Zone1 Drag Shows in the U.S. military during WWII

[HeyNorm]

Did they demean women in WWII? Much drag performance culture in the “gay world” actually “worships” women. For example, Judy Garland became a cult heroine to many gays, at least when I was young.

Drag also includes women impersonating men, sometimes as an act of “cool,” other times as a show of rebellion and independence, sometimes satirically. Is all that to be banned too? Who decides? Would you ban all the many comical movies that playfully highlighted drag performances?

I get that some of it may be “in very poor taste.” I don’t like that stuff either! But straight films and plays often show heterosexuals acting as killers, perverts, rapists, sadists, etc. Ban all of this too?

We do not promote killers, perverts, rapist and sadists as role models to our children.

Yes there are women who portray men. So? Men have not had to endure the battle to be treated as equals as women have. Did this even need explained?

We all see your motive. It may have worked short term, but as you can see here, the opposition is growing.

 

[Couchpotato]

I found this unusual article on the history of GI DRAG SHOWS entertaining the troops during WWII … which some MAGA types — and Liberals too — should find interesting.

The author is gay, an historian, an elementary school teacher, and a prominent educator involved in Louisiana state controversies over curriculum, “CRT,” etc.

Read it and see how our nation managed to come together when sorely tested in the past. It shows how our military managed to use and even encourage “drag shows” to entertain culturally diverse — and still racially segregated — soldiers.

It was a time when gays (in an out of the military) were almost entirely still “in the closet.” At that time our nation as a whole was more culturally “conservative” yet was led by a far more united and “progressive” political leadership than in our more hysterically divided present.

GIs as Dolls: Uncovering the Hidden Histories of Drag Entertainment During Wartime | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

We can assume there were no minors at these shows as you have to be 18 to join the military. Thus, no controversy. Drag only became an issue when children became involved. No one cared what people in the "drag community" did, or if people went to see drag shows. They still don't. How many drag shows that didn't have kids at them have been protested or outlawed? I really don't understand why children need to be involved in drag shows or how them attending drag shows is beneficial to them. There are all kinds of lifestyles out there that adults engage in that we don't expose children to and for good reason. There's plenty of time for kids to learn about adult things, namely when they are adults. No need to rush them. You spend 18 years as a child and hopefully 50-60+ as an adult.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

We do not promote killers, perverts, rapist and sadists as role models to our children.

Yes there are women who portray men. So? Men have not had to endure the battle to be treated as equals as women have. Did this even need explained?

We all see your motive. It may have worked short term, but as you can see here, the opposition is growing.

“We do not promote killers, perverts, rapist and sadists as role models to our children…” — HeyNorm

Of course not! I never accused you — or anyone on this thread — of “promoting killers, perverts, rapists and sadists as role models” … and I hope you extend to me the same simple courtesy.

But I think we can both accept that Hollywood and our media culture do indeed graphically portray “perversions” like sadistic murder and rape every day — though generally I hope not exactly as “role model” behavior! “Perversion” can be defined in many ways, and I hope you are not arguing that gays and lesbians are by very their existence … “perverts.”

“Stories” and portrayals of psychopathic criminals (straight or gay) seem very popular and are presented in many contexts — even sometimes in portraying otherwise “heroic” military conflict. When I was young arguments were made to restrict ALL violent or clearly sexual film portrayals because they supposedly encouraged bad behavior. Later, the worst “evil geniuses” were portrayed as mere characatures like those in James Bond movies.

In communist & authoritarian countries the government forbids almost all of this … and of course they are “the good guys” and the cops & gov’t officials always win against … criminals and “perverts.”

I don’t like “weird violence” or watching portrayals of — imo — true “perversion” of human nature — but I recognize human nature is not exactly simple or perfect, and my tastes and opinions are hardly universal. In any case, violence and sexual “perversions” like rape are very much built into primitive human nature.

We live in a “capitalist democracy,” and unfortunately these days violence and perversion often “sell.” We forbid or regulate this especially when it affects (or shows) children. I understand and agree this is necessary. I certainly wouldn’t take my grand-daughter or nieces and nephews to a drag show!

I am not, however, for the state “banning” drag shows entirely or re-imposing the old film and media “morality codes.” A “rating system” for “adult programming” that leaves it up to the consumer seems to me a much better (if imperfect) approach.

