Each according to his ability, to each according to his need

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

And I am mocking that fact that christians (like you) are hypocrits for not believing that the govt gets its' authority from God.

And despite your claims of Biblical knowledge, you obviously are either:

a) ignorant that the Bible says the govt gets its' authority from God
OR
b) a lying hypocrit who knows what God said, but who ignores it because it's inconvenient to do what God wants you to do

Oh so now you're trying to twist the fact that since God is sovereign that those who have been appointed to government have divine right and therefore speak with the authority of God? Sorry bucko. If that's the case, Hitler spoke with the authority of God and God was trying to exterminate His Chosen People.

Or are you going to twist that too?

I don't have to twist anything. The Bible is quite clear about the matter. According to the Bible, God is sovereign, the govt gets its' authority from God, and there are no exclusions in the Bible for Hitler. According to the Bible, which Christians are supposed to believe is the Word of God, Hitler got his authority to rule from God Himself.

It is quite evident that sangha, doesn't have a complete grasp of the Word. For according to Christians, God is the ultimate Authority, something you fail to understand. All other government power is submitted under His authority, but obviously leaders like Hitler are rebellious in thought and deed towards the Truth of God. To say that Christians ought to follow ANY government leader, to include Hitler, is to be ignorant of what the Bible says. Christians are called to submit to government authority, IF that authority doesn't go against the Word of God (which is why [for example] Christians who are in the medical field, or working as a pharmacist, are "justified" in the eyes of God if they don't prescribe to procedures that condone abortions - which are allowed by government). As far as Roman's 13, you ought not neglect this Truth:

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

JOHN 18:37
Jesus answered...."For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who IS of the Truth hears My voice"

 

[jgarden]

And ONE has not to do anything with the other.

More trollish horseshit here people.

Tread lightly and don't step in the whoppers of the OP.

It might not come off.

The fact is that the early Christians held beliefs (communal living, pacifism) that are totally at odds with their 21stC American counterparts.

If American Christians were to ever put into practice what they preached by putting The Beatitudes into action, the state would quickly strip the Church of the privileges it now enjoys!

The Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-11)

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

 

[Muhammed]

Jesus was human. FACT.

Unless of course he never existed and is just a fiction!

How dio you know that Jesus is not an aardvark?

 

[AllieBaba]

And ONE has not to do anything with the other.

More trollish horseshit here people.

Tread lightly and don't step in the whoppers of the OP.

It might not come off.

The fact is that the early Christians held beliefs (communal living, pacifism) that are totally at odds with their 21stC American counterparts.

If American Christians were to ever put into practice what they preached by putting The Beatitudes into action, the state would quickly strip the Church of the privileges it now enjoys!

The Beatitudes (Matt 5:3-11)

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

fiddlesticks. None of those are in conflict with today's Christians. Christ said himself he came to bring a sword. He acknowledged on many occasions that Christianity would create conflict, and death, and war, and though we strive for perfection we are not perfect except through Him, and ultimately, through suffering and death.

Oh, and psssst....based on the OP, who here really thinks communists (particularly MARX) are fucking meek, righteous, pure in heart of PEACEMAKERS? The US is the closest thing to "peacemakers" this world has ever seen. And we are a Christian nation. Go figure.

 

[editec]

Comparing the theories of Marx to the teaching of Christ is kind of silly.

Thinking that the USA is a "Christian nation", likewise silly.

The USA does not (nor could any nation) operate as Christ told people to live.

Nations are all about the re here and now for society. Christianity is focusing on the hereafter for each person's soul.

What death penalty do you guys think Christ supported?

What army do you suppose Christ would put into the field?

Seriously folks, those of you who claim to be Christians, must understand how goofy the notion is that our nation is operating in a Christian-like way.

That or you've totally missed the message Christ was proclaiming.

 

[Muhammed]

The biggest problem with the commie/pinko creedo "from each according to his ability, to each according to their need" is that it ignores human nature. In such a system people tend to downplay their abilities and exaggerate their needs.

 

[sangha]

How many? As many as have lied.

The problem isn't the # of accusations I've made. The problem is the # of lies christians have told in order to justify their ignoring Gods' Will.

Sangha, You are a total waste of time. You are a Troll with little or nothing to contribute, that sinks deeper into your own Bullshit with every Post. You are not worth responding to on matters of Religion, reason, even the weather. Everything with you becomes an issue, everyone but you is a lier. You are not Christian. Your only reason to use scripture is to spew hate, condemnation, and Judgement, that makes you a bigot. You need to have the last word, maybe it is compensation for an undersized penis. That makes about as much sense as any of the hate and bile you post. You have no business in civilized discussion.

I can just feel the Christian "love" emanating from your post. It just oozes "turn the other cheek"

 

[sangha]

You of all people are going to lecture about authority?

