Do Conservatives know what health insurance is?

[Ernie S.]

Doesn't address the problem, quibble about the numbers if you wish but we are talking over 10 million people

If you are dumping them off of insurance you had better have a backup plan other than ....too bad for you

Lack of insurance can cause death, suffering or bankruptcy
None of which are a desirable option

No one is being dumped off of insurance. That happened when ACA was passed and thousands lost coverage through their employers. Repealing Obamacare means people aren't being forced to purchase insurance, that's not kicking anyone off.

Lack of insurance doesn't lead to death because health care is still available regardless of ability to pay. Bankruptcy laws are a good thing... it's preferable to debtor's prison. IF you are faced with the choice of having an operation to save your life and having to file bankruptcy as a result, or DYING... which would you choose? That's not a difficult choice.

What's not going to be a desirable option is when you get single payer and have to wait 9 months to see a doctor. That WILL cause death and suffering.

Lack of insurance doesn't lead to death because health care is still available regardless of ability to pay. Bankruptcy laws are a good thing... it's preferable to debtor's prison. IF you are faced with the choice of having an operation to save your life and having to file bankruptcy as

How callous
The rest of the world would be shocked that the richest country on earth allows people to lose all their possessions just because they got sick

Sell your house and you can get this operation....GOP healthcare

WHY is it my responsibility to subsidize your health care costs?
I've read the US Constitution dozens of times. I don't recall ever seeing anything about a right to health care funded by your fellow citizens.
I DO see that my right to keep and bear arms is plainly spelled out. How would you feel if you were compelled by law to purchase a Smith and Wesson in .357 Sig for me.

 

[The Derp]

If you need an appendectomy, you get an appendectomy, just like before obamacare.

OK, but who pays for it if you don't have insurance or the cash to do so? That's the question you guys never seem to have an answer for other than, don't get an appendectomy...which isn't an option because if you don't get one when you have appendicitis you die. And when you die, you're also incurring medical costs because you don't get thrown from where you dropped dead right to the grave.

What do you think happens when someone gets appendicitis? Have you had appendicitis? Have you known anyone who has had it?

 

[The Derp]

You are without a doubt, the most ignorant person I ever heard discussing health insurance. You really should confine your discussion to something you are familiar with, like licking bus windows or picking your nose.

It's obvious you don't know what health insurance is, what insurance companies do, and how any of it relates to your actual health care. Insulting me isn't going to suddenly make you understand any of it.

 

[The Derp]

WHY is it my responsibility to subsidize your health care costs?

You do that anyway when you pay for insurance. If you incur more health care costs than premiums you pay, then everyone in your insurance pool is subsidizing your health care costs. You work from the assumption that you get the same amount of health care out of the system that you contribute in premiums you put into the system. And that's not understanding what health insurance is.

I've read the US Constitution dozens of times. I don't recall ever seeing anything about a right to health care funded by your fellow citizens..

The government provides for the general welfare. Health care is general welfare.

I DO see that my right to keep and bear arms is plainly spelled out.

No, it's not plainly spelled out. It's very ambiguous. The current understanding of the Second Amendment is recent to only about 10 years ago. For the 230 years prior, the understanding was different. And that understanding will evolve and change over time as more cases are brought before the Supreme Court.

How would you feel if you were compelled by law to purchase a Smith and Wesson in .357 Sig for me.

A gun isn't a necessity. Health care is. Your poor health directly impacts the amount I pay in premiums. Not only that, but your health also affects my person if you are going into public with a communicable disease because you didn't get treatment/immunization/vaccination/etc. If you were a true Libertarian (which seems to be what you're getting at), then as a libertarian is it incumbent on you to not have an adverse affect on your neighbor's health. Because that's how you let someone be free to do what they want, don't force them into health care because of your poor choices that take no one else into account.

I think you think you have a license to be selfish. You don't.

 

[The Derp]

Support 'single payer' for what, these people and their employers paid into a system their whole working lives to have medical coverage paid for in their old age. They and their employers did not pay into that system for an insurance company could demand their cut.

Support single payer so the insurance company can't take a cut because they don't exist. A single payer makes private insurance moot. Think about what it is an insurance company actually does; administration. So if instead of myriad insurers all processing reimbursement, it's done by one single entity with no profit motive. So no one is "taking a cut" in that scenario because there's no one trying to profit off administration. Do insurance companies innovate better ways for providers to be reimbursed? No. In fact, most of them use Medicare's standard as their standard. Does innovating better ways for providers to be reimbursed result in improved outcomes from health care? No. Because that reimbursement is done after your provider treats you. So insurance companies aren't even germane to health care. They're just the folks who make sure your provider is reimbursed. That's it. That's all they do.

