Does Electoral Map reflect America? Did Trump manipulate the vote, and if so, was it justified?

emilynghiem

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These 10 Maps Show the Nation's Turned Red--Here's How Complete Trump & GOP's Domination Really Was

I asked for a better map showing the Votes distributed by county but haven't found one.
Above is one link I did find, comparing maps,
but I still wanted something more clear. Can I ask for help, if anyone found one better?

My questions are
A. Does this pink/red spread really represent the vote and voice of the nation?
B. If candidates like Trump manipulated the media and vote to get this result, by using the same tactics the media has been hyping, of playing the celebrity and crisis card both to extremes to stay relevant and in the headlines,
if underneath that media facade ARE core values that aren't being paraded in the media and public for votes,
is it justified to abuse media tactics to emotionally sway the vote, when underneath there are serious principles at stake that aren't selling in the media, so the only way to win is to play the hyped up media game for the election?

Is this good or bad?

I guess this is like asking
is it okay to use "marketing gimmicks" if that is the only way.

I KNOW that if what you're selling is bad, of course, the marketing gimmicks are unethical. But if you believe the real content is good, is it justified to play games to win at risk of distracting from real issues that should be the key.
 
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emilynghiem

emilynghiem

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So yiostheoy if it is rigged, is it okay to buck the system in the wrong ways to challenge that rigging.
If the only way to beat Clinton was to beat Cruz, does that justify false slandering statements
about him and his father "in order to play the game to win."

Does the ends justify the means?
Does it defeat the purpose or allow the purpose to be met despite the gameplaying?

Of course it is all RIGGED !!

Hahaha !!!
 

Pogo

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These 10 Maps Show the Nation's Turned Red--Here's How Complete Trump & GOP's Domination Really Was

I asked for a better map showing the Votes distributed by county but haven't found one.
Above is one link I did find, comparing maps,
but I still wanted something more clear. Can I ask for help, if anyone found one better?

My questions are
A. Does this pink/red spread really represent the vote and voice of the nation?
B. If candidates like Trump manipulated the media and vote to get this result, by using the same tactics the media has been hyping, of playing the celebrity and crisis card both to extremes to stay relevant and in the headlines,
if underneath that media facade ARE core values that aren't being paraded in the media and public for votes,
is it justified to abuse media tactics to emotionally sway the vote, when underneath there are serious principles at stake that aren't selling in the media, so the only way to win is to play the hyped up media game for the election?

Is this good or bad?

I guess this is like asking
is it okay to use "marketing gimmicks" if that is the only way.

I KNOW that if what you're selling is bad, of course, the marketing gimmicks are unethical. But if you believe the real content is good, is it justified to play games to win at risk of distracting from real issues that should be the key.
..
Em, I think what you're looking for might be something like this?


I was looking for one myself a little while ago but did not find one for this week's election. The above is from 2012. And it really should include a neutral and light colors to indicate population density.

It's a useful model since it reflects real votes (people) rather than artificial EV ones (states, or counties), and perhaps most valuably it shows we are not a "red" nation or a "blue" nation but a "purple" nation. E pluribus unum.
 
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emilynghiem

emilynghiem

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Thanks
These 10 Maps Show the Nation's Turned Red--Here's How Complete Trump & GOP's Domination Really Was

I asked for a better map showing the Votes distributed by county but haven't found one.
Above is one link I did find, comparing maps,
but I still wanted something more clear. Can I ask for help, if anyone found one better?

My questions are
A. Does this pink/red spread really represent the vote and voice of the nation?
B. If candidates like Trump manipulated the media and vote to get this result, by using the same tactics the media has been hyping, of playing the celebrity and crisis card both to extremes to stay relevant and in the headlines,
if underneath that media facade ARE core values that aren't being paraded in the media and public for votes,
is it justified to abuse media tactics to emotionally sway the vote, when underneath there are serious principles at stake that aren't selling in the media, so the only way to win is to play the hyped up media game for the election?

