Education Then and Now

[PoliticalChic]

The Teachers Union ensures that quality teachers never make more money than total fuck ups and incompetents

Teachers unions also make sure that a teaching positions do not become political appointee/crony positions.

You have no way of knowing that; this is pure conjecture.

 

[midcan5]

If you wish to retain your honor, I demand that you either refute or retract.

Refute what? Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow in life that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly. Actually it doesn't follow that any one thing is the cause. Check culture sometime.

Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about teachers or education across a wide spectrum of our citizenry. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.

Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why? Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the bottom of that line, possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.

Re: Finland

"Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org

"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647 Last debate on same subject here.


Repost: From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka

"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I don’t believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing about—constitutional law, for example, or sailing—a notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, don’t believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers’ speculation that’s so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, that’s so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. “Way I see it is,” a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, “if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for us.”

Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."

Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine

 

[uscitizen]

The Teachers Union ensures that quality teachers never make more money than total fuck ups and incompetents

Teachers unions also make sure that a teaching positions do not become political appointee/crony positions.

You have no way of knowing that; this is pure conjecture.

I am from and currently live in eastern KY. I know.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

hillarious. Here's an actual question from the examination i gave today in pre-calculus. For those that don't know, that's a freshman level course at college, or a junior or senior level high school course:

On a certain route, an airline carries 5000 passengers per month, each paying $30. A market survey indicates that for each $1 increase in the ticket price, the airline will lose 100 passengers. Find the ticket price that will maximize the airline's montly revenue for the route. What is the monthly revenue?

For the record, the basic equations in the problem are accessible to those that have had an 8th grade algebra course. The only "higher level" concept required is knowledge of parabolas.

Now, how many of the folks in this thread mocking education can answer this? How many can even set this up?

$40 per ticket.....$160,000 monthly revenue?

Well done!

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Hillarious. Here's an actual question from the examination I gave today in Pre-Calculus. For those that don't know, that's a freshman level course at College, or a Junior or Senior level high school course:

On a certain route, an airline carries 5000 passengers per month, each paying $30. A market survey indicates that for each $1 increase in the ticket price, the airline will lose 100 passengers. Find the ticket price that will maximize the airline's montly revenue for the route. What is the monthly revenue?

For the record, the basic equations in the problem are accessible to those that have had an 8th grade algebra course. The only "higher level" concept required is knowledge of parabolas.

I don't think you're getting the gist of this thread.

Btw, got the same answer as Missourian. At $40 a pop they would maximize their revenue at $160 000. That was a rather easy question, as a matter of fact. That's the sort of shit an 8th grader in the Czech republic could solve.

Well done!

I'm just tired of generalizations like the OP's joke when it comes to mathematics education. The questions I assign in math courses are essentially the same questions that have been asked since the 1950's. That, if anything, is part of the problem. We actually do need more innovation in our standards and methods when it comes to mathematics.

Americans do have the mathematical ability to be successful. When I went to graduate school, it was a commonly known fact that at the start of the process the foreign graduate students were far and away stronger. By the time the qualifiers rolled around, the Americans and foreign students tended to be on equal footing.

The ability is there. We desperately need to hold students to higher standards (which starts with parents), innovate our culture so students don't start predisposed against mathematics, and teach students more than just rote memorization.

 

[PoliticalChic]

If you wish to retain your honor, I demand that you either refute or retract.

Refute what? Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow in life that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly. Actually it doesn't follow that any one thing is the cause. Check culture sometime.

Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about teachers or education across a wide spectrum of our citizenry. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.

Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why? Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the bottom of that line, possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.

Re: Finland

"Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org

"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647 Last debate on same subject here.


Repost: From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka

"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I don’t believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing about—constitutional law, for example, or sailing—a notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, don’t believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers’ speculation that’s so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, that’s so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. “Way I see it is,” a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, “if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for us.”

Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."

Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine

I posted several references that prove that the premise of your post, i.e. "...We get the education we value, expect, and pay for, and this thread represents why." is absurd and blatently untrue.

Your bloviation:
"Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow in life that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly. Actually it doesn't follow that any one thing is the cause."

indicates, in fact, that you were unable to either document your point, or refute the citations.

As the saying goes, you "…countered these mountains of hard facts with a big helping of the usual supercilious sneering."


Let's review:
1. The product of schools in the United States have become an embarrassment.
2. The education system has become a financial black hole, where one can almost document the inverse relationship between appropriations and performance.
3. This thread is about the state of education, not about teachers.

and
4. Since you have neither refuted my citations, by providing illlusory data about how well American students are doing and/or improvements shown, nor retracted your obnubilations, you have exposed yourself as a dishonest partisan.

And that is the saddest part: you have turned this from an intellectual discussion into a screed.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Teachers unions also make sure that a teaching positions do not become political appointee/crony positions.

You have no way of knowing that; this is pure conjecture.