Apparently you are unaware that each state operates its own department for environmental issues for pollutants to air and water in the environment within their state. In this case where my friends are the dairies moved out of California and relocated to Idaho. The state of Idaho has a Department of Environmental Quality and it has its own legislators the make the laws and rules for business enterprises to follow. That is no guarantee that unscrupulous peeps won't abuse the environment. It is up to my friends to make a complaint against the dairy farmer after they have their water tested but see your insurance racketeers medical gurus that have gotten used to being guaranteed payment by legislation are robbing them blind so their resources are now limited. They will have to have the testing done on their well water so they can have the evidence of the pollution to their personal well and then they will have to find an attorney to sue the farmer.

As I understand it, the EPA supersedes state environmental protections.

 

[Boss]

If you need an appendectomy, you get an appendectomy, just like before obamacare.

OK, but who pays for it if you don't have insurance or the cash to do so? That's the question you guys never seem to have an answer for other than, don't get an appendectomy...which isn't an option because if you don't get one when you have appendicitis you die. And when you die, you're also incurring medical costs because you don't get thrown from where you dropped dead right to the grave.

What do you think happens when someone gets appendicitis? Have you had appendicitis? Have you known anyone who has had it?

No one has ever said "don't get an appendectomy!"

Here's what happens, Derp...

You go to the ER with appendicitis and no insurance or money.
Because of indigent care law (in all 50 states), you are diagnosed and sent to emergency surgery.
You get the appendectomy.
Afterwards, before your release, while you are recovering....
a nice financial resources person gathers information from you.
Where you live and work, your social security number, any assets you have...
In many cases arrangements are made to make payments on your bill.
Sometimes your case is referred to a charity organization who can help.
If you truly don't have a means to pay the bill... no assets or income...
your bill is simply written off by the hospital.
If you do have assets, you may have to liquidate them to pay your bill.
If you have income and refuse to make payments, they can garnish your wages.
If you have to file bankruptcy, that's the price you pay for not having insurance.

But in NO scenario are you ever denied emergency surgery and told to go and die!

Now... Ironically... In the Nanny State Socialized Medicine System YOU want....

The waiting period for an appendectomy may be several weeks.
If you live long enough, you'll get the surgery.
As soon as you wake up... still groggy from the anesthesia...
You're wheeled out of the hospital because they need the bed.
They give you some antibiotics and maybe you'll be okay?

 

[The Derp]

No one has ever said "don't get an appendectomy!"

Right, but the part of the equation you're not determining is what happens if you can't pay for it and have no insurance. This is the part of the equation Conservatives haven't given any thought to because they don't know what health insurance is, what insurance companies do, nor do they know how it relates to actual health care delivery.

You go to the ER with appendicitis and no insurance or money.
Because of indigent care law (in all 50 states), you are diagnosed and sent to emergency surgery.
You get the appendectomy.
Afterwards, before your release, while you are recovering....
a nice financial resources person gathers information from you.
Where you live and work, your social security number, any assets you have...
In many cases arrangements are made to make payments on your bill.

So let me first stop you there because there are a few things you're not taking into account. The first of course is that the price you end up paying for health care, if you have no insurance, is what your insurer paid a % of (using an 80/20 scenario). You aren't getting a discount from the hospital if you plead financial hardship. What they do is they quote you (or bill you, if you prefer) a price that is above the set price in the chargemaster (which is also inflated to account for provider profits), knowing you are going to "bargain them down". So you bargain them down...to the price which you and your insurer would have paid anyway, together. Only now, if you have no insurance, instead of paying 20% of the price in the chargemaster, you pay 100%. So you might think you're being clever, and getting a discount, but you're not. You walk away with a bill "discounted" the price you and the insurance company would have paid anyway, only you're now paying 100% of that price, instead of just 20%.

So after you give the information (assets? Not sure about that) and they give you a discount and you still cannot pay, what happens then? Well, pre-ACA folks in that boat filed for bankruptcy (60% of all bankruptcies pre-ACA were because of medical bills, and of those folks, 75% of them had insurance), which meant the provider loses out on what you owe. Multiply that by the thousands of people who can't pay those bills and what happens then? Simple...the provider jacks its fees in the chargemaster, which forces insurers to reimburse more, which forces your premiums to rise. All to maintain profit margins, not your health.

So you seem to think charity and good will can magically make up for the gap you cannot cover, and that's misguided. There isn't enough charity in the world to make up for those gaps. Last year, the totality of all charitable giving in the US -and that includes health charities that you seem to think exist, along with things like the NYC Ballet- didn't even meet Medicaid's budget. So from where is all this charity coming if it wasn't there before the ACA? We already allow massive generous tax deductions for charitable giving and it still isn't enough giving to meet the needs of Medicaid. So from where is all that money going to come?

If you have income and refuse to make payments, they can garnish your wages.
If you have to file bankruptcy, that's the price you pay for not having insurance.