I note you and others haven’t expressed very clearly how or to what extent you think it appropriate to “ban” drag shows. The WWII military drag performances were actually government sponsored — for an exceptional cause at an exceptional time.

Advocating that all privately sponsored drag shows “be banned” today would in my view be utterly excessive, and even counterproductive. This is not at all a universally accepted “perversion.” For some it is just a way to let off steam and enjoy themselves.

The Pulse Nightclub in Orlando was the scene of a terrible massacre in 2016 — the second worst mass shooting in U.S. history, perpetrated by a single madman. It was certainly not my type of scene, but it was according to all accounts a fun place and central social center for the Orlando “Gay” community, featuring classy drag impersonators, etc. We need to be careful not to encourage “vigilante justice” or government oppression … against our gay fellow citizens.

Pulse (nightclub) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[HeyNorm]

Of course not! I never accused you — or anyone on this thread — of “promoting killers, perverts, rapists and sadists as role models” … and I hope you extend to me the same simple courtesy.

But I think we can both accept that Hollywood and our media culture do indeed graphically portray “perversions” like sadistic murder and rape every day — though generally I hope not exactly as “role model” behavior! “Perversion” can be defined in many ways, and I hope you are not arguing that gays and lesbians are by very their existence … “perverts.”

“Stories” and portrayals of psychopathic criminals (straight or gay) seem very popular and are presented in many contexts — even sometimes in portraying otherwise “heroic” military conflict. When I was young arguments were made to restrict ALL violent or clearly sexual film portrayals because they supposedly encouraged bad behavior. Later, the worst “evil geniuses” were portrayed as mere characatures like those in James Bond movies.

In communist & authoritarian countries the government forbids almost all of this … and of course they are “the good guys” and the cops & gov’t officials always win against … criminals and “perverts.”

I don’t like “weird violence” or watching portrayals of — imo — true “perversion” of human nature — but I recognize human nature is not exactly simple or perfect, and my tastes and opinions are hardly universal. In any case, violence and sexual “perversions” like rape are very much built into primitive human nature.

We live in a “capitalist democracy,” and unfortunately these days violence and perversion often “sell.” We forbid or regulate this especially when it affects (or shows) children. I understand and agree this is necessary. I certainly wouldn’t take my grand-daughter or nieces and nephews to a drag show!

I am not, however, for the state “banning” drag shows entirely or re-imposing the old film and media “morality codes.” A “rating system” for “adult programming” that leaves it up to the consumer seems to me a much better (if imperfect) approach.

I note you and others haven’t expressed very clearly how or to what extent you think it appropriate to “ban” drag shows. The WWII military drag performances were actually government sponsored — for an exceptional cause at an exceptional time.

Advocating that all privately sponsored drag shows “be banned” today would in my view be utterly excessive, and even counterproductive. This is not at all a universally accepted “perversion.” For some it is just a way to let off steam and enjoy themselves.

The Pulse Nightclub in Orlando was the scene of a terrible massacre in 2016 — the second worst in U.S. history perpetrated by a single madman. It was certainly not my type of scene, but it was according to all accounts a fun place and central social center for the local “Gay” community, featuring classy drag impersonators, etc. We need to be careful not to encourage “vigilante justice” or government oppression … against our gay fellow citizens.

Pulse (nightclub) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You can put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.

One thing has occurred to me though.

A man dressing up and acting like a woman is remarkably similar to a white man putting on black face.

We destroy white people for putting on black face, because the blacks had to fight historically for their dignity. But we throw parades for those that do the same indignity to women, who had to fight historically for theirs?

This stuff must stop. And it must stop now.

 

[Couchpotato]

The Pulse Nightclub in Orlando was the scene of a terrible massacre in 2016 — the second worst mass shooting in U.S. history, perpetrated by a single madman. It was certainly not my type of scene, but it was according to all accounts a fun place and central social center for the Orlando “Gay” community, featuring classy drag impersonators, etc. We need to be careful not to encourage “vigilante justice” or government oppression … against our gay fellow citizens.

Pulse (nightclub) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Prior to drag involving children how many drag shows were assaulted by crazy gunmen? How many were protested? How many threads on USMB about drag were there? How many segents on the news? How many internet articles were written? How often was anyone not interested in drag shows talking about drag shows?

