Zone1 Do you believe this account of Hell from a 20th century Catholic nun?

[BackAgain]

I say you are not right. But only God can change your mind.

I say I’m right and maybe God will reveal the truth to you. He might be a little irked that you’d even momentarily accept the claim that He could be so hideously unjust.

But I’m expecting Him to forgive you.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I say I’m right and maybe God will reveal the truth to you. He might be a little irked that you’d even momentarily accept the claim that He could be so hideously unjust.

But I’m expecting Him to forgive you.

when did I say that God was hideously unjust?

to accept the notion of Hell looks like Justice itself.. considering all the hideous evil HUMANS do. Does God force people to do evil?

How would you feel if someone stole everything you had, then beat you within an inch of your life?

You would want that person punished. And if he didn't repent, you wouldn't mind him spending the rest of his life either in prison and/or in paying you back for all he had taken.. But what if you were so beaten you never regained use of your arms and legs? I don't think you would be feeling too compassionate toward that person. So why would GOD? Well, God does have compassion on criminals.. but if they do not repent and make reparation (mostly through accepting and loving Jesus), then that person himself is asking to be separated from God, who is all good.. whereas Hell is the loss of all that is good, all that is from God.

 

[BackAgain]

when did I say that God was hideously unjust?

You didn’t. I did. I said any God who would tolerate a Hell much less create one is unjust.

You’re free to consider Hell a just punishment. I don’t. I think the very notion of a Hell is beyond ridiculous. And I maintain that it is insanity itself. I also don’t believe God is insane.

 

[SweetSue92]

It does matter. For if I’m right (and I’m confident I am) I don’t have to fret about a God who is unjust.

Is it just to force someone who doesn't even like you, let alone LOVE you, to remain in your presence eternally?

Where people are joyfully worshipping you?

Heaven--where people joyfully worship God eternally.

Would a just God force people to go there?

 

[BackAgain]

Is it just to force someone who doesn't even like you, let alone LOVE you, to remain in your presence eternally?

Where people are joyfully worshipping you?

Heaven--where people joyfully worship God eternally.

Would a just God force people to go there?

Is there a genuine theory that God “forces” anyone to go to Heaven?

 

[notmyfault2020]

You didn’t. I did. I said any God who would tolerate a Hell much less create one is unjust.

You’re free to consider Hell a just punishment. I don’t. I think the very notion of a Hell is beyond ridiculous. And I maintain that it is insanity itself. I also don’t believe God is insane.

So you are saying that anyone who believes in Hell (I guess that would include Jesus since [it has been said] He spoke of Hell more than Heaven?) is insane?

You say you think the notion of Hell is ridiculous. But again, it does not matter what you think. What matters is truth (God's truth/reality).

My guess is you are very young. When I was younger, I didn't believe in Hell either. I may even have written the same words you have here (but no one ever asked my opinion on the subject).

I have been through some amazing things since I was that young... I'd be here all day today and the next day and longer if I were to explain what all happened in my life to change my mind. But for now, I will just pray for you. You do not know God and His perfect justice. I am not trying to insult you, just calling it as I see it. None of us is born knowing that kind of thing... But if I were to ignore all my experiences in the last few years and just write off Hell because it doesn't always make sense to me (I'm as human as anyone else obviously), that would be ignoring reality/Truth.. can't do that.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Is there a genuine theory that God “forces” anyone to go to Heaven?

I often... and I mean very often get the feeling God doesn't want anyone in Heaven (he certainly doesn't want their sins, that I know). Again, I'd be here all day trying to elaborate on that one... but isn't it interesting that a person who loves Jesus and prays all the time and belongs to His Church would think and feel such, even if only sporadically?

 

[BackAgain]

So you are saying that anyone who believes in Hell (I guess that would include Jesus since [it has been said] He spoke of Hell more than Heaven?) is insane?

No. I wouldn’t label the person insane. I just say that the belief is insane. I also deem it insulting to God.

You say you think the notion of Hell is ridiculous. But again, it does not matter what you think. What matters is truth (God's truth/reality).

I believe that my belief is the truth.

You believe that your belief is the truth.

What objectively IS the truth is not as clear.

My guess is you are very young.

Poor guess.

When I was younger, I didn't believe in Hell either.

When I was younger, so did I. But then I grew up.

I may even have written the same words you have here (but no one ever asked my opinion on the subject).

Ok.