You are the PERFECT example of why no Christian should pay the least bit attention to someone like you insisting YOU know the intent of whatever verse you want to take out of context and bastardize for your own agenda -even as you acknowledge you are no Christian!

Romans 13 is NOT about submitting to man-made GOVERNMENT! Your own ignorance places NO obligation on me to accept your lying ass bastardization as some kind of "truth"!

There is a reason ALL Biblical verses MUST be taken in context ONLY and NOT allow anyone, especially lying ass deceivers, to take them out of context for their own use.

Romans 13 is not MY lecture about authority. Romans 13 is The Word of God. Since you're a christian, you have to do your utmost to deny The Word of God.



I would not, but the Christian Bible says that christians should submit to authority. Don't blame me for the stupidity of your christian God.



Another wingnut who thinks posting the word "context" means he won the argument.

Why don't you explain this context which, according to you, makes it clear that when Romans 13 says " it is necessary to submit to the authorities" it means " it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"?

[

How many people have you accused of lying today alone? You make too many accusations and false presumptions to be seen as anything other than a name calling bully. Who can you communicate with here in a civil manner? You have accused me of playing the victim twice today. Again you misjudge the situation. I think it is poor judgement for you to lecture on responsibility.

How many? As many as have lied.

The problem isn't the # of accusations I've made. The problem is the # of lies christians have told in order to justify their ignoring Gods' Will.

You deceitful jackass. These are the same verses people like you have tried to use to dominate and force Christians to submit to secular authorities for centuries now. YOU are just one in a line of them and because the wording out of context allows for a convincing perversion, it has actually worked to subjugate and enslave people in the past. Christianity is not a religion that demands Christians cheerfully refuse to resist their enslavement by whichever thug happens to be able to murder the most to grab power and no matter what evil a man-made government may commit against them, sorry.

Paul was writing to the FAITHFUL in Rome in this verse. It was NOT a letter to the general population talking about some kind of civic duty and obligation to the state. He sure as hell was NOT writing to say that Christians had a God given "holy" duty and obligation to serve whatever dictator thug and man-made government happened to be imposed on them! It was NOT a letter saying Christians owed their allegiance TO THE STATE!

That you would even suggest that is what Paul was talking about is revolting but quite typical of the lying asses intent on perverting and bastardizing the Bible and Christianity in any way they can for their own agenda. But you can only do it by deliberately lying and insisting these verses MUST be taken out of context. And you do so in spite of the FACT these verses were NEVER taken out of context at the time! Or Paul wouldn't have ended up without his head! If Paul had been saying Christians owed their allegiance to Caesar and his authority over them, then Caesar would have considered Paul his friend and ally and helped Paul spread this message instead of cutting off his head. Don'tcha think, Einstein?

Apparently they knew back then that Paul was saying NO SUCH THING even if you want to lie and deceive others about it now. But get real - if Paul had really been saying Christians owed some kind of God-ordered slavish obedience to any and all of the man-made forms of government that did or will ever exist -then Caesar would have considered Paul a good buddy and wouldn't have believed Paul's message to be so threatening to his own rule and power that he wanted Paul's head removed, would he? IF that is what Paul was really saying here of course! Why would he want him beheaded if Paul was telling the faithful they OWED their allegiance to Caesar's rule and was actually writing in SUPPORT of Caesar's rule? ROFL! Not only is that NOT what Paul was saying in these verses, but even Caesar knew it wasn't what Paul was saying! Even if YOU are either: malignant, stupid and/or ignorant enough to insist otherwise today!

No Christian should EVER accept the bastardized and deliberately perverted interpretation of ANY Biblical verse by anyone like you who is driven by distinctly UNGODLY motives for perverting it!

Paul was writing to the faithful about the Kingdom of GOD and ONLY the powers and authorities that serve God that would have the only legitimate authority over them! NOT the kingdom of Caesar. Hosea 8:4 "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not." This is a verse that recognizes the existence of man-made government and man-derived authority and points out they not only do NOT serve God, but are NEVER even recognized by God as having ANY legitimate authority of any kind! This verse is saying that man-made government and authority NOT established by God has no authority over the righteous and that God did not put them in power to rule over the righteous! OOPS! THESE man-made authorities referred to in this verse are exactly the kinds of secular and non-God derived powers that Paul refused to recognize as having any legitimate authority over him and that Paul had nonstop trouble with and REBELLED AGAINST -having been whipped, beaten, persecuted and finally beheaded by UNGODLY authorities he believed had NO authority over him whatsoever!