Is this good or bad?

I guess this is like asking
is it okay to use "marketing gimmicks" if that is the only way.

I KNOW that if what you're selling is bad, of course, the marketing gimmicks are unethical. But if you believe the real content is good, is it justified to play games to win at risk of distracting from real issues that should be the key.
..
Em, I think what you're looking for might be something like this?


I was looking for one myself a little while ago but did not find one for this week's election. The above is from 2012. And it really should include a neutral and light colors to indicate population density.

It's a useful model since it reflects real votes (people) rather than artificial EV ones (states, or counties), and perhaps most valuably it shows we are not a "red" nation or a "blue" nation but a "purple" nation. E pluribus unum.
Thanks Pogo and look at this comment that spins it the other way;

redmap85chance.jpg


I like this statement because it points out that even WITH the Electoral vote spread favoring Trump,
it STILL gives the other candidate 85% chance of winning.

So instead of BLAMING the winning vote for overriding the popular vote,
it's saying it makes it a more even race that either candidate can win if people VOTE.

I haven't heard THAT before.
And this coming from a fellow Democrat? Whodda thunk?
 

aris2chat

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We are not a democracy, nor a mob rule. We are a representative republic of states. The "United" States
Each state's citizens vote for president and each state then takes those votes and votes for president. Only two states are not winner take all.

The Federalist Papers - Bill of Rights Institute

Go back to US government 101

Each state had a change for the people to decide and now their representative will vote in congress according to each states decision.

Founding father were smarter than most back then and now

We should be proud of them and this country, and the states within it
 

Pogo

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We are not a democracy, nor a mob rule. We are a representative republic of states. The "United" States
Each state's citizens vote for president and each state then takes those votes and votes for president. Only two states are not winner take all.

The Federalist Papers - Bill of Rights Institute

Go back to US government 101

Each state had a change for the people to decide and now their representative will vote in congress according to each states decision.

Founding father were smarter than most back then and now

We should be proud of them and this country, and the states within it
AGAIN -- and we've done this all day -- this wasn't part of "Founding Fathers". It's the Twelfth Amendment, and it was put in place to equalize Slave Power states. Which by the way no longer exists.
 

aris2chat

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upload_2016-11-11_20-6-33.png


That is a lot of red states

remove the false votes by the dead and illegals........... Trump wins the popular vote as well

Time to accept and work together as one nation
 

Pogo

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Thanks
These 10 Maps Show the Nation's Turned Red--Here's How Complete Trump & GOP's Domination Really Was

I asked for a better map showing the Votes distributed by county but haven't found one.
Above is one link I did find, comparing maps,
but I still wanted something more clear. Can I ask for help, if anyone found one better?

My questions are
A. Does this pink/red spread really represent the vote and voice of the nation?
B. If candidates like Trump manipulated the media and vote to get this result, by using the same tactics the media has been hyping, of playing the celebrity and crisis card both to extremes to stay relevant and in the headlines,
if underneath that media facade ARE core values that aren't being paraded in the media and public for votes,
is it justified to abuse media tactics to emotionally sway the vote, when underneath there are serious principles at stake that aren't selling in the media, so the only way to win is to play the hyped up media game for the election?

Is this good or bad?

I guess this is like asking
is it okay to use "marketing gimmicks" if that is the only way.

I KNOW that if what you're selling is bad, of course, the marketing gimmicks are unethical. But if you believe the real content is good, is it justified to play games to win at risk of distracting from real issues that should be the key.
..
Em, I think what you're looking for might be something like this?


I was looking for one myself a little while ago but did not find one for this week's election. The above is from 2012. And it really should include a neutral and light colors to indicate population density.

It's a useful model since it reflects real votes (people) rather than artificial EV ones (states, or counties), and perhaps most valuably it shows we are not a "red" nation or a "blue" nation but a "purple" nation. E pluribus unum.
Thanks Pogo and look at this comment that spins it the other way;

View attachment 98085

I like this statement because it points out that even WITH the Electoral vote spread favoring Trump,
it STILL gives the other candidate 85% chance of winning.