I have been through some amazing things since I was that young... I'd be here all day today and the next day and longer if I were to explain what all happened in my life to change my mind. But for now, I will just pray for you.

That’s nice. Thanks.

You do not know God and His perfect justice.

I know quite well that “perfect justice” doesn’t include even the possibility of a Hell.

I am not trying to insult you, just calling it as I see it.

As I said before. I’m not trying to change your beliefs. You are welcome to them. I’m actually happy for you that your beliefs help you in life. I just so happen not to share your beliefs. That’s all. I hope that doesn’t “insult” you.

None of us is born knowing that kind of thing... But if I were to ignore all my experiences in the last few years and just write off Hell because it doesn't always make sense to me (I'm as human as anyone else obviously), that would be ignoring reality/Truth.. can't do that.

You haven’t been asked to ignore what you consider to be “truth.” I say only that what you believe to be true doesn’t make it true.

 

[notmyfault2020]

No. I wouldn’t label the person insane. I just say that the belief is insane. I also deem it insulting to God.

I believe that my belief is the truth.

You believe that your belief is the truth.

What objectively IS the truth is not as clear.

Poor guess.


When I was younger, so did I. But then I grew up.

Ok.

That’s nice. Thanks.

I know quite well that “perfect justice” doesn’t include even the possibility of a Hell.


As I said before. I’m not trying to change your beliefs. You are welcome to them. I’m actually happy for you that your beliefs help you in life. I just so happen not to share your beliefs. That’s all. I hope that doesn’t “insult” you.

You haven’t been asked to ignore what you consider to be “truth.” I say only that what you believe to be true doesn’t make it true.

Sorry, but objective truth IS find-able

Some people have it, some don't. But it is definitely find-able. Jesus, who is God, would not expect fallen humans to find it if it were not there, somewhere, to be found.

Instead, He said "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened."

 

[BackAgain]

Sorry, but objective truth IS find-able

In some things. Yes it is.

On a matter of religious belief, however, you’re simply wrong.

Some people have it, some don't. But it is definitely find-able. Jesus, who is God, would not expect fallen humans to find it if it were not there, somewhere, to be found.

Jesus is believed to be God may or may not be the Son of God — and therefore doesn’t constitute “knowable” evidence of any article of faith.

Instead, He said "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened."

Yes. That quote is attributable to Him.

But on its own, it doesn’t constitute proof. It is merely something that you BELIEVE to be true. And I’m happy for you. I don’t ask you not to believe. I also don’t resent that you ask me TO believe. It seems clear enough to me that you have a very fine motivation.

Still, after much consideration:

I believe in the Creator.

I don’t believe that the Creator cares at all whether we believe in Him or not.

And I don’t believe that any Supreme Being could be One who would create a Hell or even tolerate it’s existence.

Reasonable people may disagree.

 

[Meriweather]

No. I wouldn’t label the person insane. I just say that the belief is insane. I also deem it insulting to God.

Perhaps these other insights of St. Faustina may clarify that picture of hell. She is convinced God sends no one to hell, a soul chooses hell/separation from God.

"Only the soul that wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one" (Diary, 1452).

She also notes that the fire and tortures do not come from God, they come from Satan. The soul chooses hell over God, and the conditions in hell are set by Satan, not by God.

Note where it says they feel God's anger? What they are feeling is God's anger and opposition towards evil, a feeling Satan can supply. It is not God's anger towards the individual.

St. Faustina is adamant that the heart of Jesus is filled with mercy, and that we should all turn to life/existence with him--not apart from him. So why did she write such frightening things? It was to show the great magnitude of God's mercy. Remember, we have a choice...God or no God. If the choice is no God, then there is Satan to sweep us up--and into a place designed by him, not by God.

 

[Meriweather]

I don’t believe that the Creator cares at all whether we believe in Him or not.

You can believe/trust that He cares greatly about each one of us.

 

[Meriweather]

And I don’t believe that any Supreme Being could be One who would create a Hell or even tolerate it’s existence.

Reasonable people may disagree.

True, but we should take in the unofficial dogma of the Catholic Church (based on visions of other saints) that it is Satan and the demons who design and rule what goes on in hell, which is apart from God. The Catholic Church is firm in its teaching that a soul chooses hell--God, in His mercy--sends no one there.

 

[BackAgain]

Perhaps these other insights of St. Faustina may clarify that picture of hell. She is convinced God sends no one to hell, a soul chooses hell/separation from God.

