CDZ Cop shootings....It may be a race problem, but it is a cop problem and we need to resolve it

[320 Years of History]

I am supportive of the Black Lives Matter movement, but I have also maintained that while the issue of police using undue force seems more dire to, for and with blacks, a material part of the problem is the type of people who are sworn onto police forces.

Video of police shooting that killed 6-year-old autistic La. boy released​

As a nation, we need to raise bar for what kinds of characters would be police officers need to have. Additionally, I think that in addition to law enforcement training, cops need to have psychology/sociology training so that they are better able to make equitable, accurate and well informed decisions about the people whom they encounter.

I think too cops need to be trained on how to control/ignore their understandably negative bias toward potential offenders. I think that because it's all but certain that cops, given the nature of their job, are inclined to think "the worst" more so than giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Cops are, however, hired to enforce laws, not pass judgement on folks suspected of breaking them, which is the role of judges and juries. Cops need to learn how to maintain objectively and neutrality in carrying out their duties and in interacting with citizens.

• Building Trust Between the Police and the Citizens They Serve
  
• Life as a Cop The Impacts of Policing on Police Officers: Is Policing a Lifestyle Choice?
  
• POLICE CYNICISM: POLICE SURVIVAL TOOL?
  
• SHEDDING LIGHT ON POLICE CULTURE: AN EXAMINATION OF OFFICERS’ OCCUPATIONAL ATTITUDES
  
• POLICE ATTITUDES: THE IMPACT OF EXPERIENCE AFTER TRAINING
  
• Police Attitudes Toward Abuse of Authority: Findings From a National Study
  
• Police Officers' Decision Making and Discretion: Forming Suspicion and Making a Stop
  
• Police Culture and the Learning Organisation: A Relationship?

As with most issues, both "sides" of this debate should be cleaning their own house before pointing the finger at each other.

Your ideas (and others I've seen) to improve law enforcement's perceptions and approach are perfectly reasonable. At the same time, we also know that in many of these cases the suspect had been resisting arrest to some degree, and that problem must be addressed from within the "black community".

What we are lacking right now are "leaders" who are willing to motivate their "side" to look in the mirror and hold itself accountable, and what we have far too much of are people who don't appear to want this problem to be fixed - they're happy deflecting blame and pointing the finger.
.

I agree with the basic theme of your remarks.

I don't know that resisting arrest is a cultural thing as is implied by "problem must be addressed from within the "black community." I think resisting arrest is someting individuals choose to do all on their own. I'm not aware of any "black community-wide" movement that advocates individuals to resist arrest. Resisting arrest is not the same thing as, say, a boycott, such as the Montgomery, AL bus boycott which was a black community-wide thing.

Honestly, I'm not sure either.

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

What I see is a trend of people being needlessly killed by cops. I certainly don't think that resisting arrest is a capital offense that warrants cops assuming the role not only of cop, but also those of judge, jury and executioner. For example:

• Cops don't need to kill someone who's running from them.
• Cops don't need to shoot a person who's distant from them and holding a non-ranged weapon.
• Cops standing at a suspect's car door do not need to fatally shoot the guy when he announces his registration is in the glove box and that there's a gun there too.
• Cops don't need to kill a suspect and everyone who is proximate to the suspected offender. Indeed, cops should go out of their way to refrain from doing that.

Cops need to heed the distinction between "suspected" and "convicted." Their job is to identify and apprehend suspects, not identify, apprehend and kill suspects before their actual guilt can be determined.

I realize we need to have an orderly society; the "world" in which I dwell is very orderly, boringly so if one wants to be cynical about it. But our societal need for order cannot be take as being worth killing folks who are guilty of minor infractions. Apprehending a minor offense suspect -- and a lot of what we've been hearing about are instances of that sort, especially folks stopped for traffic violations -- is not a life or death matter.

As goes the race aspect of the problem, I'm sure there's some aspect of the problem that is race related, and I'm willing to accept that race be a material portion of the problem, but I don't necessarily think that race is the majority of the problem.

Take for example Ammon Bundy's standoff in Oregon.

Bundy's Militia​

I truly believe that had that been a black group that had broken into and taken over a federal facility in D.C., cops/special police would have stormed the place and "taken no prisoners." I mean really. The man threatened to shoot people, law enforcement officers in particular. Yet, here is Ammon Bundy shaking the hands of a cop and not having cufflinks slapped on him..



This is Ammon Bundy meeting with a sheriff on 6-January-2016. The occupation began on the 2nd of January.