Essentially zero. This isnt about drag or people thinking theif lifestyle is perverse or immoral. It's about children.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

You can put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.

One thing has occurred to me though.

A man dressing up and acting like a woman is remarkably similar to a white man putting on black face.

We destroy white people for putting on black face, because the blacks had to fight historically for their dignity. But we throw parades for those that do the same indignity to women, who had to fight historically for theirs?

This stuff must stop. And it must stop now.

According to your analogy, we should … “destroy gays” or any man impersonating a woman because their action automatically “demeans women”? That is just silly.

You promiscuously throw around the word “pigs” — but refuse to answer my repeatedly asked concrete questions about proposals to ban drag performances.

A very pathetic response, in my opinion.

 

[Polishprince]

The Pulse Nightclub in Orlando was the scene of a terrible massacre in 2016 — the second worst mass shooting in U.S. history, perpetrated by a single madman. It was certainly not my type of scene, but it was according to all accounts a fun place and central social center for the Orlando “Gay” community, featuring classy drag impersonators, etc. We need to be careful not to encourage “vigilante justice” or government oppression … against our gay fellow citizens.

Pulse (nightclub) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The attack on Pulse had nothing to do with the entertainment offered there. The shooter was a regular patron of the joint.

 

[Couchpotato]

According to your analogy, we should … “destroy gays” or any man impersonating a woman because their action automatically “demeans women”? That is just silly.

You promiscuously throw around the word “pigs” — but refuse to answer my repeatedly asked concrete questions about proposals to ban drag performances.

A very pathetic response, in my opinion.

the only drag performances being banned are those involving children. No one is banning adults from putting on or attending drag shows.

 

[HeyNorm]

According to your analogy, we should … “destroy gays” or any man impersonating a woman because their action automatically “demeans women”? That is just silly.

You promiscuously throw around the word “pigs” — but refuse to answer my repeatedly asked concrete questions about proposals to ban drag performances.

A very pathetic response, in my opinion.

I would ban them on the basis I gave you. Just as men in power have been discharged from office for being seen in black face, men demeaning women by pretending that they are one should be shamed out of the public square for doing the same.

 

[HeyNorm]

the only drag performances being banned are those involving children. No one is banning adults from putting on or attending drag shows.

What would the parents of these children, mostly progressive, say if a white man in black face, acting preposterously, came and read to them during story hour. I bet they wouldn’t call that cute.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I would ban them on the basis I gave you. Just as men in power have been discharged from office for being seen in black face, men demeaning women by pretending that they are one should be shamed out of the public square for doing the same.

Would you “shame out of the public square” … the Conservative Republican Governor of Tennessee?

It just came out that he appeared very publicly in drag in 1977 with two young women dressed as men, and their picture was widely circulated to minors. Should those women be “shamed” too?

Tennessee governor appears to have dressed in drag, an art form he wants to restrict

You say — seemingly without thinking — you would “ban” gay drag shows. In the next sentence you only want to “shame them.” Which is it? And how exactly does one accomplish all that?

As everyone but you apparently seems to recognize, drag performances are by no means all “demeaning” to women. Indeed, as I pointed out, the opposite is often the case, and often they are just playful. It is certainly true they are an important part of “gay culture” — and one interest often shared by straights too. But as I said before, just not my cup of tea.

I’ll give my view on questions you do not ask or answer clearly, and provide some info on the 14 new state bills and Tennessee’s new law restricting “impersonating other than one’s own” sex. Of course these bills virtually all “say” they are about “protecting children” from seeing inappropriate drag performances. Some, when passed, may indeed have this effect. But they may have other effects and intentions too.

Many of these laws, in my opinion, are aimed squarely at the gay community itself, and will be abused to close major gay clubs and deny liquor licenses to venues when a few 17-year-old minors inevitably are discovered having snuck inside with false IDs. Similarly with parades on public property — actual children MIGHT see these “terrible,” presumably “innocence-destroying” public parades — so they are to be banned as well. Even just appearing in public as a transvestite or transgender may subject some to arrest, as these laws are often open to very ambiguous readings.

The Governor of Tennessee who just signed into law the first state “anti-drag” law, whom I mentioned above, of course defended his own little public DRAG adventure as just “light-hearted H.S. tradition”! I suspect that was indeed all it was. But as NPR noted:

“(Governor) Lee says there's a big difference between wearing a dress at a high school football game and drag queens wearing a dress on stage.