So you're talking in circles here. Firstly, the hospital doesn't simply "write off" unpaid bills. Not by a longshot. Everything has to be paid for in health care. Secondly, you say that if you don't have insurance (because you can't afford it), and incur medical bills you cannot pay (because if you can't afford insurance, how are you to afford paying medical bills?), then bankruptcy is the price you pay for not having insurance that you couldn't afford in the first place. So you see how that argument is a fallacy? Taking your argument through to its natural conclusion; if you cannot afford health insurance, then don't get sick. Because if you don't get sick, then you don't incur medical bills you cannot pay. That isn't a solution to our insurance system, and just circles back to the inherent problem of coverage. So you haven't solved for anything. You've just deflected away any critical thinking required to understand this problem.

Ihe waiting period for an appendectomy may be several weeks.

No. You can't wait "several weeks" for an appendectomy. Appendicitis, if untreated within 72 hours, results in death. Again, single payer isn't socialized health care, it's socialized health insurance. It's how the health care is paid, and it's done after the health care is delivered, not before.

So why would your provider make you wait 6 weeks to get your appendix removed in a single payer system? How are you reaching that conclusion?

 

[rightwinger]

After the passing of Obamacare, some people lost policies that did not meet basic standards....but there were better policies available to join

With Trumpcare, people lose their insurance and Republicans have nothing to replace it with

Not true. Many people had much better policies but the insurance companies weren't going to be able to offer them to everyone at the same rates so they had to eliminate them.

There is no Trumpcare, nothing passed. We still have Obamacare. Last I checked, Tom Price is a Republican, he presented a great plan that was patient-centric and offered free market solutions. Several other Republicans have offered plans as well but none of them came up for a vote because the Establishment leaders of the GOP suddenly decided to betray their constituents and protect Obamacare. Mark my words, they are going to pay for the betrayal at the ballot box.

Obamacare was supposed to be a train wreck, a disaster, the worst thing imaginable

Republican attempts to develop a better solution in a couple of weeks locked up in a back room was laughable

 

[Boss]

No. You can't wait "several weeks" for an appendectomy. Appendicitis, if untreated within 72 hours, results in death.

Exactly! And the beauty of it is, your death is not statistically counted against the healthcare system because you never were a part of it. This is why our system is better and people flock here for healthcare.

So you're talking in circles here. Firstly, the hospital doesn't simply "write off" unpaid bills. Not by a longshot. Everything has to be paid for in health care.

They write off bad debt every day. Yes, it is paid for in the form of higher prices to those who can pay. So, of course they try to collect something from everyone. You may have to sell your house or car. You may need to file bankruptcy. You may qualify for assistance from a charity. Every case is different. Still, you are never turned away and told to go die.

Secondly, you say that if you don't have insurance (because you can't afford it), and incur medical bills you cannot pay (because if you can't afford insurance, how are you to afford paying medical bills?), then bankruptcy is the price you pay for not having insurance that you couldn't afford in the first place. So you see how that argument is a fallacy?

No, I see no fallacy. I see a system which allows you to gain something of value without paying or being sent to debtor's prison. It may ruin your credit rating for 7 years but, again, you're not turned away and told to go die.

We already allow massive generous tax deductions for charitable giving and it still isn't enough giving to meet the needs of Medicaid. So from where is all that money going to come?

Good question. So where does all the money come from with YOUR plan? Well, it comes from the taxpayer who sends it to the government, who takes a 40% cut for administration. The cost is high no matter what because healthcare is expensive. But in the market-based system, frivolous use is discouraged because you may have to sell your house or car to pay the bill... as opposed to YOUR system where everyone views it as "FREE" and doesn't give a shit about cost. And when the consumer doesn't care about cost, neither does the provider.

So you seem to think charity and good will can magically make up for the gap you cannot cover, and that's misguided.

I didn't ever say that... But what is misguided is thinking you can turn it all over to the government instead of the market and the cost is somehow reduced. That only happens in the Utopian dreams of a Socialist.

 

[Boss]

After the passing of Obamacare, some people lost policies that did not meet basic standards....but there were better policies available to join

With Trumpcare, people lose their insurance and Republicans have nothing to replace it with

Not true. Many people had much better policies but the insurance companies weren't going to be able to offer them to everyone at the same rates so they had to eliminate them.

There is no Trumpcare, nothing passed. We still have Obamacare. Last I checked, Tom Price is a Republican, he presented a great plan that was patient-centric and offered free market solutions. Several other Republicans have offered plans as well but none of them came up for a vote because the Establishment leaders of the GOP suddenly decided to betray their constituents and protect Obamacare. Mark my words, they are going to pay for the betrayal at the ballot box.

Obamacare was supposed to be a train wreck, a disaster, the worst thing imaginable

Republican attempts to develop a better solution in a couple of weeks locked up in a back room was laughable

It IS a train wreck and it IS disastrous. Republicans are pathetic. They should've stood with Ted Cruz and shut the government down to prevent this monstrosity from ever being implemented.