Now I don't know about you, but my idea of a peaceful protest is something like the Montgomery boycott. The "Occupy" movement in Manhattan is another. Ditto the "Million Man March" and a swarms of other protests. Forcibly occupying a federal facility and breaking into the buildings there is not my idea of peaceful protest, yet the police there didn't react as they do to far less dangerous and far less impactful situations.

Now I think the cops who were responsible for resolving the "Oregon" matter did some things correctly. I don't think Bundy and his militiamen should have been shot and killed. But the restraint the cops used with Bundy seems not to be the type of restraint cops use toward black men who, from what I've seen on the news, are suspected of having committed far less egregious offenses than did Bundy (there isn't even any doubt about what Bundy and his band did), yet those black men are dead. I think that black men, all people really, deserve the same degree of restraint, circumspection, and introspection on the part of the cops that Ammon Bundy received.

 

[miketx]

I am supportive of the Black Lives Matter movement, but I have also maintained that while the issue of police using undue force seems more dire to, for and with blacks, a material part of the problem is the type of people who are sworn onto police forces.

Video of police shooting that killed 6-year-old autistic La. boy released​

As a nation, we need to raise bar for what kinds of characters would be police officers need to have. Additionally, I think that in addition to law enforcement training, cops need to have psychology/sociology training so that they are better able to make equitable, accurate and well informed decisions about the people whom they encounter.

I think too cops need to be trained on how to control/ignore their understandably negative bias toward potential offenders. I think that because it's all but certain that cops, given the nature of their job, are inclined to think "the worst" more so than giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Cops are, however, hired to enforce laws, not pass judgement on folks suspected of breaking them, which is the role of judges and juries. Cops need to learn how to maintain objectively and neutrality in carrying out their duties and in interacting with citizens.

• Building Trust Between the Police and the Citizens They Serve
  
• Life as a Cop The Impacts of Policing on Police Officers: Is Policing a Lifestyle Choice?
  
• POLICE CYNICISM: POLICE SURVIVAL TOOL?
  
• SHEDDING LIGHT ON POLICE CULTURE: AN EXAMINATION OF OFFICERS’ OCCUPATIONAL ATTITUDES
  
• POLICE ATTITUDES: THE IMPACT OF EXPERIENCE AFTER TRAINING
  
• Police Attitudes Toward Abuse of Authority: Findings From a National Study
  
• Police Officers' Decision Making and Discretion: Forming Suspicion and Making a Stop
  
• Police Culture and the Learning Organisation: A Relationship?

Seeing how you don't know what you speak of, you'd make a great politician. But if these stupid negroes would comply with police orders they wouldn't get shot. The ones who don't, and get shot, deserve it.

 

[Picaro]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

 

[GLASNOST]

Blue:
TY. To the extent you refer to me, don't get used to seeing it. I won't be participating here after November 9th, perhaps the 10th if it takes that long to get the election results.

A rather cryptic response. Shall I ask ..... or be patient and wait & see?

 

[320 Years of History]

Blue:
TY. To the extent you refer to me, don't get used to seeing it. I won't be participating here after November 9th, perhaps the 10th if it takes that long to get the election results.

A rather cryptic response. Shall I ask ..... or be patient and wait & see?

There's nothing to wait to see. I won't post here after 10-November-2016 at the latest.

 

[Mac1958]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.
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[WheelieAddict]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.
.
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You mean lessons could be learned from both sides on this issue and it isn't just one side or another? Sorry that isn't allowed on this forum.

 

[Mac1958]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.
.
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You mean lessons could be learned from both sides on this issue and it isn't just one side or another? Sorry that isn't allowed on this forum.

Agreed, sadly.
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[LoneLaugher]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.
.
.

You mean lessons could be learned from both sides on this issue and it isn't just one side or another? Sorry that isn't allowed on this forum.

No sane people question the assertion that people should follow the law and show appropriate respect for law enforcement. That "lesson" has been learned and is followed by the vast majority of people of all races. It is not a matter of any particular "culture" failing to learn this lesson.

Now....the "lessons" which need to be learned on the other side of this issue are currently being taught. Thanks to the fact that everyone has a camera at all times.....we have developed appropriate teaching materials.

 

[WheelieAddict]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.
.
.

You mean lessons could be learned from both sides on this issue and it isn't just one side or another? Sorry that isn't allowed on this forum.

No sane people question the assertion that people should follow the law and show appropriate respect for law enforcement. That "lesson" has been learned and is followed by the vast majority of people of all races. It is not a matter of any particular "culture" failing to learn this lesson.

Now....the "lessons" which need to be learned on the other side of this issue are currently being taught. Thanks to the fact that everyone has a camera at all times.....we have developed appropriate teaching materials.

I don't disagree. Thanks pops.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's you 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.
.
.