Hella Skeleton, a drag performer in rural Middle Tennessee, says the line is not clear.

"For Bill Lee to say, 'You know, that was lighthearted when I did it,' that is absolutely absurd when a lot of drag is extremely lighthearted," Skeleton says. "Apparently when straight men dress up badly in drag, that's OK. But when gay and queer and trans people do it, that's not OK."

In my opinion, when this now powerful and privileged white Conservative denies LBQT folks their right to do the same thing he defends himself doing … he is not only acting hypocritically. His conduct resembles in kind the old typical white “Blackface” mockery and humiliation of Negroes in our collective “Gone with the Wind” past.

The legal issues will be adjudicated and re-adjudicated, mostly on a state by state basis. Maybe some workable compromise laws will be passed. Hopefully today’s hysteria will pass and the country will one day be re-unified to face far more serious national issues.

P.S.

Not that I wish to discuss them here, but here is info on the 14 present state bills being introduced around the country that would try to regulate gay drag shows, many of which also try to deal with separate even more highly controversial issues — like use of hormone blockers in children, or even transition surgery.

Here’s the Status of Anti-Drag Bills Across the U.S.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I know most conservatives have a problem with enforcing drag on children because:

1. Drag is entirely connected with sexual performance and sexual fetish. We keep seeing it happen... normalizing pole dancing, having children put dollar bills in underwear, explicit decorations. I'm sure there's more innocent drag somewhere, but as a whole it's very sexual and far too perverse for children.
2. Encouraging children to celebrate drag uses childhood innocence to support some of these folks with sexual fetishes, who are confused but attempt to cope with clearly exaggerated flamboyance, performance, and desperately seeking validation through social media/MSM/leftists/academia/hollywood, etc.
3. It further re-enforces children to question their gender, which is proven to severely increase the risk of suicide and depression, and is proven to disappear nearly every time if ignored and allowed to simply work itself out. They actually often simply turn out to be gay.. so the trans community is persuading gay people away from being simply gay. I wonder what the gay community would think about that if they knew the literature and research.

Let adults question their gender all they want, but to encourage kids by presenting it as an elevated stature and to be lathered with praise at all times is manipulating them... grooming them. There's no other way to put it.

 

[HeyNorm]

Would you “shame out of the public square” … the Conservative Republican Governor of Tennessee?

It just came out that he appeared very publicly in drag in 1977 with two young women dressed as men, and their picture was widely circulated to minors. Should those women be “shamed” too?

Tennessee governor appears to have dressed in drag, an art form he wants to restrict

You say — seemingly without thinking — you would “ban” gay drag shows. In the next sentence you only want to “shame them.” Which is it? And how exactly does one accomplish all that?

As everyone but you apparently seems to recognize, drag performances are by no means all “demeaning” to women. Indeed, as I pointed out, the opposite is often the case, and often they are just playful. It is certainly true they are an important part of “gay culture” — and one interest often shared by straights too. But as I said before, just not my cup of tea.

I’ll give my view on questions you do not ask or answer clearly, and provide some info on the 14 new state bills and Tennessee’s new law restricting “impersonating other than one’s own” sex. Of course these bills virtually all “say” they are about “protecting children” from seeing inappropriate drag performances. Some, when passed, may indeed have this effect. But they may have other effects and intentions too.

Many of these laws, in my opinion, are aimed squarely at the gay community itself, and will be abused to close major gay clubs and deny liquor licenses to venues when a few 17-year-old minors inevitably are discovered having snuck inside with false IDs. Similarly with parades on public property — actual children MIGHT see these “terrible,” presumably “innocence-destroying” public parades — so they are to be banned as well. Even just appearing in public as a transvestite or transgender may subject some to arrest, as these laws are often open to very ambiguous readings.

The Governor of Tennessee who just signed into law the first state “anti-drag” law, whom I mentioned above, of course defended his own little public DRAG adventure as just “light-hearted H.S. tradition”! I suspect that was indeed all it was. But as NPR noted:



In my opinion, when this now powerful and privileged white Conservative denies LBQT folks their right to do the same thing he defends himself doing … he is not only acting hypocritically. His conduct resembles in kind the old typical white “Blackface” mockery and humiliation of Negroes in our collective “Gone with the Wind” past.

