Crappier politics!

[ErikViking]

Thelocal
Sweden's decision to grant an entry visa to a Hamas cabinet minister to attend a conference about exiled Palestinians was "completely in order", according to prime minister Göran Persson. But the move has been criticised by France and Israel, which says it helps to "legitimise terrorism".

Now Sweden has invited a couple of Hamas official for some meeting here. Much to the annoyance of Israel ofcourse. On top of the "we don't want to play with you" act earlier.

Personally I don't care, let them come here to talk if they want to, but it's not going to change anything in their realtions to Israel. The Hamas group needs to be substituted before diplomacy can even start.

And again the PM made a fool of himself by saing stuff like he wasn't informed or whatever. He just want to play the role of a diplomat who can middle in the conflict between Israel and Palistine.

 

[jillian]

Now Sweden has invited a couple of Hamas official for some meeting here. Much to the annoyance of Israel ofcourse. On top of the "we don't want to play with you" act earlier.

Personally I don't care, let them come here to talk if they want to, but it's not going to change anything in their realtions to Israel. The Hamas group needs to be substituted before diplomacy can even start.

And again the PM made a fool of himself by saing stuff like he wasn't informed or whatever. He just want to play the role of a diplomat who can middle in the conflict between Israel and Palistine.

I don't know if Hamas has to be substituted before diplomacy can start. I think if it showed a willingness to act as grown up leaders instead of as schoolyard bullies that it could move things forward. All it has to do is acknowledge that there are going to be two states and start working toward that.

oh yeah...and disavowing terrorism as a tactic would be nice.

 

[ErikViking]

I don't know if Hamas has to be substituted before diplomacy can start. I think if it showed a willingness to act as grown up leaders instead of as schoolyard bullies that it could move things forward. All it has to do is acknowledge that there are going to be two states and start working toward that.

oh yeah...and disavowing terrorism as a tactic would be nice.

Well, to tell you the truth I know little to litte to make these kind of statemens regrding Israel/Palistine, but isn't Hamas as leaders of Palistine kind of IRA running Ireland?
Have they no civil political representative?

 

[Diuretic]

I must have a twisted sense of humour because watching Hamas having to govern instead of shouting slogans or murdering innocent and defenceless people is cracking me up. Okay, I do have a twisted sense of humour. Hamas is finding it a bit tough I would think. Sad for the Palestinian people of course, but then they elected these clowns. Mind you having said that they didn't have much of a choice, with Fatah being corrupt to its very core I suppose to a Palestinian everyone except David ben Gurion would have looked better.

But - if the West doesn't help where will they go?

I have to admit that I'm befuddled by the whole Middle East thing so I don't pretend to know the fine points but I know a couple of things. Israel isn't going to go away - and nor should it. Israel has the right to exist. But I also know that there will be no peace until there is some accommodation. Yes Hamas has to drop its stated desire of removing Israel (part of the reality of being in government rather than the full-time terrorism game) and then things can move forward.

 

[jillian]

Well, to tell you the truth I know little to litte to make these kind of statemens regrding Israel/Palistine, but isn't Hamas as leaders of Palistine kind of IRA running Ireland?
Have they no civil political representative?

Well, difference between the IRA and Hamas is Hamas didn't want "independence" from Israel. It's always wanted the destruction of Israel. And yes, it used to be kind of the "fringe", but now they ARE the elected government, so ARE the civil political representative, as well. So it's all kind of a mess.

 

[ErikViking]

Well, difference between the IRA and Hamas is Hamas didn't want "independence" from Israel. It's always wanted the destruction of Israel. And yes, it used to be kind of the "fringe", but now they ARE the elected government, so ARE the civil political representative, as well. So it's all kind of a mess.

I still don't think Hamas and IRA are that different. They are responsible for killing of inocent people and therefore it's hard for the relatives of the victims to see either of them as a respected representative of a nation. But as you said, they are there now, thats our reallity - like it or not.

 

[Diuretic]

I hate to split hairs but the IRA are/were the "military wing" of another movement (Sinn Fein) which was the political wing. So perhaps that's a difference. The active service personnel were doing the blowing up and kneecapping but the politicals - Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness - weren't out there with the guns. I'm not sure how it works with Hamas, if those with the guns are now those with the political powers or if some had clean hands and others did the dirty work.

 

[jillian]

I must have a twisted sense of humour because watching Hamas having to govern instead of shouting slogans or murdering innocent and defenceless people is cracking me up. Okay, I do have a twisted sense of humour. Hamas is finding it a bit tough I would think. Sad for the Palestinian people of course, but then they elected these clowns. Mind you having said that they didn't have much of a choice, with Fatah being corrupt to its very core I suppose to a Palestinian everyone except David ben Gurion would have looked better.

But - if the West doesn't help where will they go?

I have to admit that I'm befuddled by the whole Middle East thing so I don't pretend to know the fine points but I know a couple of things. Israel isn't going to go away - and nor should it. Israel has the right to exist. But I also know that there will be no peace until there is some accommodation. Yes Hamas has to drop its stated desire of removing Israel (part of the reality of being in government rather than the full-time terrorism game) and then things can move forward.

Yup...

And yes, the Palestinians need the help of the West, but their leaders aren't doing what needs to be done to get that. Seems they're being hurt once again by bad leadership. It's a pity Abbas couldn't get Fatah in line. I think he could have done enormous good.

 

[HopeandGlory]

I hate to split hairs but the IRA are/were the "military wing" of another movement (Sinn Fein) which was the political wing. So perhaps that's a difference. The active service personnel were doing the blowing up and kneecapping but the politicals - Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness - weren't out there with the guns. I'm not sure how it works with Hamas, if those with the guns are now those with the political powers or if some had clean hands and others did the dirty work.

Sorry, Diuretic, but both Adams and especially McGuiness have active IRA backgrounds. That's why many people over here in the UK are so sickened by their involvment in Government.

It's regarded as a case of dealing with the devil in order to get a result.

Hamas isn't that different as an organisation. It punishes and murders its own people if they step out of line, just as the IRA did and still does.

Erik - what is Sweden thinking?

You know - it might be almost 70 years ago now, but the European countries who fought so desperately against Hitler still remember Sweden's acceptance of and abstinance from fighting that particular evil. Moderation is all very well, but there comes a time when one has to decide what's right and what's wrong.

 

[Diuretic]

I wasn't aware of that Hope - the portrayal here has been of Adams as being well apart from the active service aspect with McGuinness sort of lurking in the background, perhaps in the shadows a bit, but not quite with his finger on the trigger. In that case repugnance is understandable.

 

[ErikViking]

Erik - what is Sweden thinking?

You know - it might be almost 70 years ago now, but the European countries who fought so desperately against Hitler still remember Sweden's acceptance of and abstinance from fighting that particular evil. Moderation is all very well, but there comes a time when one has to decide what's right and what's wrong.

About IRA there wasn't that much of a debate, but few realized how minor (in terms of number of people) IRA actually was.

This is a fact that most Swedes are quite ashamed of. But you don't know the whole story. It is much worse than that. When war luck turned Sweden betrayed also the fugitives from the Baltic countries to Soviet. It is also a fact that the average soldier would have three bullets. We had no real defense. But many think our freedom came to a too high cost. Namley that we sacrificed our beliefs. (I don't think this is old history. This is a recent event and should be discussed more, - without the shame though).

So what is Sweden thinking? Well many politicians like the idea of being remebered for doing some great diplomatic achievement. (In my eyes). That sometimes clouds their judgement. But there is also a sound open debate going on. Actions taken both by America, Israel, Paistine and other countries are monitored and discussed.