You mean lessons could be learned from both sides on this issue and it isn't just one side or another? Sorry that isn't allowed on this forum.

No sane people question the assertion that people should follow the law and show appropriate respect for law enforcement. That "lesson" has been learned and is followed by the vast majority of people of all races. It is not a matter of any particular "culture" failing to learn this lesson.

Now....the "lessons" which need to be learned on the other side of this issue are currently being taught. Thanks to the fact that everyone has a camera at all times.....we have developed appropriate teaching materials.

I don't disagree. Thanks pops.

Hmmmmm. Not sure if serious.....not sure if serious.

 

[Picaro]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's your 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

Innuendo serves the same purpose. The reason you see 'such a high percentage' is nothing one has to 'wonder' about, it's due to black males deliberately baiting police officers in much higher numbers, due to media incitement and BLM vermin working hard at provoking it in the black thug culture.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

I don't think that at all, I know it isn't even a significant problem at all on the police side, as the statistics clearly and definitively show, and it is most certainly 'all on the other side'. Again there is no need at all for innuendo here, unless one is just peddling a fake narrative for some agenda.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now..

So you don't need the attempt at 'seeing both sides' nonsense then, so why post it? Being objective doesn't involve treating 'both sides as if they are equally wrong', being objective means dealing with the facts, not being stupid.

 

[Picaro]

You mean lessons could be learned from both sides on this issue and it isn't just one side or another? Sorry that isn't allowed on this forum.

It's clearly not the case on this issue. this sort of fake 'objectivity' is a form of idiocy, not 'fairness' or 'logic'. What should be amazing is the massive amounts of restraint being shown by police across the country, not sniveling about a handful of Darwin Award Winning street garbage doing Stupid Human Tricks.

 

[Mac1958]

I just see a pretty clear trend - young black men being killed by cops after they resisted arrest - and it happens in such a high percentage of these events that I do wonder.
.

There is no 'trend', and there is no 'high percentage' of unjustified police shootings. This is a lie. There are no stats to back up those false claims along with context. The more the media hypes it up with lies, the more Darwin Award Contestants pop up trying to get their 10 minutes of fame and a big out of court civil settlement. That's your 'big giant trend', not any 'war on blacks by the police' gibberish.

You didn't see me use any '"war on blacks by the police" gibberish', did you? No.

Innuendo serves the same purpose. The reason you see 'such a high percentage' is nothing one has to 'wonder' about, it's due to black males deliberately baiting police officers in much higher numbers, due to media incitement and BLM vermin working hard at provoking it in the black thug culture.

You appear to be one of those who think there is no problem on the police side, and that it's all on the other side.

I don't think that at all, I know it isn't even a significant problem at all on the police side, as the statistics clearly and definitively show, and it is most certainly 'all on the other side'. Again there is no need at all for innuendo here, unless one is just peddling a fake narrative for some agenda.

And you also completely missed my point. The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now..

So you don't need the attempt at 'seeing both sides' nonsense then, so why post it? Being objective doesn't involve treating 'both sides as if they are equally wrong', being objective means dealing with the facts, not being stupid.

I don't care about "treating both sides as if they are equally wrong", since such a notion is simplistic and impossible to quantify. Not to mention irrelevant.

What I am saying is that both sides have issues that must be addressed, and if they are going to be honest, they need to admit it and set about addressing them.

Instead, all I see are denials, deflection and finger-pointing, and I'm seeing it here.
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[GLASNOST]

...... The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.

Am I the only one on the forum who has the idea that 'resisting arrest' is a capital offence in the US? In more civilized nations 'resisting arrest' and 'getting away' is taken with a sigh and, "Oh well, we'll get him next time."

 

[Mac1958]

...... The "trend" to which I refer is the fact that so many of the Black Americans shot were resisting arrest at the time. Had they not resisted arrest, it's likely they'd be alive right now.

Am I the only one on the forum who has the idea that 'resisting arrest' is a capital offence in the US? In more civilized nations 'resisting arrest' and 'getting away' is taken with a sigh and, "Oh well, we'll get him next time."

There's too much grey area for that. I'd just like to know why the fact that many of these were clearly resisting arrest is so rarely addressed, especially on that "side". It may just be the standard politically-motivated dishonesty, but I do have to wonder if it's an acceptable behavior within the culture.
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[WheelieAddict]

If you don't think it is a cop problem, and only disrespectful citizens here you go:

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House

Things like this happen way more often than they should, and not enough is done to prevent it from happening again or punish the law organization involved.

 

[OldLady]

"You" who? Do you mean me? Do you mean someone other than me? I'm not sure of whom you're referring.