The legal issues will be adjudicated and re-adjudicated, mostly on a state by state basis. Maybe some workable compromise laws will be passed. Hopefully today’s hysteria will pass and the country will one day be re-unified to face far more serious national issues.

P.S.

Not that I wish to discuss them here, but here is info on the 14 present state bills being introduced around the country that would try to regulate gay drag shows, many of which also try to deal with separate even more highly controversial issues — like use of hormone blockers in children, or even transition surgery.

Here’s the Status of Anti-Drag Bills Across the U.S.

Go ahead, defend degrading women all you want. And you keep saying over and over and over and over “gay drag shows” as if gays are the only people who dress like women?

It’s kind of funny, but I would ban drag queens regardless of their sexualities. I don’t discriminate.

Now, since you opened Pandora’s box. No pre op trans male should be allowed in womens locker rooms or bathrooms, it’s degrading and dangerous.

No cross dressing pre op trans male should be allowed to compete in womens sports. It’s degrading to woman and unfair to them that have worked so hard to achieve.

I know you don’t like this. But really, I don’t care much.

 

[HeyNorm]

Why is it laughable? Gay men are sexually attracted, not only to other gay men, but to straight men.

In fact, not only should the military segregate gays from other gays, and from straights of the the same sex, but that should become strict public policy in places like the YMCAs and other locker rooms.

Now your response will be that the answer should be private lockers and private showers. Way to expensive and completely unnecessary. The general public should not have to absorb any expense to facilitate your kink.

They absolutely should for the same reason they seperate males from females.

Is this not clear?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Apparently HeyNorm believes that men in the armed forces who are brave enough to face the enemy in combat … are utterly helpless to resist the “sexual threat” posed by other same sex gay comrades or officers, who may have to share foxholes, command centers, or even work and live together on ships or in barracks.

Was it a similar taboo or just hatred that kept black men segregated in the military in the past?

Hard to know what to say about such cowardly paranoia and lust for segregation.

 

[HeyNorm]

Apparently HeyNorm believes that men in the armed forces who are brave enough to face the enemy in combat … are utterly helpless to resist the “sexual threat” posed by other same sex gay comrades or officers, who may have to share foxholes, command centers, or even work and live together on ships or in barracks.

Was it a similar taboo or just hated that kept black men segregated in the military in the past?

Hard to know what to say about such cowardly paranoia and lust for segregation.

You just argued that gay men are far more capable of resisting their sexual urges than straight men.

So, if not, then why segregate based on sex at all?

You crack me up!

And that’s actually the whole point isn’t it. To remove the remaining vestiges of privacy and dignity of straight females!

 

[Mac-7]

Apparently HeyNorm believes that men in the armed forces who are brave enough to face the enemy in combat … are utterly helpless to resist the “sexual threat” posed by other same sex gay comrades or officers, who may have to share foxholes, command centers, or even work and live together on ships or in barracks.

Was it a similar taboo or just hated that kept black men segregated in the military in the past?

Hard to know what to say about such cowardly paranoia and lust for segregation.

There was nothing homosexual about soldiers dressing as women during WWII

The soldiers understood that there were no women on the front lines so men had to represent women for entertainment purposes

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

There was nothing homosexual about soldiers dressing as women during WWII. [my italics]

The soldiers understood that there were no women on the front lines so men had to represent women for entertainment purposes

I never said there was. If you read the OP article you will see a somewhat deeper cultural analysis of how “drag” in both the military and civilian life still provided important “breathing space” for then mostly “illegal” and officially persecuted homosexuals … who were previously forced into the closet. This is one of the most interesting aspects of this cultural phenomenon.

 

[Mac-7]

I never said there was. If you read the OP article you will see a somewhat deeper cultural analysis of how “drag” in both the military and civilian life still provided important “breathing space” for then mostly “illegal” and officially persecuted homosexuals … who were previously forced into the closet. This is one of the most interesting aspects of this cultural phenomenon.

The USO shows were not female impersonator “drag” shows

There were simply no women to play those parts

Liberal-progressive drag shows put on for children are entirely sexual in nature

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The USO shows were not female impersonator “drag” shows
There were simply no women to play those parts
Liberal-progressive drag shows put on for children are entirely sexual in nature

I think as usual you are missing my point entirely.