I am from and currently live in eastern KY. I know.

Personal kissing up is a tried and true method of obtaining promotion: it has nothing to do with labor unions.

I suggest you review Chester A. Arthur and the Pendelton Act.

 

[Granny]

Yeah, education in the 1950's sure was great if you were white.

Maybe so, but when Brown v. Board of Education gave blacks the opportunity to have the same education they thought white kids had, they blew it. Expectations were lowered and lowered to the point where there is no expectation today for blacks, whites or anybody else. Schools today are so screwed up it's pathetic. There's no discipline, no parental participation, and kids don't give a damn how crappy they look. It's a shame.

I'm sorry, but when I was in school there was no bullshit out of students, they worked damned hard for their grades, there was a dress code, all of my teachers has Masters Degrees in their particular subject and some of them were adjunct professions at the local colleges. We were expected to tow the line.

Desegration has been an abysmal failure not because it could not have worked but because it was implemented in the worse possible way to begin with. The the poorest of the poor in any neighborhood are still getting the worst end of the deal.

 

[Neser Boha]

Hillarious. Here's an actual question from the examination I gave today in Pre-Calculus. For those that don't know, that's a freshman level course at College, or a Junior or Senior level high school course:

On a certain route, an airline carries 5000 passengers per month, each paying $30. A market survey indicates that for each $1 increase in the ticket price, the airline will lose 100 passengers. Find the ticket price that will maximize the airline's montly revenue for the route. What is the monthly revenue?

For the record, the basic equations in the problem are accessible to those that have had an 8th grade algebra course. The only "higher level" concept required is knowledge of parabolas.

I don't think you're getting the gist of this thread.

Btw, got the same answer as Missourian. At $40 a pop they would maximize their revenue at $160 000. That was a rather easy question, as a matter of fact. That's the sort of shit an 8th grader in the Czech republic could solve.

Well done!

I'm just tired of generalizations like the OP's joke when it comes to mathematics education. The questions I assign in math courses are essentially the same questions that have been asked since the 1950's. That, if anything, is part of the problem. We actually do need more innovation in our standards and methods when it comes to mathematics.

Americans do have the mathematical ability to be successful. When I went to graduate school, it was a commonly known fact that at the start of the process the foreign graduate students were far and away stronger. By the time the qualifiers rolled around, the Americans and foreign students tended to be on equal footing.

The ability is there. We desperately need to hold students to higher standards (which starts with parents), innovate our culture so students don't start predisposed against mathematics, and teach students more than just rote memorization.

You are making a very good point.

 

[sparky]

Let's review:
1. The product of schools in the United States have become an embarrassment.
2. The education system has become a financial black hole, where one can almost document the inverse relationship between appropriations and performance.
3. This thread is about the state of education, not about teachers.

and
4. Since you have neither refuted my citations, by providing illlusory data about how well American students are doing and/or improvements shown, nor retracted your obnubilations, you have exposed yourself as a dishonest partisan.

And that is the saddest part: you have turned this from an intellectual discussion into a screed.

just look what's happening here>

Who are replacing these fired teachers in the newly opened charter schools? Not qualified or certified teachers. Companies like Teach for America are springing up to fill the demand of low cost, non-union teachers. Teach for America is a “non-profit” company — with an operating budget of over $73.5 million — that offers only five weeks of training before one becomes a teacher. No background in teaching is necessary.



Although companies like these are touted as “elite” institutions, The New York Times admits that “…so far, both merit-pay efforts and programs that recruit a more-elite teaching corps, like Teach for America, have thin records of reliably improving student learning.” (March 2, 2010).



In Chicago, charter schools need only 50 percent of their teachers to be certified, while no charter school teacher is allowed to belong to the Chicago Teachers Union.



Drill sergeants are also replacing certified teachers. In Chicago, shut down public schools have been re-opened as military recruiting centers; five military high schools and 21 military middle schools are now in operation. This was done under the watchful eye of Obama’s Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan — no doubt achieved in anticipation of the expanding wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the need to fulfill recruiters’ quotas.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17966

 

[Neser Boha]

Let's review:
1. The product of schools in the United States have become an embarrassment.
2. The education system has become a financial black hole, where one can almost document the inverse relationship between appropriations and performance.
3. This thread is about the state of education, not about teachers.

and
4. Since you have neither refuted my citations, by providing illlusory data about how well American students are doing and/or improvements shown, nor retracted your obnubilations, you have exposed yourself as a dishonest partisan.

And that is the saddest part: you have turned this from an intellectual discussion into a screed.

just look what's happening here>

Who are replacing these fired teachers in the newly opened charter schools? Not qualified or certified teachers. Companies like Teach for America are springing up to fill the demand of low cost, non-union teachers. Teach for America is a “non-profit” company — with an operating budget of over $73.5 million — that offers only five weeks of training before one becomes a teacher. No background in teaching is necessary.