Paul's letter was about the ONLY Kingdom and ONLY kind of authority he said DID have legitimate power over the faithful -and it sure as hell wasn't Caesar's! When Paul mentions "the powers that be", he meant the powers that BE powers because they were ordained as such by God. He did NOT mean "whatever secular government happens to exist at the moment" as the phrase is commonly used today. Your attempt to continue the perversion and bastardization of the cherry picked verses that ARE cherry picked only because they can be easily manipulated when out of context and for your own agenda does not place any obligation on any Christian to accept your bastardized UNGODLY perversion of it!

Let's put it this way -no Christian in their right mind believes that Paul was actually saying that secular governments have legitimate authority over those faithful to God when it would mean putting aside God's law. Because ALL authority not derived from God's authority will inevitably conflict with God's law and such a verse would be insisting God's authority and law must come second! You really want Christians to fall for THAT perverted ridiculous interpretation? That Christians are obligated to set aside and even violate God's law in favor of man's law and man-made, worldly authority? ROFL! Get real. Paul was NOT saying he worked for both God and Caesar as if they were equally legitimate authorities over the faithful! He was NOT discussing Caesar or Caesar's authority over the faithful AT ALL and was NOT telling Christians they owed their slavish obedience to Caesar and his secular rule even though Caesar's man-made law that was not derived from God put Caesar's laws in direct conflict with God's law! In these verses Paul was saying they owed their obedience ONLY to authority and powers that were ordained by and worked for GOD! And that sure wasn't Caesar! Yeah sure, Paul was telling the faithful that God WANTED the righteous to believe the ungodly had greater authority over them and they owed at least an equal, if not greater allegiance to a secular state that never derived its authority from God -than they owed to obeying God's law. ROFL!

And not so oddly enough and totally unlike YOU, Caesar never pretended Paul was talking about how the faithful owed their obedience to HIS authority and knew EXACTLY whose rule and authority Paul was really referring to -because AT ALL TIMES Paul was promoting another kingdom entirely and NOT a worldly, man-made one! A Kingdom Caesar found threatening to his own authority and rule. And he felt his own authority and rule were so threatened by Paul's messages about this other Kingdom that he had Paul's head cut off! So I guess that means Caesar was a hell of a lot smarter than your dumb, lying ass, huh.

Talk about wingnuttery!!!! We've got a live one here!!

All those words, all that fury, and all those (laugh) CAPITALIZED words...and all you've got is the wingnut assertion that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means that "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

The christian hypocrits are so ignorant of their own faith, that when confronted with their biblical nonsense, all they can do is shout "It doesn't mean that!! It doesn't mean that!!" Even funnier is how it is followed by a demonstration of their christian "values" (ie childish insults and name-calling).

 

[sangha]

Oh so now you're trying to twist the fact that since God is sovereign that those who have been appointed to government have divine right and therefore speak with the authority of God? Sorry bucko. If that's the case, Hitler spoke with the authority of God and God was trying to exterminate His Chosen People.

Or are you going to twist that too?

I don't have to twist anything. The Bible is quite clear about the matter. According to the Bible, God is sovereign, the govt gets its' authority from God, and there are no exclusions in the Bible for Hitler. According to the Bible, which Christians are supposed to believe is the Word of God, Hitler got his authority to rule from God Himself.

It is quite evident that sangha, doesn't have a complete grasp of the Word. For according to Christians, God is the ultimate Authority, something you fail to understand. All other government power is submitted under His authority, but obviously leaders like Hitler are rebellious in thought and deed towards the Truth of God. To say that Christians ought to follow ANY government leader, to include Hitler, is to be ignorant of what the Bible says. Christians are called to submit to government authority, IF that authority doesn't go against the Word of God (which is why [for example] Christians who are in the medical field, or working as a pharmacist, are "justified" in the eyes of God if they don't prescribe to procedures that condone abortions - which are allowed by government). As far as Roman's 13, you ought not neglect this Truth:

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

JOHN 18:37
Jesus answered...."For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who IS of the Truth hears My voice"

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

But I do have to give this one props for not having a potty mouth. That's very unusual for a christian

 

[jgarden]

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(Jesus, Matthew 5:38-39)

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
(Jesus, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
(Jesus, Matthew 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
(Jesus, Matthew 5:9)

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
(Hippolytus of Rome)

..... have learned from His teaching and His laws that evil ought not to be requited with evil, that it is better to suffer wrong than to inflict it, that we should rather shed our own blood than stain our hands and our conscience with that of another .....
(Arnobius, Adversus Gentes I:VI)

The whole world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale.
(Cyprian of Carthage)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism

By accepting the words and life of Christ, most Christians refrained from engaging in military service and holding government office for any secular state that would place inevitably place them in a direct moral conflict of interest.

Despite centuries of religious persecution and martyrdom, there is no history of Christians actually taking up arms against Rome in their own defense.

Conventional modern wisdom would be that without armed resistance, Christianity would have allowed itself to be systematically destroyed over time - the reality is that by placing their faith in Christ and His teachings (The Beatitudes) and not the sword, Christianity actually prospered and flourished.

