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Criminalizing Lust?

PoliticalChic

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1. The 17th and 18th century secular philosophers downplayed both the classical and the religious, but all agreed that virtues were important for the good life of individuals and for the well-being of both society and state. This influences the relationship between the character of the people, and the health of the polity. We no longer think of virtue as the classical virtues of wisdom, justice, temperance, and courage, or the Christian ones of faith, hope and charity, or even the Victorian ones of work, thrift, cleanliness, responsibility, self-discipline, perseverance, honesty and self-reliance. Generally, what comes to mind is the sexual connotations of chastity and marital fidelity.
Himmelfarb, ““The De-Moralization of Society”


2. If a child does not learn through observation, through family, school and church, behavior may be considered arbitrary, and he may endeavor to create rules of his own, based on reason. This secondary process can only be a self-excusatory rationalization for his desires: copulate freely, do not take on responsibility through marriage, do not respect or trust authority, demand governmental support, base political choices upon feelings rather than experience, don’t bother to learn a trade, and so on.
David Mamet, ‘The Secret Knowledge”




3. Every social practice is the expression of fundamental assumptions about what it means to be human. When a society accepts, endorses, and approves any practice, it implicitly commits itself to the accompanying worldview- even more so if the practice is enshrined in law, which tells us what society considers morally acceptable. One should be very careful of acceptance of worldviews that endorse a low view of human life. The secular view that separates humanity into segments, rather than integrates, does that.
Pearsy, “Saving Leonardo.”






4. “PARIS — More than a year after resigning in disgrace as the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, Dominique Strauss-Kahn is seeking… to throw out criminal charges in an inquiry into ties to a prostitution ring in northern France with the legal argument that the authorities are unfairly trying to “criminalize lust.”… clandestine practice in certain powerful circles of French society: secret soirees with lawyers, judges, police officials, journalists and musicians that start with a fine meal and end with naked guests and public sex with multiple partners…. followed Ms. Legrain to the bathroom, grabbing her and demanding sex…. While Mr. Strauss-Kahn awaits the outcome of his legal cases, he is shaping a new role for himself after being disowned by his Socialist party.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/w...-lust-is-not-a-crime.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



5. It is very difficult for many people to acknowledge the low intellectual and moral level to which many professors and universities have fallen. On Feb. 21, the 600 Northwestern University students enrolled in the popular Human Sexuality course taught by professor John Michael Bailey were told that if they wished to stay after class -- it was clearly made optional -- they would see a live demonstration of female ejaculation, the subject of that day's class. A naked young woman (not a student) would demonstrate a "f---saw" and come to orgasm in front of the students. About 120 students stayed. …In Bailey's class and Mr. Cubbage's statement, we have reached the logical culmination of the '60s and '70s. Instead of studying Dead White European Males, students get to study a young white living female ejaculating with a f---saw…. For four years, the American college student is taught that human beings are animals…. the exhibition is no different than watching a female baboon having sex. http://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2011/03/08/the_$50,000_orgasm/page/2
 

BreezeWood

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Criminalizing Lust?


is (prostitution) a crime ?
 
OP
PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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Criminalizing Lust?


is (prostitution) a crime ?

While the premise of the OP is that secularism is based on a view of human beings as no different than animals, and should be expected to behave in the same vein.....

....you have put your finger on a major distinctions between human beings and the animal kingdom:

...paying for sex.
 

dilloduck

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We graduated from rape to business transactions ?
 

Katzndogz

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Every time a rapist is prosecuted, lust has been criminalized. The danger is in conjoining lust with rights. Does someone have a right to engage in lustful conduct? Not so far. Lust is no defense to physical attack, although we might be moving in that direction.
 

dilloduck

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Reproductive rights come pretty close to conjoining lust and rights.
 

waltky

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Granny says, "Dat's right - God'll get ya fer dat...
:eek:
Release of names in prostitution case stirs debate
Oct 17,`12 -- The first batch of men charged with being clients of a woman accused of turning her Zumba dance studio into a brothel included a former mayor and men from more than a dozen towns in Maine, as well as one each from Massachusetts and New Hampshire.
After initial confusion caused by the release of names without ages or addresses, a judge on Tuesday granted a request for additional information about the first 21 names out of what's believed to be more than 150 men accused of paying a fitness instructor for sex. The list included former South Portland Mayor James Soule, who didn't return calls to his home and business, and didn't answer his door. Others on the list included a lawyer and a real estate appraiser. The men ranged in age from 34 to 65. The town had been awaiting the release of the list since 29-year-old Alexis Wright was charged this month with engaging in prostitution in her dance studio and in an office across the street and secretly videotaping many of her encounters. Police said she kept meticulous records suggesting the sex acts generated $150,000 over 18 months.

