Doolittle Raid brilliant strategy or desperate risk

[JakeStarkey]

Common sense would tell you that the loss of every plane and about a dozen men killed or captured in a raid that did minimal damage was an abject failure but everything was political to the FDR administration. Before the media became cynical you could even call it a "mission accomplished" moment with FDR joking about the planes taking off from Shangra La. With the cooperation of the more than willing media, FDR turned a risky, some would say foolhardy adventure into a political opportunity. I have an original April 26 1942 full page "picture parade" section from the Philadelphia Inquirer (there were no photos) by staff artist William Pollock titled "First Raid over Tokyo. It is a terrific fantasy account in color showing Tokyo in flames and American bombers (and fighters) heroically inflicting maximum damage. It was a wonderful piece of propaganda when we needed it most and the feeling still lasts 70 years later.

My mother, who was 17 at the time, said the effect was electric on the American people's morale when the news was made public.

 

[namvet]

The Doolittle Tokyo Raiders Photos

Doolittle Raider Raid Photos

reunion

link

 

[whitehall]

Common sense would tell you that the loss of every plane and about a dozen men killed or captured in a raid that did minimal damage was an abject failure but everything was political to the FDR administration. Before the media became cynical you could even call it a "mission accomplished" moment with FDR joking about the planes taking off from Shangra La. With the cooperation of the more than willing media, FDR turned a risky, some would say foolhardy adventure into a political opportunity. I have an original April 26 1942 full page "picture parade" section from the Philadelphia Inquirer (there were no photos) by staff artist William Pollock titled "First Raid over Tokyo. It is a terrific fantasy account in color showing Tokyo in flames and American bombers (and fighters) heroically inflicting maximum damage. It was a wonderful piece of propaganda when we needed it most and the feeling still lasts 70 years later.

My mother, who was 17 at the time, said the effect was electric on the American people's morale when the news was made public.

In one desperate splash of propaganda the loss of every Battleship at Pearl Harbor with 3,000 killed and the entire 10,000 man Philippine Army on Battan and Corrigidor was forgotten. It was a brilliant move and a sign of how cheap life would become in the next four years.

 

[Trajan]

Japan knew there was only a small possibility she she could not win the war when it bombed Pearl Harbor so what was Japan's strategy?

I think Japan held dangerously flawed and fatal assumptions about the US also. I think they thought the US didn't have the heart for war and would cave into demands about expansion and oil.

Japan held on to the "One Big Battle" Theory that a single large naval battle would decide the outcome of the war. They also assumed thier German allies would be able to keep both the US and the Brits busy enough that they might consider peace with Japan at a certain cost in order to concentrate on the Germans.

yes and at a point they could have forced us to take a step back and lengthen the war by at least 6 months ( how much good that would have done is anyones guess, probably not a whole lot) , but lost their nerve, at Leyte Gulf ( Samar) .

They had successfully lured Halsey away to go after their empty carriers but the battleship/Cruiser task force got cold feet after the great show put up by a few escort carriers and destroyer escorts ....such is fate...Kurita should never have withdrawn and Halsey skated, he fucked up and should have been reprimanded btw.

 

[Trajan]

this is the actual war plant my mom worked at during the war building the B-25 bomber

Assembling B-25 bombers at North American Aviation. Kansas City, Kansas, October 1942. Reproduction from color slide. Photo by Alfred T. Palmer. Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress #

nice, but Willow Run was the 'bomb"....

Willow Run - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[namvet]

this is the actual war plant my mom worked at during the war building the B-25 bomber

Assembling B-25 bombers at North American Aviation. Kansas City, Kansas, October 1942. Reproduction from color slide. Photo by Alfred T. Palmer. Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress #

nice, but Willow Run was the 'bomb"....

Willow Run - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I found that photo by accident. printed a copy, framed it and gave it to my mom. in return she gave me a declassified B&W photo of those planes outside the hangers. down the road a ways in Wichita KS they had a B-29 production plant.