 

[sangha]

To accept the words and life of Christ and the early pacifists, Christians should refrain from military service and holding government office in a secular state that would place them in a moral cobflict of interest.

Despite centuries of religious persecution and martyrdom, there is no history of Christians taking up arms in their defense.

More proof that christians have to lie in order to defend their faith

This wingnut thinks there aren't any christians in the US military

 

[frazzledgear]

Comparing the theories of Marx to the teaching of Christ is kind of silly.

Thinking that the USA is a "Christian nation", likewise silly.

The USA does not (nor could any nation) operate as Christ told people to live.

Nations are all about the re here and now for society. Christianity is focusing on the hereafter for each person's soul.

What death penalty do you guys think Christ supported?

What army do you suppose Christ would put into the field?

Seriously folks, those of you who claim to be Christians, must understand how goofy the notion is that our nation is operating in a Christian-like way.

That or you've totally missed the message Christ was proclaiming.

Which death penalty would Christ support? Probably one that inflicts the least cruelty in the manner in which it is applied given the technology of the times. That Christ would support a death penalty at all? Did you read anything in the Bible where Jesus denounced the capital punishment being inflicted on those hanging on crosses next to Him? No, it was the humiliation of being crucified along with common criminals that was notable about that.

The Bible already says which army God will put in the field when the times comes, I don't have to figure that one out. I have no need to pervert my religion and pretend that God is anti-war -not when God has wiped out entire generations for the evil they have committed. I also don't ignore the verses that says all people will be judged for their treatment of His Chosen People who were scattered across the earth and judge all nations for their treatment of the nation of Israel. Which people do you think God is going to be most unhappy about in their treatment of His chosen people? Fundamentalist Christians who insist Jews are their brothers or those whose history is replete with using Jews for target practice and to fill big holes in the ground? Which nations do YOU think God is going to be most unhappy about in their treatment of Israel? Its strongest ally or the one that has vowed to wipe it off the map and is rushing to develop nukes so it can give it a good shot?

The rest of this post is in response to those still arguing that Paul was telling the faithful they owed their allegiance to the state (which would have been Caesar): You choose to misread His nature to assume God is some kind of peacenik just because some people are stupid (or malignant enough) to insist the absence of war is "peace", or believe He created man to enslave and torture each other -oh, as long as they use the power of a government to do it, THAT makes it fine and dandy with God? Are you for real? Gee, wouldn't He have told the Jewish slaves of Pharaoh to just suck it up then because they owed their allegiance to him and wouldn't He have told Moses to "go along to get along" instead? You lie by suggesting these verses meant God created man to serve GOVERNMENT and give his allegiance to GOVERNMENT -which is a man made creation! There are NO God-created governments on the planet and until there is -Paul's letter to the faithful in Rome does not apply to MY allegiance to THIS or ANY government as if it is equal to my allegiance to God! What a crock of shit! Man-made governments are ALL imperfect and govern IMPERFECTLY! Some govern EVILLY. God does not intend man to give his allegiance to such imperfect and at times downright EVIL man-made creations -a suggestion that immediately contradicts and clashes with everything else in the New Testament you moron about where my allegiance really is obligated as a Christian -and it isn't with any GOVERNMENT! The bastardization of these verses is so obvious you have to be an atheist to insist otherwise! And wow -no surprise, the very people insisting these verses somehow prove Christians are not properly practicing their religion by giving their allegiance to the STATE -are the very people who reject and denounce the religion in the first place! Which means their interpretation is not motivated by even the PRETENSE of trying to please God but something else entirely.

That is OBVIOUSLY not what Paul was saying because if that is what he meant, then he himself would NOT have rebelled against one governing authority after another and to the point it ended up costing him his head! How do you figure Paul was saying one thing to other followers of Christ -while doing the exact opposite himself by rebelling against government that he repeatedly said HAD NO AUTHORITY OVER HIM -and government ended up putting him to death for it! Oh sure let's all pretend an apostle was trying to be an example to the faithful -by rebelling against the state while telling everyone else to submit, bow down, suck it up and give their allegiance to the STATE -not God! While he himself showed his own allegiance was ONLY to Christ while he openly rebelled against the state even after suffering whippings, beatings, torture, persecution and finally beheading! I'm pretty sure that if Paul believed that kind of allegiance was owed to the STATE, then this is what he would have done himself and shown the faithful by his own example instead of getting the governing authority to cut off his head don'tcha think? Which means this lying ass interpretation which IS taken out of context since the letter Paul wrote was NOT about Caesar's government and Caesar's rule and was NOT telling the faithful they owed their allegiance to CAESAR -also means he was NOT telling the faithful they owed their allegiance to ANY man-made form of government either and to keep insisting that is what he meant when Paul himself REBELLED against several different ruling authorities means that interpretation is clearly nothing but unholy BULLSHIT! Just because Paul did not take up arms against Caesar doesn't mean he wasn't resisting and rebelling against his authority! Clearly he did.

