until the Elders of Zion filled it right up and built a Disneyland.
I'm pointing out that it is very hard to take a nation from someone if the nation didn't exist.
I'm pointing out that many of those Palestinians were Arabs living there
- not nationalists, idealists, indigenous, or whatever. You can't be a 'citizen of Palestine' if 'Palestine' is part of the Ottoman Empire or British rule.
]What your study proves is that Jews have been relatively homogenous for the last 2,000 years and that male Jews are more likely to marry converts than leave the tribe.
That doesn't mean that Palestinians are 'Caananites'. The Bedouin are probably the longest living group in the area, but their origins vary as well.
Genetics to NOT prove that the Palestinians were the 'ancient Caananites'. Not at all. Arabs have been moving in and out of the area for centuries. The current Pal population (including Arafat, I should add) doesn't have any more 'ingenious' claim than the Jews do.
I'm really sorry you buy into terrorist myths.
I see genetics all right when it suits your purpose. I said nothing about the Canaanites. Just reported what the research has shown which is that Palestinians are at the centre of Jewish ancestry having a closer relationship to the different clusters of Jews than the different clusters of Jews do to themselves. I read the research report. I have to wonder at your psyche which simply sees anything you do not want to see as a 'terrorist myth'. That reasoning is highly suspicious.
The Jews 'built' Palestine. That much has been demonstrated.
Did David unite the tribes of Israel into one nation and make Jerusalem their Capital? Modern archaeology is challenging the historical accuracy of this.
Very little evidence of this. Bible says David's empire flourished in the 10th century BC, but it lasted only 2 generations and it was usurped up by different rulers. It was not until the 20th Century 3,000 years under the conditions we all know that Israel again became an extensive fully fledged state.
David's Kingdom legitimises the existence of the Jewish State. The promised land for the chosen people.
The Egyptians had ruled this land for a long time then the philistines came from the west, probably from what is now Cyprus.
First king Saul's battle between David and Goliath is battle between David and Philistines.
Philistines were urban people and there is plenty of evidence of them. Archaeology shows the philistines were a cultured people.
The empire of the Philistines was real but what about the Empire on David?
Archaeology shows that settlement in the time of David, 1000 years BC were meagre, maybe just 20 villages, evidence of King David's nation building and not enough to build up even the smallest of armies. for nation building.
Finkelstein found that society at this time was comprises of shepherds and stock raising living in small groups bound together by kinship, family, clan and tribe.
Judah, David's apparent power base had no urban centre and the biblical projects attributed to his son Solomon never took place.
This view has been accepted in scholarly circles since the 1990's
2010 find Khirbet Qeiyafa Fortified walled town west of Judha, just beneath the surface. Dated to the time of King David
but
Prof Israel Finkelstein Tel Aviv University 9th Century not tenth
No evidence has been found to suggest that Jerusalem was the centre of an empire in the 10th century
That David united the Northern and Southern tribes into a fabulous empire, ruled from his stronghold in Jerusalem, remains just that, a claim, nothing more.
Source
BBC - BBC TV blog: The Bible's Buried Secrets
If you watch this you will find that the power came not from the time of king David but from later and from the area which is now the West Bank.
and we know that among the descendants of these people are the Palestinians.
You simply cannot have it both ways. Say you have a right to the area because some middle east genetics have been found in you and then yell 'terrorist' when it is found that the people who have been living there all the time are the people who are strongest in such genetics.