B-25's were great skip bombers. the is Ruthless Ruth from the bats outta hell squad

 

[percysunshine]

I have my book copy of 'Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" open, written by Ted Lawson, one of the pilots. There is an interesting passage toward the end about the raid. It is a first hand account by Ramon Muniz Lavalle, a commercial attache' of the Argentine Embassy. He writes that he was surprised to hear an air-raid alarm in Tokyo that day because he himself was beginning to share the Japanese belief and official boast that their cities could never be bombed. " I ran up to our roof and saw four American bombers flying over the rooftops. They couldn't have been more than 100 feet off the ground. I looked down at the streets. All Tokyo seemed to be in a panic. Japs were running everywhere, pushing, shouting, screaming. There were no air raid shelters in the city. Japanese homes have no cellars or basements. I could see fires starting near the port.
"Our two Japanese interpreters were frightened out of their skin. I sent down to get them, but they would not come to the roof. That raid by Doolittle was one of the greatest psychological tricks ever used. It caught the Japs by surprise. Their unbounded confidence began to crack.
"The day after the raid the Tokyo newspapers said nine planes had been shot down. I didn't even see nine. The people knew such a statement was a lie. (Note: there were only seven planes on the Tokyo mission) The officer in charge of the Japanese anti-aircraft force was removed
" The results of the Doolittle raid are still evident in Japan. They are stamped into the daily living habits of the Japanese people.Where before they imagined themselves safe from aerial aggression, they now search the skies each morning and night. Fearlessness has turned to fear.


Anyway, pardon any transcription errors.

 

[namvet]

I have my book copy of 'Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" open, written by Ted Lawson, one of the pilots. There is an interesting passage toward the end about the raid. It is a first hand account by Ramon Muniz Lavalle, a commercial attache' of the Argentine Embassy. He writes that he was surprised to hear an air-raid alarm in Tokyo that day because he himself was beginning to share the Japanese belief and official boast that their cities could never be bombed. " I ran up to our roof and saw four American bombers flying over the rooftops. They couldn't have been more than 100 feet off the ground. I looked down at the streets. All Tokyo seemed to be in a panic. Japs were running everywhere, pushing, shouting, screaming. There were no air raid shelters in the city. Japanese homes have no cellars or basements. I could see fires starting near the port.
"Our two Japanese interpreters were frightened out of their skin. I sent down to get them, but they would not come to the roof. That raid by Doolittle was one of the greatest psychological tricks ever used. It caught the Japs by surprise. Their unbounded confidence began to crack.
"The day after the raid the Tokyo newspapers said nine planes had been shot down. I didn't even see nine. The people knew such a statement was a lie. (Note: there were only seven planes on the Tokyo mission) The officer in charge of the Japanese anti-aircraft force was removed
" The results of the Doolittle raid are still evident in Japan. They are stamped into the daily living habits of the Japanese people.Where before they imagined themselves safe from aerial aggression, they now search the skies each morning and night. Fearlessness has turned to fear.


Anyway, pardon any transcription errors.

and that was just a taste of things to come

 

[MaryL]

The US was afflicted with an almost criminal racial bigotry toward the Japanese before the war which led to the US being unprepared for Pearl Harbor and later the Philippines. In retrospect we are still guilty of underestimating the Japanese. Of course the Japanese figured out that a bunch of planes were falling out of the sky because they were out of gas and they plotted every possible takeoff point. It is also quite likely that the pilots taken prisoner were tortured into divulging details of the mission. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the myth of disorganization and panic in Japan that legend seems to encourage did not happen and Doolittle's raid had no strategic value.

And Japan was never (affected "by almost") racial bigotry, either. They were TOTAL racists. I have a revelation here for you: The Japanese didn't invade Manchuria (China) with pure altruistic motives. From 1931 onwards the Japanese didn't hesitate to slaughter those "inferior" Chinese, Koreans, Burmese or all those pesky people of European extraction either, nosireebob. And they thought that dropping bombs on Pearl Harbor would somehow preserve their dominance of the pacific. I am not sure how ANYONE can paint the Japanese as "victims". If they do, they really are missing the point. The imperial Japanese and the German Nazis were both racial supreemist groups that wanted to dominate the world.

