Do you think America's best days for the middle class are behind us?

[westwall]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

Defeatist? Wow. You remind me of the NKVD and their commissars who murdered "defeatist" troops. Reducing government control of the people is always a good thing. Unfortunately progressivism generates MORE government control. Progressivism is evil.

 

[Avatar4321]

I disagree with the premises that classes exist.

I will say that we haven't begun to see Americas best days

Not only should we not force people to educate themselves, we literally can't.






You can't? Hillary can do things that you could never do. Congress is exempt from Anti Trust Laws, and you can state without the slightest bit of objectivity that classes don't exist? Get real.

I disagree with the premises that classes exist.

I disagree with the premises that classes exist.

I will say that we haven't begun to see Americas best days

You can't? Hillary can do things that you could never do. Congress is exempt from Anti Trust Laws, and you can state without the slightest bit of objectivity that classes don't exist? Get real.

Classes are artificial political constructs used to divide us. They don't actually exist.

1. Debt goes up consistently, nothing gets done. Eventually we run out of money, or economy suffers greatly.

2. Until recently, there wasn't weapons that few could use to kill many that could not be stopped defensively. Now there is. 5 people can destroy a city with the correct weapon, or kill 100s of thousands.

3. Cultures were separated by enough space, that both cultures could thrive. That is no longer the case if a culture happens to be aggressive.

4. Americans are D-U-M-B! Why? Because they should FORCE the opposing politicians and the top economists to sit down, on television, create a national holiday so every adult can watch, and let them prove from their perspective if it is government over taxation on business along with over regulation, or rather corporate greed that spirits jobs away. I don't blame conservatives or liberals for their positions, since surely one set of them have been brainwashed. Therefore, we need discover which ones are!

5. If the middle class is to die in this country, it is so the poor can live better, for surely it is not the rich being dragged down. Now, while the government tells you that is not so, it is. How do we know? Because the rich get richer, more people go on government programs, and the middle class shrinks, therefore logic tells us that the middle class is carrying the brunt of these payments. And it will not change unless we go Marxist. Why? Because rich people have enough money to leave anytime they wish and take their money with them. It is we who can't! So when someone tells you that the rich are going to pay for something, book the fact it is you!

 

[LoneLaugher]

That again reminds me of the Roman Empires system of fortifications that they had built behind the Rhine and Danube rivers. The Roman Republic of old did not need such fortifications because every Roman was a soldier and would do their duty when called upon to repell the barbarian invader or the capricious Carthaginian.

But by the fifth century the Roman legion was a shadow of its old self and few people regarded themselves as Romans. Their race had died off years before that and only the name itself had survived. But all would be dandy because the Rhine and Danube rivers would hold back the barbarian hordes long enough for the local frontier forces to drive them off as they crossed.

Then in the winter of 406 the unthinkable happened; the Rhine River completely froze over so that entire tribes of starving German hordes could simply walk across the river defences. Crossing of the Rhine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh shit said the Tribune.
God damn said the Pontiff
Holy fuck said the whores
and everyone was cut down like weeds in the wind
the innocent bled out along with the criminals in and out of power.

More than their corruption, their immorality blinded them to perversion, and the perversions fed their greed and their greed blinded them to the very fragile ice they had placed their empire on till it finally melted beneath them.

Yes, our Senate is remarkably similar to the Roman Senate...before they were all killed and Rome became a totalitarian Empire.

Isnt it amazing how history can so often rhyme?

No, what's amazing to me is the greater fool who thinks they can ignore the lessons of history. They seem to proliferate at times like these.

Why do you have so many spaces in your posts? Are you "pausing" for effect?

That again reminds me of the Roman Empires system of fortifications that they had built behind the Rhine and Danube rivers. The Roman Republic of old did not need such fortifications because every Roman was a soldier and would do their duty when called upon to repell the barbarian invader or the capricious Carthaginian.