Wright, from nearby Wells, has pleaded not guilty to 106 counts of prostitution and other charges. Her business partner also pleaded not guilty to 59 counts. The Kennebunk Police Department plans to release the remaining names of clients every other week as they're issued summonses on an activity log, meaning the disclosure of names could continue until the end of the year. The next batch is due to be released Oct. 26. The first wave of names initially created havoc for some innocent men because the lack of addresses and dates of birth made it impossible to verify exactly who was among the accused. The addresses, ages and other identifying information of the johns were withheld after a judge ruled that state law required them to be kept confidential because the alleged sexual encounters may have been videotaped, making the men potential victims of privacy invasion.

On Tuesday, Superior Court Justice Thomas Warren reversed course, ruling in favor of a request from The Portland Press Herald newspaper that sought the release of the addresses and other information. Press Herald attorney Sigmund Schutz argued Tuesday that releasing only partial information was unfair to people not on the list. "The fact is that by releasing names only, you're getting a lot of false positives. You're implicating people who may be completely innocent and simply share the same or similar names with people charged, and that's a real harm," Schutz told The Associated Press. One of those men was Paul Main of Alfred, whose quiet evening was shattered Monday by a phone ringing off the hook and a half-dozen TV crews showing up on his porch. Reporters wanted to know if the retired sheriff's deputy was one of the johns. It turns out Main's name is shared by at least 20 others in Maine, including one of the clients. He spent Monday night and Tuesday trying to clear his name.

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See also:

4.0 earthquake in southern Maine rattles northeast; no immediate reports of damage, injuries
Oct 17, 2012 - No injuries, damage from 4.0 quake centered in Maine
An earthquake that hit southern Maine Tuesday night rattled nearby New England states as far as Connecticut, including the Boston area, but caused no injuries or apparent damage. The U.S. Geological Survey at first estimated the 7:12 p.m. quake as a 4.6 magnitude, but later downgraded that to 4.0. The epicenter, about three miles (five kilometers) west of Hollis Center, Maine, is about three miles (five kilometers) deep. That location is about 20 miles (32 kilometers) west of Portland.

About 10 miles (16 kilometers) away in Waterboro, about 20 customers and staff at Waterboro House of Pizza ran outside when they heard a loud bang and the building shook. "It was the loudest bang you ever heard in your life. We actually thought it was an explosion of some type," said owner Jessica Hill. "The back door and door to the basement blew open." In nearby Saco, Sue Hadiaris said, "The whole house shook. It felt like a train was coming right through the house. It was very unnerving because you could feel the floor shaking. There was a queasy feeling."

Lynette Miller, a spokeswoman for the Maine Emergency Management Agency, said her dogs started barking several seconds before the quake. "It was several seconds of good shaking but nothing falling down," Miller said from her home in Readfield, about 60 miles (100 kilometers) north of Portland. The Seabrook Station nuclear plant, about 63 miles (101 kilometers) away in New Hampshire, declared an unusual event _ the lowest of four emergency classifications, but said it was not affected. The plant has been offline for refueling. "There has been no impact at all to the plant from the earthquake and our refueling maintenance activities have not been affected," said Alan Griffith, spokesman for Next EnergyEra Seabrook Station.

Jim Van Dongen, public information officer for the New Hampshire Department of Safety, said New Hampshire emergency dispatchers got about 1,000 calls in the first hour after the quake, but they later dropped off. He said no major damage was reported. Brief, but noticeable shaking was felt in downtown Boston and the surrounding area. In Melrose, just north of Boston, Peter Ward said the shaking he felt seemed to last about four seconds. "It felt like a big gust of wind shaking the house. I don't want to overstate it, but the glass did rattle a little," he said. Former Maine resident Victoria Brett, who also has lived in San Francisco, felt the quake in Northampton, Mass.