Although companies like these are touted as “elite” institutions, The New York Times admits that “…so far, both merit-pay efforts and programs that recruit a more-elite teaching corps, like Teach for America, have thin records of reliably improving student learning.” (March 2, 2010).



In Chicago, charter schools need only 50 percent of their teachers to be certified, while no charter school teacher is allowed to belong to the Chicago Teachers Union.



Drill sergeants are also replacing certified teachers. In Chicago, shut down public schools have been re-opened as military recruiting centers; five military high schools and 21 military middle schools are now in operation. This was done under the watchful eye of Obama’s Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan — no doubt achieved in anticipation of the expanding wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the need to fulfill recruiters’ quotas.

The Fight to Save Public Education in America

Wow, sounds like 'somebody' is fucked big time! I remember once a college classmate of mine announced one day that she will be subbing for a math class ... a HIGHSCHOOL math class no less (because the teacher was on a maternity leave or some such thing). I was 18 then and I was completely shocked because something like that could never - in a million years - happen in the Czech republic. All the high-school teachers had to have AT LEAST a master's degree and many were doctors in their fields or professors. That girl just finished a year or two at a community college. That's when I realized something was rotten in Denmark.

 

[sparky]

That's when I realized something was rotten in Denmark.

pretty much Neser, but there doesn't seem any clear solutions here, only the usual blame game contestants running the usual course....

 

[editec]

America treats their k-12 teachers like children and then cannot understand why their teachers are mostly beaten down losers instead of professionals?

People, we drive good teachers out of the profession by not allowing them to ACT like professionals

We reward those who can put up with that shit (people I call good soldiers ) who will do what they're told.

Good solders make good soldiers but they make CRAPPY teachers.

Let's remember, shall we that the ultimate deciders in education are NOT educators.

They are members of school boards and generally those are not populated by teachers.

 

[Neser Boha]

America treats their k-12 teachers like children and then cannot understand why their teachers are mostly beaten down losers instead of professionals?

People, we drive good teachers out of the profession by not allowing them to ACT like professionals

We reward those who can put up with that shit (people I call good soldiers ) who will do what they're told.

Good solders make good soldiers but they make CRAPPY teachers.

Let's remember, shall we that the ultimate deciders in education are NOT educators.

They are members of school boards and generally those are not populated by teachers.

Teachers should definitely be given much more authority and autonomy - and not bureaucrats who are absolutely clueless. Great point - you can see that on the website I posted here - about Finnish education system - it is spelled out that teachers enjoy a lot of autonomy and even decide what literature to use, etc.

 

[midcan5]

PoliticalChic, when you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.

You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others. Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.

Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.

I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.

One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.

Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.

The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.

In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.

Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'

One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!

PS I taught too after school, more on that maybe later.


A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241441360&sr=1-14]Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books[/ame]
Dumbest Generation Home
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/High-Tech-Heretic-Reflections-Computer-Contrarian/dp/0385489765/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248093458&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books[/ame]
Are children getting dumber? Prospect Magazine
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dumbest-Generation-Stupefies-Americans-Jeopardizes/dp/1585426393]Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books[/ame]

 

[editec]

If you guys want to truly be disturbed about the state of American education, I invite you to visit my website where there are lots of primers for kids written at about the turn of the XXth century.

FYI, when I apply reading level tests to books that were written to teach grade schools kids of our GF and GGF's generation, I find that they TEST out to be suitable for reading levels that are four or five grade levels above their designated levels they were originally intended for.

Books that they used to teach second graders, test out at 7th grade level in terms of vocab and complexity of sentence structure.

We teach DOWN to our kids, now, instead of trying to elevate them by challenging them, I think.

I don't mean to overstate this, becuase education, then, and education, now, are wildly different animals.

But Americans students today, generally cannot read or think (logically)nearly so well as students of the same age of three or four generations ago.

What's more, even though our student might have access to better information, they are not, as far as I can tell, nearly so well informed, as their GF or GGFs either.

I don't think this is a problem of educational theory and practice, so much as it is the result of TV and the erosion of respect we once had for education generally.

We talk about respecting the need for having an educated younger generation a LOT.

But the application of that happy talk is obviously not played out in practice.

Let me remind you how often we read in places like these about the wholesale dismissal of our educators as losers.

Now that's not exactly going to convince our best and brightest to go into education, is it?

 

[Neser Boha]

My grandfather was a teacher (and assistant to the principle) at what we call - in the Czech republic - an elementary school (classes 1st-9th, ages 6-15) and he is pretty much revered by his former students now. He showed me a couple of newspaper articles written by his former students who wrote that without him they would not go as far as they did and would not be as successful as they currently are.

Teachers are important and America needs to realize that. But something similar is going on in the Czech republic right now, teachers are being undervalued and it's starting to show on kids' performance. Some are blaming it on TV and certain American movies where teachers are being disrespected and talked down to. That is quite debatable, of course. There has definitely been a shift in values, though - that is for sure.