But by the fifth century the Roman legion was a shadow of its old self and few people regarded themselves as Romans. Their race had died off years before that and only the name itself had survived. But all would be dandy because the Rhine and Danube rivers would hold back the barbarian hordes long enough for the local frontier forces to drive them off as they crossed.

Then in the winter of 406 the unthinkable happened; the Rhine River completely froze over so that entire tribes of starving German hordes could simply walk across the river defences. Crossing of the Rhine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh shit said the Tribune.
God damn said the Pontiff
Holy fuck said the whores
and everyone was cut down like weeds in the wind
the innocent bled out along with the criminals in and out of power.

More than their corruption, their immorality blinded them to perversion, and the perversions fed their greed and their greed blinded them to the very fragile ice they had placed their empire on till it finally melted beneath them.

Yes, our Senate is remarkably similar to the Roman Senate...before they were all killed and Rome became a totalitarian Empire.

Isnt it amazing how history can so often rhyme?

No, what's amazing to me is the greater fool who thinks they can ignore the lessons of history. They seem to proliferate at times like these.

Why do you have so many spaces in your posts? Are you "pausing" for effect?

Ummmm. It'called PUNCTUATION. You should learn English.

No....asshole. When you quote someone....your fuckng comment is about 20 lines down the fucking page. You must know that you do it. Why act like a dick?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Because of globalization, technological advances and automation, our middle class may not get all the way back, even if certain legislation does pass.

JimBowie1958 started an interesting thread (it's in the Clean Debate Zone, be aware, trolls) asking whether we'll end up having to create a universal base income of some kind: CDZ - Why not have a 'Universal Basic Income' to replace welfare?

It's a reasonable conversation to have, if we can find some reasonable people to have it.
.

I'm reasonable. Would you like to have a discussion about a guaranteed minimum income?

 

[Rozman]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive.

Is this democrat code speak for being more GAY?

 

[sealybobo]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

Gone are the days where everyone can have 2-4 kids. Poor people are going to have one or two kids not 3 or 4 and expect them all to be middle class. People just won't have as many kids.

 

[westwall]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

Gone are the days where everyone can have 2-4 kids. Poor people are going to have one or two kids not 3 or 4 and expect them all to be middle class. People just won't have as many kids.

Good luck with that theory. The facts are that wealthier people have fewer kids. That's why the best way to reduce the human population is to make everyone wealthier. Wealth means you have better things to do than taking care of (or not as the case may be) kids. The third world has high birth rates because the kids a re a source of labor, and they have a high mortality rate.

 

[jasonnfree]

As long as talented and educated, as well as low wage workers can be brought to this country to keep wages low, and companies can be offshored to wherever for maximum profit, I don't see how the middle class can ever get back to where it was. The game is rigged for the very wealthy. Every billionaire now has his own private senator or congressman, and maximum profit is now the first goal of corporations -wasn't always that way, since the founders of the country didn't trust corporations (remember the boston tea party), back in the beginning, and put restrictions on corporations to keep them from getting too much power. This is why Trump is well hated by the owners of America. He's a threat to the status quo, with his talk of tariffs and deep sixing the trade pacts that have destroyed well paying manufacturing jobs here. IMO anyway.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive.

Is this democrat code speak for being more GAY?

No. I'm not interested in you. I'm a straight guy. Sorry.

 

[jasonnfree]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

Defeatist? Wow. You remind me of the NKVD and their commissars who murdered "defeatist" troops. Reducing government control of the people is always a good thing. Unfortunately progressivism generates MORE government control. Progressivism is evil.

Yeah, too bad we had a progressive like fdr who ruined the country by putting people back to work and by bringing in social security, which has kept millions from poverty to this very day.

 

[westwall]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

Defeatist? Wow. You remind me of the NKVD and their commissars who murdered "defeatist" troops. Reducing government control of the people is always a good thing. Unfortunately progressivism generates MORE government control. Progressivism is evil.