It benefits some people to try and re-write the nature of God to be some kind of touchy-feely, warm fuzzy dude as if that sums up the totality. Big mistake. God is the same God who gets angry, jealous, wrathful, righteous as well as loving and forgiving. Are people silly enough to believe that God gave man emotions that He does not possess Himself? God has all the emotions of man and probably a lot more that man does not -the difference is God's perfect expression of them which man is not capable of and never will be. There is no such thing as a "bad" emotion, no such thing as "wrong" feelings. Only the imperfect, inappropriate and poor expression of them which is the problem man has dealing with them. God has no such problem.

"Christian nation" merely identifies the religion of the majority of people in this country just as identifying Israel with its secular government as a "Jewish nation" merely identifies the religion of the majority -and neither label identifying the religion of the majority identifies the form of government they are governed by whatsoever. Roughly 85% of the population identifies themselves as Christian -which makes this a Christian nation just like the fact the majority of people in Israel identifying themselves as Jews makes it a Jewish nation. And it is because the vast majority in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia are Muslim that makes them Muslims nations -NOT their very different forms of government! Perfection is NEVER possible for man. My faith does not make me perfect and Christ NEVER said it would -so naturally any form of government which is man made and run by man -cannot ever be perfect which is why my religion would NEVER demand my allegiance to ANY man-made government. If anything as a Christian living in a world with rampant evil and the existence of some very bad man-made governments driven by evil motives - I would be obligated to resist and fight against some very evil man-made governments on this planet. Government is just a THING -my faith doesn't require my allegiance to any THING. Government is run by PEOPLE but my religion doesn't demand my religious allegiance to other PEOPLE either! I cannot owe my full allegiance to a faceless, inhuman, unconscious, unfeeling THING! Because of the nature of government AND the people who actually run it are so often seriously flawed and at times evil, my allegiance to my government is LIMITED and has lots of STRINGS ATTACHED! My allegiance is therefore is just a form of limited civic duty -which is never unlimited and unquestioning. People like YOU want to deceive Christians into believing it is more than just a limited civic duty but a holy and RELIGIOUS duty -which would require their UNQUESTIONING and UNLIMITED allegiance. Making them much easier to be manipulated by those in power or are seeking power-and that is the ONLY reason for these perverted, bastardized interpretations of a verse regarding a religion THEY reject, mock and despise!

I think the non-Christians pretending THEY are the best interpreters of the religious doctrine they do not practice and for the most part despise -which shows a definite unholy motivation for their interpretation -are not the best judges to interpret even a single word in the Bible for those who actually study and practice it. What a ridiculous idea that such people even know what they are talking about as the best source to interpret it! GET REAL. Paul was NOT saying Christians owe allegiance to the STATE -a THING! He sure wasn't saying they owed allegiance to Caesar, the person heading that government! That you even convinced yourself this is what it means only shows your own ignorance and arrogance in the attempt to YET AGAIN pervert a religion you openly despise! You stupid idiots. So take your perverted interpretations and shove them up your ass. By whichever means causes the least amount of discomfort to you of course.

My faith doesn't require that I treat the opinions of people INTENT on perverting my religion and cannot be reached by reason or rational discussion and have already hardened their minds and are incapable of taking in and even considering any other information because they ARE intent on holding out the perversion as "truth" -as if it does represent a valid point of view. Or with any respect at all because the motive for the repeated insistence that you know best is blatantly obvious as an unholy one, one that is trying to pervert the faithful and undermine their relationship with God. I am not obligated to give you my time, consideration or even my respect for what you are doing. So piss off.

 

[sangha]

Comparing the theories of Marx to the teaching of Christ is kind of silly.

Thinking that the USA is a "Christian nation", likewise silly.

The USA does not (nor could any nation) operate as Christ told people to live.

Nations are all about the re here and now for society. Christianity is focusing on the hereafter for each person's soul.

What death penalty do you guys think Christ supported?

What army do you suppose Christ would put into the field?

Seriously folks, those of you who claim to be Christians, must understand how goofy the notion is that our nation is operating in a Christian-like way.

That or you've totally missed the message Christ was proclaiming.

Which death penalty would Christ support? Probably one that inflicts the least cruelty in the manner in which it is applied given the technology of the times. That Christ would support a death penalty at all? Did you read anything in the Bible where Jesus denounced the capital punishment being inflicted on those hanging on crosses next to Him?