 

[namvet]

The US was afflicted with an almost criminal racial bigotry toward the Japanese before the war which led to the US being unprepared for Pearl Harbor and later the Philippines. In retrospect we are still guilty of underestimating the Japanese. Of course the Japanese figured out that a bunch of planes were falling out of the sky because they were out of gas and they plotted every possible takeoff point. It is also quite likely that the pilots taken prisoner were tortured into divulging details of the mission. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the myth of disorganization and panic in Japan that legend seems to encourage did not happen and Doolittle's raid had no strategic value.

And Japan was never (affected "by almost") racial bigotry, either. They were TOTAL racists. I have a revelation here for you: The Japanese didn't invade Manchuria (China) with pure altruistic motives. From 1931 onwards the Japanese didn't hesitate to slaughter those "inferior" Chinese, Koreans, Burmese or all those pesky people of European extraction either, nosireebob. And they thought that dropping bombs on Pearl Harbor would somehow preserve their dominance of the pacific. I am not sure how ANYONE can paint the Japanese as "victims". If they do, they really are missing the point. The imperial Japanese and the German Nazis were both racial supreemist groups that wanted to dominate the world.

your point is well taken. actually Hitler had no intentions of sharing the world. he was gonna bump off the Japs and Italians. no blonde blue eyes there

 

[regent]

It was midday when the B25's came down the road strafing us, and I swear I could see one of those tailgunner's faces as he shot at us. Why couldn't they see we were Americans? When the second wave of B25's came over some of us shot back with our MI's. We didn't get any but they got some of us.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Pretty long stretch to connect Doolittle's 30 minutes over Tokyo with the Japanese decision to capture Midway.

However, that is exactly what happened. The raid prompted the Japanese to act somewhat recklessly to take out the American Carrier fleet. The plan was not merely to extend the Japanese defense perimeter, but also to force the Americans to repond with their carriers which would then be destroyed by the Japanes main task force which was being held in reserve for that purpose.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Pretty long stretch to connect Doolittle's 30 minutes over Tokyo with the Japanese decision to capture Midway.

why is that so hard to believe

 

[JakeStarkey]

Pretty long stretch to connect Doolittle's 30 minutes over Tokyo with the Japanese decision to capture Midway.

why is that so hard to believe

It isn't. The problem may be that today's world takes forever to coordinate something huge.

WWII witnessed all the nations moving as quickly as possibly, sometimes recklessly or worse, to get there first with the most (to paraphrase one of our Confederate generals).

If the Japanese Navy had managed to get those American carriers at Midway, our war time schedule may have been delayed as much as 18 months.

 

[legaleagle_45]

If the Japanese Navy had managed to get those American carriers at Midway, our war time schedule may have been delayed as much as 18 months.

If the Japanese had managed to get those American Carriers, the Japanese would then have petitioned for peace while threatening Hawaii. They had never intended to conquer the US... they knew that was impossible. What they intended was to get as much as possible, inflict as much damage as possible, then negotiate a peace in which they would give up some of their gains in return for keeping the bulk of them.

Such a strategy was probably unworkable due to the screwup with the "declaration of war" that was supposed to served 10 minutes before the attack at Pearl occured. However, because the Japanese Embassy in DC was shorthanded on Sunday Dec 7, the transcription of the declaration was delayed for hours. Even if it had been on time, it still would have been too late, because the attack commenced 15 minutes prior to plan and would have occured prior to the intended delivery of the declaration.

Yokahama wanted a least an hour pre warning... he was overruled. When he found out that the attack occured prior to the delivery of the declaration, he was livid. He knew then that the war would probably be a disaster for Japan... he was right

 

[JakeStarkey]

If the Japanese Navy had managed to get those American carriers at Midway, our war time schedule may have been delayed as much as 18 months.