"Only the soul that wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one" (Diary, 1452).

She also notes that the fire and tortures do not come from God, they come from Satan. The soul chooses hell over God, and the conditions in hell are set by Satan, not by God.

Note where it says they feel God's anger? What they are feeling is God's anger and opposition towards evil, a feeling Satan can supply. It is not God's anger towards the individual.

St. Faustina is adamant that the heart of Jesus is filled with mercy, and that we should all turn to life/existence with him--not apart from him. So why did she write such frightening things? It was to show the great magnitude of God's mercy. Remember, we have a choice...God or no God. If the choice is no God, then there is Satan to sweep us up--and into a place designed by him, not by God.

Assume an all powerful God. And consider justice, Rationality and fairness. Would an all powerful God allow Satan the ability and authority to torture anyone else? Or would such a God very simply refuse to allow Hell to exist?

 

[ding]

I don’t believe that the Creator cares at all whether we believe in Him or not.

Sorry to butt in but I asked myself the same question. The short answer is we know God cares about us because we receive feedback on our behaviors. It's like how parents teach children. They do stuff and we either give them positive feedback or negative feedback depending upon what they did. And the level of feedback would be proportional to the degree of what they did.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave.

 

[BackAgain]

You can believe/trust that He cares greatly about each one of us.

I don’t. I frankly assume that He (most often) doesn’t give us any thought whatsoever; similar to how we contemplate the little organisms floating in a lake when we go swimming there.

 

[ding]

True, but we should take in the unofficial dogma of the Catholic Church (based on visions of other saints) that it is Satan and the demons who design and rule what goes on in hell, which is apart from God. The Catholic Church is firm in its teaching that a soul chooses hell--God, in His mercy--sends no one there.

Does Catholic thought teach God created "hell"? Or does it teach that "hell" is a consequence of separation from God that was not chosen by God but by the soul that wanted to be separated from God?

 

[BackAgain]

Sorry to butt in but I asked myself the same question. The short answer is we know God cares about us because we receive feedback on our behaviors. It's like how parents teach children. They do stuff and we either give them positive feedback or negative feedback depending upon what they did. And the level of feedback would be proportional to the degree of what they did.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave.

You are NOT “butting in.” Not at all. It’s a message board and your input is valued and perfectly appropriate. That isn’t dependent on whether we all agree, either.

That said, I suppose I need to clarify something. I repeat that I believe in God
as the Creator of our entire universe.

I see little evidence supportive of the claim that He gives us feedback in any form.

I also happen to believe that morality doesn’t depend on any religious beliefs at all.

I also believe that none of us know or can know why God chose to create everything, unless He elects to share that reason and purpose with us. And there’s a problem there. If He did share it with someone (let’s say He sent His Son to do that for us), a person can choose to believe it. But another person might find it impossible to accept just on faith, alone.

 

[ding]

I don’t. I frankly assume that He (most often) doesn’t give us any thought whatsoever; similar to how we contemplate the little organisms floating in a lake when we go swimming there.

You have a hard eye. From my own personal experiences I cared about everything I created in my life. I'm guessing you did too. If so I am wondering why you think God would be any different.

You might want to start preparing yourself for what the full measure of the Holy Spirit will feel like because I suspect the people who are overwhelmed by the presence of pure goodness are the ones that won't be able to tolerate it and ask it to be removed. At which point they will get their wish and realize their mistake was in not living life in such a way that prepared them for pure goodness.

 

[Meriweather]

Assume an all powerful God. And consider justice, Rationality and fairness. Would an all powerful God allow Satan the ability and authority to torture anyone else? Or would such a God very simply refuse to allow Hell to exist?

St. Faustina, like any of us, is a product of her own time. She writes of hell in terms she and the people around her can understand. The first thing that comes across is what hell might be like for people who are good and loving.

I have an analogy (on a much smaller scale) of what it might be like for some to feel God's attitude toward evil. I am a substitute teacher. Every so often (especially at the middle school level) there are budding young men who actively seek seeing me irritated. At this immature age, it gives them a kick. Don't ask me why.

Who do you think understands what best pleasures evil than an evil being? For all we know, a present day saint might say, Evil people who choose hell see it as the best rides in a theme park. Good people see it as the site where they collect, dump, and burn trash.

I am not suggesting this is a better description of hell and its inhabitants, but how do you feel about God's opposition to evil? Do you believe compassion towards evil is the solution?