The Bible already says which army God will put in the field when the times comes, I don't have to figure that one out. I have no need to pervert my religion and pretend that God is anti-war -not when God has wiped out entire generations for the evil they have committed. I also don't ignore the verses that says all people will be judged for their treatment of His Chosen People who were scattered across the earth and judge all nations for their treatment of the nation of Israel. Which people do you think God is going to be most unhappy about in their treatment of His chosen people? Fundamentalist Christians who insist Jews are their brothers or those whose history is replete with using Jews for target practice and to fill big holes in the ground? Which nations do YOU think God is going to be most unhappy about in their treatment of Israel? Its strongest ally or the one that has vowed to wipe it off the map and is rushing to develop nukes so it can give it a good shot?

The rest of this post is in response to those still arguing that Paul was telling the faithful they owed their allegiance to the state (which would have been Caesar): You choose to misread His nature to assume God is some kind of peacenik just because some people are stupid (or malignant enough) to insist the absence of war is "peace", or believe He created man to enslave and torture each other -oh, as long as they use the power of a government to do it, THAT makes it fine and dandy with God? Are you for real? Gee, wouldn't He have told the Jewish slaves of Pharaoh to just suck it up then because they owed their allegiance to him and wouldn't He have told Moses to "go along to get along" instead? You lie by suggesting these verses meant God created man to serve GOVERNMENT and give his allegiance to GOVERNMENT -which is a man made creation! There are NO God-created governments on the planet and until there is -Paul's letter to the faithful in Rome does not apply to MY allegiance to THIS or ANY government as if it is equal to my allegiance to God! What a crock of shit! Man-made governments are ALL imperfect and govern IMPERFECTLY! Some govern EVILLY. God does not intend man to give his allegiance to such imperfect and at times downright EVIL man-made creations -a suggestion that immediately contradicts and clashes with everything else in the New Testament you moron about where my allegiance really is obligated as a Christian -and it isn't with any GOVERNMENT! The bastardization of these verses is so obvious you have to be an atheist to insist otherwise! And wow -no surprise, the very people insisting these verses somehow prove Christians are not properly practicing their religion by giving their allegiance to the STATE -are the very people who reject and denounce the religion in the first place! Which means their interpretation is not motivated by even the PRETENSE of trying to please God but something else entirely.

That is OBVIOUSLY not what Paul was saying because if that is what he meant, then he himself would NOT have rebelled against one governing authority after another and to the point it ended up costing him his head! How do you figure Paul was saying one thing to other followers of Christ -while doing the exact opposite himself by rebelling against government that he repeatedly said HAD NO AUTHORITY OVER HIM -and government ended up putting him to death for it! Oh sure let's all pretend an apostle was trying to be an example to the faithful -by rebelling against the state while telling everyone else to submit, bow down, suck it up and give their allegiance to the STATE -not God! While he himself showed his own allegiance was ONLY to Christ while he openly rebelled against the state even after suffering whippings, beatings, torture, persecution and finally beheading! I'm pretty sure that if Paul believed that kind of allegiance was owed to the STATE, then this is what he would have done himself and shown the faithful by his own example instead of getting the governing authority to cut off his head don'tcha think? Which means this lying ass interpretation which IS taken out of context since the letter Paul wrote was NOT about Caesar's government and Caesar's rule and was NOT telling the faithful they owed their allegiance to CAESAR -also means he was NOT telling the faithful they owed their allegiance to ANY man-made form of government either and to keep insisting that is what he meant when Paul himself REBELLED against several different ruling authorities means that interpretation is clearly nothing but unholy BULLSHIT! Just because Paul did not take up arms against Caesar doesn't mean he wasn't resisting and rebelling against his authority! Clearly he did.

It benefits some people to try and re-write the nature of God to be some kind of touchy-feely, warm fuzzy dude as if that sums up the totality. Big mistake. God is the same God who gets angry, jealous, wrathful, righteous as well as loving and forgiving. Are people silly enough to believe that God gave man emotions that He does not possess Himself? God has all the emotions of man and probably a lot more that man does not -the difference is God's perfect expression of them which man is not capable of and never will be. There is no such thing as a "bad" emotion, no such thing as "wrong" feelings. Only the imperfect, inappropriate and poor expression of them which is the problem man has dealing with them. God has no such problem.