If the Japanese had managed to get those American Carriers, the Japanese would then have petitioned for peace while threatening Hawaii. They had never intended to conquer the US... they knew that was impossible. What they intended was to get as much as possible, inflict as much damage as possible, then negotiate a peace in which they would give up some of their gains in return for keeping the bulk of them.

Such a strategy was probably unworkable due to the screwup with the "declaration of war" that was supposed to served 10 minutes before the attack at Pearl occured. However, because the Japanese Embassy in DC was shorthanded on Sunday Dec 7, the transcription of the declaration was delayed for hours. Even if it had been on time, it still would have been too late, because the attack commenced 15 minutes prior to plan and would have occured prior to the intended delivery of the declaration.

Yokahama wanted a least an hour pre warning... he was overruled. When he found out that the attack occured prior to the delivery of the declaration, he was livid. He knew then that the war would probably be a disaster for Japan... he was right

Don't think we would have signed a truce, even if the JIN threatened PH, but it would have been a long, long war.

 

[whitehall]

The US was afflicted with an almost criminal racial bigotry toward the Japanese before the war which led to the US being unprepared for Pearl Harbor and later the Philippines. In retrospect we are still guilty of underestimating the Japanese. Of course the Japanese figured out that a bunch of planes were falling out of the sky because they were out of gas and they plotted every possible takeoff point. It is also quite likely that the pilots taken prisoner were tortured into divulging details of the mission. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the myth of disorganization and panic in Japan that legend seems to encourage did not happen and Doolittle's raid had no strategic value.

And Japan was never (affected "by almost") racial bigotry, either. They were TOTAL racists. I have a revelation here for you: The Japanese didn't invade Manchuria (China) with pure altruistic motives. From 1931 onwards the Japanese didn't hesitate to slaughter those "inferior" Chinese, Koreans, Burmese or all those pesky people of European extraction either, nosireebob. And they thought that dropping bombs on Pearl Harbor would somehow preserve their dominance of the pacific. I am not sure how ANYONE can paint the Japanese as "victims". If they do, they really are missing the point. The imperial Japanese and the German Nazis were both racial supreemist groups that wanted to dominate the world.

Let me clarify my opinion. I'm not talking about the race card type of racism we see today. Racism toward the Japanese was a systemic part of American culture and it's not surprising that it even reached into the inept amateurish "intelligence" network we joking relied on. It's true, the prevailing belief in congress before Pearl Harbor was that the Japanese were buck toothed little monkeys who had balance problems and couldn't fly a plane much less build one.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Don't think we would have signed a truce, even if the JIN threatened PH, but it would have been a long, long war.

Agreed... your 18 month estimate was probably accurate. The attack on Pearl Harbor was viewed by the American public to be a devious sneak attack which had to be avenged.... A truce upon terms favorable to the Japanese would have been impossible from a political standpoint regardless of anything else. Now if a formal declaration had preceeded the attack, maybe...

 

[jon_berzerk]

Pretty long stretch to connect Doolittle's 30 minutes over Tokyo with the Japanese decision to capture Midway.

why is that so hard to believe

It isn't. The problem may be that today's world takes forever to coordinate something huge.

WWII witnessed all the nations moving as quickly as possibly, sometimes recklessly or worse, to get there first with the most (to paraphrase one of our Confederate generals).

If the Japanese Navy had managed to get those American carriers at Midway, our war time schedule may have been delayed as much as 18 months.

perhaps however they under estimated us when they set the trap

 

[jon_berzerk]

Japan knew there was only a small possibility she she could not win the war when it bombed Pearl Harbor so what was Japan's strategy?

I think Japan held dangerously flawed and fatal assumptions about the US also. I think they thought the US didn't have the heart for war and would cave into demands about expansion and oil.

plus they didnt know that we had been listening in on them