So instead of BLAMING the winning vote for overriding the popular vote,
it's saying it makes it a more even race that either candidate can win if people VOTE.

I haven't heard THAT before.
And this coming from a fellow Democrat? Whodda thunk?
As I've been posting all day, or however long the discussion's been going on, the Electoral College system discourages voting in any state that isn't competitive. And that keeps turnout down and it ensures that that state will stay where it is red or blue. Because there's no point in going to cast a vote for President, when your state has already decided for you. Even if you agree with your state, there's no point.
 
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emilynghiem

emilynghiem

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Dear aris2chat which person are you addressing?
We are talking about two different things.
A. I'm talking about winning the game in the MEDIA of influencing voters to vote, and if that's justifiable to get them to vote for the wrong reasons, if it still results in getting the vote out in itself.

B. you are talking about the Electoral system in itself
I already stated the changes I would make
1. to also divide states into districts and apply the same logic again, where Electoral votes that the state
has are divided proportionally among the more populous and less populous counties and districts,
so the major cities don't dominate or dictate over the rest of the state (for the same reason we apply this nationally)
So you might agree with that if you agree that it helps on a national level, what about within a state as well?

2. Because there are third parties, and this can divides votes and affect a race based on electoral votes,
I'd prefer it where the winning candidate has to win BOTH the Electoral college vote and the Popular vote.
so if it's a tie, the same process is run again, but minus the interference of third parties.
Someone else pointed out that this should also be run using the same Electoral College vote.

In addition:
3. I'd set up an informal party process of representing minority interests by party,
like through a coalition of parties and media that operates by cooperation and consensus,
not by collusion and coercion. This would empower all people of all parties to share ideas and possible propose reforms or implement their own solutions they can organize collectively by pooling resources together.


We are not a democracy, nor a mob rule. We are a representative republic of states. The "United" States
Each state's citizens vote for president and each state then takes those votes and votes for president. Only two states are not winner take all.

The Federalist Papers - Bill of Rights Institute

Go back to US government 101

Each state had a change for the people to decide and now their representative will vote in congress according to each states decision.

Founding father were smarter than most back then and now

We should be proud of them and this country, and the states within it
 

Pogo

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View attachment 98086

That is a lot of red states

remove the false votes by the dead and illegals........... Trump wins the popular vote as well

Time to accept and work together as one nation
And again the problem with maps like this is not only is it showing artificial votes (EVs) but its colors in no way reflect voting -- they reflect land area.

A population-proportional map looks quite different.

 
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emilynghiem

emilynghiem

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Thanks
These 10 Maps Show the Nation's Turned Red--Here's How Complete Trump & GOP's Domination Really Was

I asked for a better map showing the Votes distributed by county but haven't found one.
Above is one link I did find, comparing maps,
but I still wanted something more clear. Can I ask for help, if anyone found one better?

My questions are
A. Does this pink/red spread really represent the vote and voice of the nation?
B. If candidates like Trump manipulated the media and vote to get this result, by using the same tactics the media has been hyping, of playing the celebrity and crisis card both to extremes to stay relevant and in the headlines,
if underneath that media facade ARE core values that aren't being paraded in the media and public for votes,
is it justified to abuse media tactics to emotionally sway the vote, when underneath there are serious principles at stake that aren't selling in the media, so the only way to win is to play the hyped up media game for the election?

Is this good or bad?

I guess this is like asking
is it okay to use "marketing gimmicks" if that is the only way.

I KNOW that if what you're selling is bad, of course, the marketing gimmicks are unethical. But if you believe the real content is good, is it justified to play games to win at risk of distracting from real issues that should be the key.
..
Em, I think what you're looking for might be something like this?


I was looking for one myself a little while ago but did not find one for this week's election. The above is from 2012. And it really should include a neutral and light colors to indicate population density.