"Christian nation" merely identifies the religion of the majority of people in this country just as identifying Israel with its secular government as a "Jewish nation" merely identifies the religion of the majority -and neither label identifying the religion of the majority identifies the form of government they are governed by whatsoever. Roughly 85% of the population identifies themselves as Christian -which makes this a Christian nation just like the fact the majority of people in Israel identifying themselves as Jews makes it a Jewish nation. And it is because the vast majority in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia are Muslim that makes them Muslims nations -NOT their very different forms of government! Perfection is NEVER possible for man. My faith does not make me perfect and Christ NEVER said it would -so naturally any form of government which is man made and run by man -cannot ever be perfect which is why my religion would NEVER demand my allegiance to ANY man-made government. If anything as a Christian living in a world with rampant evil and the existence of some very bad man-made governments driven by evil motives - I would be obligated to resist and fight against some very evil man-made governments on this planet. Government is just a THING -my faith doesn't require my allegiance to any THING. Government is run by PEOPLE but my religion doesn't demand my religious allegiance to other PEOPLE either! I cannot owe my full allegiance to a faceless, inhuman, unconscious, unfeeling THING! Because of the nature of government AND the people who actually run it are so often seriously flawed and at times evil, my allegiance to my government is LIMITED and has lots of STRINGS ATTACHED! My allegiance is therefore is just a form of limited civic duty -which is never unlimited and unquestioning. People like YOU want to deceive Christians into believing it is more than just a limited civic duty but a holy and RELIGIOUS duty -which would require their UNQUESTIONING and UNLIMITED allegiance. Making them much easier to be manipulated by those in power or are seeking power-and that is the ONLY reason for these perverted, bastardized interpretations of a verse regarding a religion THEY reject, mock and despise!

I think the non-Christians pretending THEY are the best interpreters of the religious doctrine they do not practice and for the most part despise -which shows a definite unholy motivation for their interpretation -are not the best judges to interpret even a single word in the Bible for those who actually study and practice it. What a ridiculous idea that such people even know what they are talking about as the best source to interpret it! GET REAL. Paul was NOT saying Christians owe allegiance to the STATE -a THING! He sure wasn't saying they owed allegiance to Caesar, the person heading that government! That you even convinced yourself this is what it means only shows your own ignorance and arrogance in the attempt to YET AGAIN pervert a religion you openly despise! You stupid idiots. So take your perverted interpretations and shove them up your ass. By whichever means causes the least amount of discomfort to you of course.

My faith doesn't require that I treat the opinions of people INTENT on perverting my religion and cannot be reached by reason or rational discussion and have already hardened their minds and are incapable of taking in and even considering any other information because they ARE intent on holding out the perversion as "truth" as if that perversion represents a valid point of view -or with any respect at all. The motive for the repeated insistence that you know best is blatantly obvious as an unholy one so you are trying to pervert the faithful and undermine their relationship with God. I am not obligated to give you my time, consideration or even my respect for what you are doing. So piss off.

 

[Big Fitz]

The fact is that the early Christians held beliefs (communal living, pacifism)

Those groups were wiped out from Indians, starved or corrected their delusional beliefs to something rational.

 

[Big Fitz]

I don't have to twist anything. The Bible is quite clear about the matter. According to the Bible, God is sovereign, the govt gets its' authority from God, and there are no exclusions in the Bible for Hitler. According to the Bible, which Christians are supposed to believe is the Word of God, Hitler got his authority to rule from God Himself.

It is quite evident that sangha, doesn't have a complete grasp of the Word. For according to Christians, God is the ultimate Authority, something you fail to understand. All other government power is submitted under His authority, but obviously leaders like Hitler are rebellious in thought and deed towards the Truth of God. To say that Christians ought to follow ANY government leader, to include Hitler, is to be ignorant of what the Bible says. Christians are called to submit to government authority, IF that authority doesn't go against the Word of God (which is why [for example] Christians who are in the medical field, or working as a pharmacist, are "justified" in the eyes of God if they don't prescribe to procedures that condone abortions - which are allowed by government). As far as Roman's 13, you ought not neglect this Truth:

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

JOHN 18:37
Jesus answered...."For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who IS of the Truth hears My voice"

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

But I do have to give this one props for not having a potty mouth. That's very unusual for a christian

huh. an apostate calling a christian a hypocrite.

I think you busted my irony sensor.

 

[sangha]

It is quite evident that sangha, doesn't have a complete grasp of the Word. For according to Christians, God is the ultimate Authority, something you fail to understand. All other government power is submitted under His authority, but obviously leaders like Hitler are rebellious in thought and deed towards the Truth of God. To say that Christians ought to follow ANY government leader, to include Hitler, is to be ignorant of what the Bible says. Christians are called to submit to government authority, IF that authority doesn't go against the Word of God (which is why [for example] Christians who are in the medical field, or working as a pharmacist, are "justified" in the eyes of God if they don't prescribe to procedures that condone abortions - which are allowed by government). As far as Roman's 13, you ought not neglect this Truth:

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

JOHN 18:37
Jesus answered...."For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who IS of the Truth hears My voice"

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

But I do have to give this one props for not having a potty mouth. That's very unusual for a christian

huh. an apostate calling a christian a hypocrite.

I think you busted my irony sensor.