Yeah, too bad we had a progressive like fdr who ruined the country by putting people back to work and by bringing in social security, which keeps millions from poverty.

FDR arguably prolonged the Depression because of his meddling policies. Just like Bush and Obama in this generation did tremendous damage to the economy by not letting the various corporations fail. We the taxpayer got to pay all of those debts and the arrogant pricks had the fucking gall to give themselves bonuses. They should all be rotting in prison right now but no, the Bush/Obama admins sucked their collective dicks and gave them what they wanted.

Assholes.

 

[jasonnfree]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

Defeatist? Wow. You remind me of the NKVD and their commissars who murdered "defeatist" troops. Reducing government control of the people is always a good thing. Unfortunately progressivism generates MORE government control. Progressivism is evil.

Yeah, too bad we had a progressive like fdr who ruined the country by putting people back to work and by bringing in social security, which keeps millions from poverty.

FDR arguably prolonged the Depression because of his meddling policies. Just like Bush and Obama in this generation did tremendous damage to the economy by not letting the various corporations fail. We the taxpayer got to pay all of those debts and the arrogant pricks had the fucking gall to give themselves bonuses. They should all be rotting in prison right now but no, the Bush/Obama admins sucked their collective dicks and gave them what they wanted.

Assholes.

At least you said arguably. America was at rock bottom when fdr got in. He actually made things better, built the TVA etc. Some say that WW2 bailed us out of the depression, but why would building weapons of of destruction end a depression, where building infrastructure for the future, wouldn't? Bush/Obama? Who else would those two serve, if not the big banks and corporations? Every billionaire now has his own senator or congressman. Only sanders and trump not bought and paid for by big money. IMO anyway.

 

[westwall]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No. Real Americans don't have defeatist attitudes like that. We are slowly...but steadily.....becoming more progressive. It's a tough row to hoe....as we have a sizable population of idiots...but we are getting it done. The more progressive....the stronger the middle class.

You can't beat us....you may as well join us.

Defeatist? Wow. You remind me of the NKVD and their commissars who murdered "defeatist" troops. Reducing government control of the people is always a good thing. Unfortunately progressivism generates MORE government control. Progressivism is evil.

Yeah, too bad we had a progressive like fdr who ruined the country by putting people back to work and by bringing in social security, which keeps millions from poverty.

FDR arguably prolonged the Depression because of his meddling policies. Just like Bush and Obama in this generation did tremendous damage to the economy by not letting the various corporations fail. We the taxpayer got to pay all of those debts and the arrogant pricks had the fucking gall to give themselves bonuses. They should all be rotting in prison right now but no, the Bush/Obama admins sucked their collective dicks and gave them what they wanted.

Assholes.

At least you said arguably. America was at rock bottom when fdr got in. He actually made things better, built the TVA etc. Some say that WW2 bailed us out of the depression, but why would building weapons of of destruction end a depression, where building infrastructure for the future, wouldn't? Bush/Obama? Who else would those two serve, if not the big banks and corporations? Every billionaire now has his own senator or congressman. Only sanders and trump not bought and paid for by big money. IMO anyway.

How, exactly, did he make things better?

 

[PredFan]

What? Liberals have been telling us that 0bama fixed everything.

No we haven't. Why lie?

Yes you have liar.

 

[Old Rocks]

I wanted the USMB crew to weigh in on this

No, not at all. The present middle class is doing very well. But, without a trade or education, you are not going to be able to be part of it. There are five million good paying jobs in this nation going begging, technical jobs like millwrights, electricians, and automation people, for lack of qualified people. Learn a trade, get an education, and move up to the middle class.

Be lazy, and fail to, stay in minimum wage jobs, when they are available. If a job is so simple it can be done by an uneducated person, it will be done better by a machine.