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PoliticalChic

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Reproductive rights come pretty close to conjoining lust and rights.

How about the fact that public high schools.....children 13-14 years old and up....are encouraged to pick up condoms......

What is the message in that imprimatur?
 
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PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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Every time a rapist is prosecuted, lust has been criminalized. The danger is in conjoining lust with rights. Does someone have a right to engage in lustful conduct? Not so far. Lust is no defense to physical attack, although we might be moving in that direction.


So....it seems that the OP is too...what?....abstruse?

I found the defense of 'criminalizing lust' as darkly humorous.
The college demonstration far less humorous.


I was hoping to spotlight attempts by secular proponents to prioritize the rights of individuals, via equal attempts to marginalize the expectations that said options would be mitigated by a sense of morality.



“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
 

Jimmy_Jam

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I get the gist of the OP. It does get confusing how different periods have viewed the teaching of sexuality to youngsters. I've always thought I was old fashioned because I believe that any form of transmitting the understanding of sexuality should rest with parents, and certainly not with schools. It turns out that different sections of society views that topic with remarkable variety, both currently and historically.

As a parent of three young children I find the prospect terrifying. Not terrifying because I have any problem with explaining the "birds and bees" to my young ones. I'm okay with that. My terror comes in realizing the access to very damaging views of sexuality that kids are exposed to today. It's something I have to deal with, but it's troubling. Children don't seem to be allowed to be naive for a little before they are thrust into all of this.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, just venting I suppose.
 

Katzndogz

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Reproductive rights come pretty close to conjoining lust and rights.

How about the fact that public high schools.....children 13-14 years old and up....are encouraged to pick up condoms......

What is the message in that imprimatur?

The message is, people can't be expected to control themselves and it is wrong to even ask such a thing.

What's wrong with this picture?

Police: Florida Couple Had Sex Atop Restaurant Table While Parents, Kids Watched | The Smoking Gun

A couple who decided to have sex atop an outdoor table at a Florida restaurant--in full view of families dining nearby--avoided criminal charges because witnesses declined Monday night to provide statements to police.

They obviously saw no need to control their behavior. They were no more wrong than a couple of dogs copulating on the lawn.
 
OP
PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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I get the gist of the OP. It does get confusing how different periods have viewed the teaching of sexuality to youngsters. I've always thought I was old fashioned because I believe that any form of transmitting the understanding of sexuality should rest with parents, and certainly not with schools. It turns out that different sections of society views that topic with remarkable variety, both currently and historically.

As a parent of three young children I find the prospect terrifying. Not terrifying because I have any problem with explaining the "birds and bees" to my young ones. I'm okay with that. My terror comes in realizing the access to very damaging views of sexuality that kids are exposed to today. It's something I have to deal with, but it's troubling. Children don't seem to be allowed to be naive for a little before they are thrust into all of this.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, just venting I suppose.

1. "...very damaging views of sexuality..."
As you can see from the OP, I couldn't agree more with your concerns.

We homeschool, and have a great advantage over folks who feel forced to turn their children over to government schools.


a. Woodrow Wilson summarized the 'us against them' view of Progressives:

"The purpose of a university should be to make a son as unlike his father as possible."
o “The University's Part in Political Life” (13 March 1909) in PWW (The Papers of Woodrow Wilson) 19:99.




2. "...just venting I suppose."

Don't give up, and, please, don't stop.




3. The following is from Charles Murray's latest book, "Coming Apart,"...

One change in societal attitude has been the “ecumenical niceness”…don’t fight, share toys, take turns….and never, ever be judgmental. As a result, the upper cultural class, which has stabilized by returning to more traditional ways, survives, yet these individuals will not criticize the behaviors which are destroying the lower cultural class.

a. “For Women Under 30, Most Births Occur Outside Marriage” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html

b. “One group still largely resists the trend: college graduates, who overwhelmingly marry before having children. That is turning family structure into a new class divide, …” Ibid.

c. The elites must preach what they practice.
 

emilynghiem

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Every time a rapist is prosecuted, lust has been criminalized. The danger is in conjoining lust with rights. Does someone have a right to engage in lustful conduct? Not so far. Lust is no defense to physical attack, although we might be moving in that direction.