I didn't really give it too much thought. I suppose that I ought have said "one".

Furthermore, on USMB, I've observed countless instances of folks focusing on what someone does not say more so than on what the writer did say.

I often try to explain by asking what it means to say, "I don't believe in God" and too often people don't understand the difference between "not believing" and "disbelieving" ..... even after a lengthy discussion on the subject they still don't get it.

I agree that binary modes of thought are pervasive in the U.S. and ineptly applied to all sorts of things, including the example situation you described. Reading around on this forum, one sees daily illustrations of folks interpreting remarks as though they are "either or" expressions of thought, yet quite often a simple duality is unsupported by the remark.

I'm sure folks think they are making logical inferences and extrapolations of the ideas expressed, but that's not how one rationally develops inferences. To do that one must take what is said and carry it forward, not take what is said and "flip" it to what was not said or to what is one of its contrary ideas.

I wish I knew why folks do that, but I don't. Were I to speculate on why, I'd say they see themselves as following George W. Bush's example from his 9/11 speech when he said one is with the U.S. or against it and that there's no in-between. I suspect that basic theme is what drives the mentality of most "average" Americans and certainly police officers, who unfortunately are not, IMO and generally, "above average" logicians.

It's a great pleasure to read someone with a deeper understanding than simply "with you" or "against you". I'm getting tired of reading 'Leftist!' 'Liberal!' 'Conservative!' 'Typical Democrat!' 'Typical Republican!' "Hater!'

So, it is my fundamental belief that the problem with American police is this fixation with RESPECT. They think their uniform demands respect ... and it is a VERY PERSONAL thing with them .... it has nothing to do with their duties. It is taught early on that a child should respect his parents, but the idea that parents ought to deserve respect by example (rather than by fear of a spanking) seems to have gone amiss. The police are taking that misconception with them to work.

Cops could not do their job if their authority was not respected. You can chalk it up to fear, to blind obedience to authority, or to genuine respect, but without the ability to get people to do as they are told, all semblance of order and safety would be lost. No one in a position of authority likes to dwell on this, but authority/respect is a two way street, and when the "underlings" stop playing the game, you're toast. This applies to dictators as well as Little League coaches and high school English teachers. It engenders the most primal, immediate PANIC. So you're right, it is a very personal thing, but also a primary requirement of the job.

 

[GLASNOST]

Am I the only one on the forum who has the idea that 'resisting arrest' is a capital offence in the US? In more civilized nations 'resisting arrest' and 'getting away' is taken with a sigh and, "Oh well, we'll get him next time."

There's too much grey area for that. I'd just like to know why the fact that many of these were clearly resisting arrest is so rarely addressed, especially on that "side". It may just be the standard politically-motivated dishonesty, but I do have to wonder if it's an acceptable behavior within the culture.

I may not understand your point in detail but I do understand the dilemma in general. My point is that fugitives of serious crimes must certainly be apprehended, even at great costs. But it looks like the police are judging all citizens as "potential" murderers. They are shooting people dead because of running away from an alleged loitering offense, trespassing, J-Walking, shop-lifting, etc. The police take the theory, "He must have done something wrong earlier or he wouldn't run!" But the suspect might just be running because it's not the first time he loitered, trespassed, J-Walked, or shop-lifted. Big deal! So there is no other way to say it than they are being shot for simply 'resisting arrest'. Every cop is a pistolero it seems. What kind of law/justice is that?

 

[Mac1958]

Am I the only one on the forum who has the idea that 'resisting arrest' is a capital offence in the US? In more civilized nations 'resisting arrest' and 'getting away' is taken with a sigh and, "Oh well, we'll get him next time."

There's too much grey area for that. I'd just like to know why the fact that many of these were clearly resisting arrest is so rarely addressed, especially on that "side". It may just be the standard politically-motivated dishonesty, but I do have to wonder if it's an acceptable behavior within the culture.

I may not understand your point in detail but I do understand the dilemma in general. My point is that fugitives of serious crimes must certainly be apprehended, even at great costs. But it looks like the police are judging all citizens as "potential" murderers. They are shooting people dead because of running away from an alleged loitering offense, trespassing, J-Walking, shop-lifting, etc. The police take the theory, "He must have done something wrong earlier or he wouldn't run!" But the suspect might just be running because it's not the first time he loitered, trespassed, J-Walked, or shop-lifted. Big deal! So there is no other way to say it than they are being shot for simply 'resisting arrest'. Every cop is a pistolero it seems. What kind of law/justice is that?

Yes, agreed, there is too much of that and it absolutely must be addressed. And it is.

At the same time, the "running away" part must be addressed as well.
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