 

[Old Rocks]

America's best days in general are behind us

Bullshit! This nation has many good days ahead of it. There are problems that need fixed, but that has always been the case, and will continue to be the case in the future. I find it amazing that all the 'Conservatives' here are such pessimists. One of Reagan's better qualities was his optimism concerning the future of our nation. So, 'Conservatives', time you woke and smelled the coffee.

 

[LoneLaugher]

What? Liberals have been telling us that 0bama fixed everything.

No we haven't. Why lie?

Yes you have liar.

Nope. Obama has hardly fixed everything. Nobody has claimed that he's fixed everything.....or most things. You have ODS. You hear things that aren't said, see things that aren't there and feel things that have no basis in reality.

It's something that you will continue to suffer from until you die. It's a symptom of being stupid.

 

[Wilbur Right]

There are five million good paying jobs in this nation going begging, technical jobs like millwrights, electricians, and automation people, for lack of qualified people. Learn a trade, get an education, and move up to the middle class.

Here is the problem with that idea. And it is a good idea.

When I started my tool and die apprenticeship, I already had two full years of machine shop in high school. I had advance math. I could read well. This was 1971.

FF to today.

No machine shops in area high schools.
The kids with advanced math and reading skills go to college.
The kids not in college have reading difficulties and poor math skills.

When I started my apprenticeship, when I walked in the door I was a productive employee.
Today an employer has to train before they can get any work done by the new hire apprentice.

What are employers supposed to do without educated, motivated new hires for highly skilled, non college type jobs?

 

[Old Rocks]

And every major civilization has always....ALWAYS fallen. Looks like the people sounding the warnings, were correct.

How many times has it been said compared to the number of times it happened? That's the point. I can say "watch out, something bad is going to happen". Everyone will applaud when I'm right and promptly forget all the times I was wrong.

Every single time. The length of time that it takes for the fall to occur is the only question. The second that a large number of people start telling you there is a problem, you had better listen.

Well, you see, you are a prime example of the type of people that have the head buried in the sand. Almost all the scientists in world are telling us that we have a problem with global warming, but you refuse to acknowledge the cause of that problem. Now, if all the major people in politics and economics were saying we have a major problem, I would worry, but the are not. They say we do have problems with income inequality, but then outline solutions to that problem. And the various politicians choose who they think has the best solutions, then we choose among those politicians. A cumbersome system whose only defense is that it has worked better than any other system tried thus far.

So, do I think that we have problems to address? Yes. Are they major or insurmountable problems? No.

 

[Old Rocks]

There are five million good paying jobs in this nation going begging, technical jobs like millwrights, electricians, and automation people, for lack of qualified people. Learn a trade, get an education, and move up to the middle class.

Here is the problem with that idea. And it is a good idea.

When I started my tool and die apprenticeship, I already had two full years of machine shop in high school. I had advance math. I could read well. This was 1971.

FF to today.

No machine shops in area high schools.
The kids with advanced math and reading skills go to college.
The kids not in college have reading difficulties and poor math skills.

When I started my apprenticeship, when I walked in the door I was a productive employee.
Today an employer has to train before they can get any work done by the new hire apprentice.

What are employers supposed to do without educated, motivated new hires for highly skilled, non college type jobs?

OK, you have some good points. I am a millwright with over 50 years experiance, and still working. Now, what we do in my company is require production people to assist the maintenance people when the line goes down. And part of our job, as technicians, is to evaluate the help we get. Then we make recomendations to the managers as to who to try to recruit for apprentice positions.

Now one of the people that I reccommended had poor reading and math skills. Yet he was a natural mechanic, and a hard worker. His supervisor told him that if he would upgrade those skills, he would recommend that he be awarded an apprenticeship in the millwright program. Now, with a paying goal in mind, in six months, he managed to learn basic math and algebra skills, and to read well enough to write work orders and out line job procedures.

Yes, many come out of school without no ambition, and then reality bites them. All too many just accept that they are not good enough and spend their time whining about it. But there are a good many, that realizing what is required, if given a way to achieve it, will do so. And it pays a business to work with these people.