It's a useful model since it reflects real votes (people) rather than artificial EV ones (states, or counties), and perhaps most valuably it shows we are not a "red" nation or a "blue" nation but a "purple" nation. E pluribus unum.
Thanks Pogo and look at this comment that spins it the other way;

View attachment 98085

I like this statement because it points out that even WITH the Electoral vote spread favoring Trump,
it STILL gives the other candidate 85% chance of winning.

So instead of BLAMING the winning vote for overriding the popular vote,
it's saying it makes it a more even race that either candidate can win if people VOTE.

I haven't heard THAT before.
And this coming from a fellow Democrat? Whodda thunk?
As I've been posting all day, or however long the discussion's been going on, the Electoral College system discourages voting in any state that isn't competitive. And that keeps turnout down and it ensures that that state will stay where it is red or blue. Because there's no point in going to cast a vote for President, when your state has already decided for you. Even if you agree with your state, there's no point.
Could that be changed by splitting Electoral votes by district?
Or having an internalized system of representation by party that doesn't directly affect govt elections and votes?
 
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emilynghiem

emilynghiem

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Yes Pogo that's more what I wanted, by population. but is that so detailed that it's hard to depict clearly?
I think one person posted a grey map showing population, and I just couldn't read it that well.
is that why it's done by land area so it's more visible?

View attachment 98086

That is a lot of red states

remove the false votes by the dead and illegals........... Trump wins the popular vote as well

Time to accept and work together as one nation
And again the problem with maps like this is not only is it showing artificial votes (EVs) but its colors in no way reflect voting -- they reflect land area.

A population-proportional map looks quite different.
 

MarathonMike

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My concerns about the Electoral College are all about Texas. With a vigorous registration campaign, in 4 years Texas could flip blue. At that point the Presidential election turns into a rubber stamp for Democrats forever.
 

Pogo

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to also divide states into districts and apply the same logic again, where Electoral votes that the state
has are divided proportionally among the more populous and less populous counties and districts,
so the major cities don't dominate or dictate over the rest of the state (for the same reason we apply this nationally)
Actually that's not why we do it nationally. That's a whitewash story to hush up the real reason we do it, which is (was) slavery.
 

Pogo

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View attachment 98086

That is a lot of red states

remove the false votes by the dead and illegals........... Trump wins the popular vote as well

Time to accept and work together as one nation
And again the problem with maps like this is not only is it showing artificial votes (EVs) but its colors in no way reflect voting -- they reflect land area.

A population-proportional map looks quite different.
Yes Pogo that's more what I wanted, by population. but is that so detailed that it's hard to depict clearly?
I think one person posted a grey map showing population, and I just couldn't read it that well.
is that why it's done by land area so it's more visible?
They basically blow up areas of higher population (because more votes) and shrink areas of lower, because fewer. The resulting distortion looks nothing like a political map ("political" in the cartographic sense) but it's not supposed to -- it represents how the country votes.

The one with the blue and red states implies that that square-mile area of Wyoming voted red to the same degree that upper northeast blot (that's Boston) voted blue, which of course it doesn't .
 

Pogo

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My concerns about the Electoral College are all about Texas. With a vigorous registration campaign, in 4 years Texas could flip blue. At that point the Presidential election turns into a rubber stamp for Democrats forever.
That's another good argument. :thup:
 

aris2chat

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View attachment 98086

That is a lot of red states

remove the false votes by the dead and illegals........... Trump wins the popular vote as well

Time to accept and work together as one nation
And again the problem with maps like this is not only is it showing artificial votes (EVs) but its colors in no way reflect voting -- they reflect land area.

A population-proportional map looks quite different.

People choose in each state. Representatives of each state then vote for president.
We do no have a democracy, we have a representative system.
Used to only property owners could vote, now every citizen over 18 can vote.

The winner of each state gets the number of votes equal to the representatives of that state. We began with only 13 states, now we have 50.

go back to the federalist papers

12th amentdment was ratified in 1804

 

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