Nix on this.

It has long been established that rape abused as a means of degrading and humiliating victims is not necessarily out of sexual lust. It is a weapon of violence, and dominating or destroying the victim. Even in cases of predatory addictions, where stalkers prey and cannot control their urges, that is demonic illness and not just sexual desire.

As for criminalization, once we can distinguish how much is coming from criminal sickness, then that can be treated as a dangerous disease. So letting such a disease go unchecked, untreated and unsupervised becomes criminal negligence or intent. Science, technology and medicine are not far away from developing ways to diagnose such sickness in the brain, so such cases can be distinguished, treated and possibly cured, instead of running mental illness together with character defect or criminal intent as a negative behavior to be punished out of fear we can never understand or correct these things safely.
 
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PoliticalChic

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Reproductive rights come pretty close to conjoining lust and rights.

How about the fact that public high schools.....children 13-14 years old and up....are encouraged to pick up condoms......

What is the message in that imprimatur?

The message is, people can't be expected to control themselves and it is wrong to even ask such a thing.

What's wrong with this picture?

Police: Florida Couple Had Sex Atop Restaurant Table While Parents, Kids Watched | The Smoking Gun

A couple who decided to have sex atop an outdoor table at a Florida restaurant--in full view of families dining nearby--avoided criminal charges because witnesses declined Monday night to provide statements to police.

They obviously saw no need to control their behavior. They were no more wrong than a couple of dogs copulating on the lawn.


I don't know about the couple you spotlight...but isn't there more to be expected from the 'best and the brightest'?


1. "Controvery (sic) over Harvard party with incest theme

2. ...organized by college students, Harvard University's "IncestFest"

3. ...residents of the undergraduate hall Kirkland House, and the goal is "hooking up with as many people as possible," College Fix reported Wednesday. So, attendees are randomly hooking up with people they must live in close quarters with for the rest of the year,...

4. ...watching underclad men gyrating in the dining hall and figuring out who you'll hook up with at IncestFest," it reads. "House life is incredibly close-knit, bordering on downright incestuous," it adds.

5. One Kirkland House resident penned an opinion piece for the Crimson saying the party name "is not sexy or cute or clever. It's dangerous"
Controvery over Harvard party with incest theme - New York Daily News
 

BreezeWood

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Criminalizing Lust?


is (prostitution) a crime ?

While the premise of the OP is that secularism is based on a view of human beings as no different than animals, and should be expected to behave in the same vein.....

....you have put your finger on a major distinctions between human beings and the animal kingdom:

...paying for sex.


is it a crime ?
 
OP
PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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Criminalizing Lust?


is (prostitution) a crime ?

While the premise of the OP is that secularism is based on a view of human beings as no different than animals, and should be expected to behave in the same vein.....

....you have put your finger on a major distinctions between human beings and the animal kingdom:

...paying for sex.


is it a crime ?



My comment was a paraphrase of an old joke.....


...what, exactly, is your point?
 

BreezeWood

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While the premise of the OP is that secularism is based on a view of human beings as no different than animals, and should be expected to behave in the same vein.....

....you have put your finger on a major distinctions between human beings and the animal kingdom:

...paying for sex.


is it a crime ?



My comment was a paraphrase of an old joke.....


...what, exactly, is your point?



maybe you could enlighten us the full context of the "Joke" as that must explain your reluctance to answer the question.
 
OP
PoliticalChic

PoliticalChic

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is it a crime ?



My comment was a paraphrase of an old joke.....


...what, exactly, is your point?



maybe you could enlighten us the full context of the "Joke" as that must explain your reluctance to answer the question.


"Us"?

The use is reserved for royalty, newspaper editors, and those with a tapeworm.

Hope you get better soon.



Why the fear of standing up by yourself?
Speak up?

...what, exactly, is your point?
 

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