And another christian who can't explain how "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

I don't have to twist anything. The Bible is quite clear about the matter. According to the Bible, God is sovereign, the govt gets its' authority from God, and there are no exclusions in the Bible for Hitler. According to the Bible, which Christians are supposed to believe is the Word of God, Hitler got his authority to rule from God Himself.

It is quite evident that sangha, doesn't have a complete grasp of the Word. For according to Christians, God is the ultimate Authority, something you fail to understand. All other government power is submitted under His authority, but obviously leaders like Hitler are rebellious in thought and deed towards the Truth of God. To say that Christians ought to follow ANY government leader, to include Hitler, is to be ignorant of what the Bible says. Christians are called to submit to government authority, IF that authority doesn't go against the Word of God (which is why [for example] Christians who are in the medical field, or working as a pharmacist, are "justified" in the eyes of God if they don't prescribe to procedures that condone abortions - which are allowed by government). As far as Roman's 13, you ought not neglect this Truth:

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

JOHN 18:37
Jesus answered...."For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who IS of the Truth hears My voice"

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

So with all the scripture that can be found in the Bible, this is the best response you can come up with to support your argument? You're kidding, right?

 

[sangha]

It is quite evident that sangha, doesn't have a complete grasp of the Word. For according to Christians, God is the ultimate Authority, something you fail to understand. All other government power is submitted under His authority, but obviously leaders like Hitler are rebellious in thought and deed towards the Truth of God. To say that Christians ought to follow ANY government leader, to include Hitler, is to be ignorant of what the Bible says. Christians are called to submit to government authority, IF that authority doesn't go against the Word of God (which is why [for example] Christians who are in the medical field, or working as a pharmacist, are "justified" in the eyes of God if they don't prescribe to procedures that condone abortions - which are allowed by government). As far as Roman's 13, you ought not neglect this Truth:

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

JOHN 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

JOHN 18:37
Jesus answered...."For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the Truth. Everyone who IS of the Truth hears My voice"

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

So with all the scripture that can be found in the Bible, this is the best response you can come up with to support your argument? You're kidding, right?

When you can find scripture that actually refutes my claim (instead of irrelevant quotes that you dishonestly claim are relevant), let me know.

In the meantime, only a wingnut like you would argue that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities" because I only have one biblical quote.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

So with all the scripture that can be found in the Bible, this is the best response you can come up with to support your argument? You're kidding, right?

When you can find scripture that actually refutes my claim (instead of irrelevant quotes that you dishonestly claim are relevant), let me know.

In the meantime, only a wingnut like you would argue that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities" because I only have one biblical quote.

I have proven my point, but I'll break it down for you so you can understand more clearly:

WHO HAS THE GREATER AUTHORITY: GOD, ... OR THE NATION'S (Roman's 13) AUTHORITY:

2 PETER 2: 9-10
... the Lord knows how to deliver the GODLY out of temptation and to reserve the UNJUST under punishment for the day of judgement, and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise Authority. They are presumptuous, SELF-willed.

Authority refers to God's authority. This is explained under ANOTHER scripture: MATTHEW 28: 18 (see below)

PSALMS 24: 1
The earth is the Lord's and all it's fullness.

PSALMS 47: 2-3
For the Lord Most High is awesome; He is a great King OVER all the earth. He will subdue the peoples under us, and the NATIONS under our feet.

1 TIMOTHY 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and Man Christ Jesus.

MATTHEW 28:18
"And Jesus came and spoke to them saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth.'

MATTHEW 6:33
But seek FIRST the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness (notice who is first here, there is no mention of any nation)

ACTS 17: 24-26
'God who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made of hands. Nor is He worshipped with man's hands as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood EVERY NATION of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings'


The scriptures above point to God's authority being GREATER than ANY nation's authority.


1) Can YOU Sangha, show me in Biblical scripture where a "Nation's" authority is GREATER than obeying God's authority, and what God requires? (This will require more than just ROMANS 13)




What does God require (Obedience):

ROMANS 2: 8-12
"But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

LEVITICUS 11: 44
'For I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy for I am Holy.'

ROMANS 12: 2
And do not be conformed to THIS WORLD but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God

JAMES 4: 4
Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God


These above scriptures points to obedience of God's "Authority", and what He REQUIRES, as being GREATER than obeying the nations of the world. Christians are not required by God to submit to worldly authority, where it CONFLICTS with what God requires.


__________________
1 CORINTHIANS 1: 20
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 

[Big Fitz]

And another christian hypocrit proves that "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

But I do have to give this one props for not having a potty mouth. That's very unusual for a christian

huh. an apostate calling a christian a hypocrite.

I think you busted my irony sensor.

And another christian who can't explain how "it is necessary to submit to the authorities" means "it is NOT necessary to submit to the authorities"

Obviously not familiar with the 'pearls before swine' verse. You're just not worth my time Sane?Nah!