Constitutional Scholar With Impeccable Credentials Explains What A True Natural Born Citizen Is

[BillyRawle]

False.

True

 

[Steve_McGarrett]

False.

True

False!

 

[BillyRawle]

False!

True!!

 

[Syriusly]

How did that work out? How much Arizona tax payers money was spent on that junket?

The taxpayers in Maricopa County that requested this investigation want to get to the bottom of this fraudulent president and expose him, his shady past and the others who helped him usurp the Oval Office.

Taxpayers have asked Arpaio to stop wasting their money

Taxpayers ask Maricopa Co. Board to stop birther investigation - CBS 5 - KPHO

Maricopa County taxpayers went before the Board of Supervisors Wednesday, asking them to stop Sheriff Joe Arpaio's birther investigation.

Two weeks ago, Arpaio sent members of his posse to Hawaii to investigate the legitimacy of President Obama's birth certificate.

CBS 5 News learned that the investigators sent by Arpaio spent more than $40,000. Arpaio said the money was donated by members of his "Cold Case Posse." The posse is made up of retired lawyers and law enforcement.

Taxpayers told the board that Arpaio needs to stop misusing thousands of tax payer dollars to pursue his birther investigation.



Read more: Taxpayers ask Maricopa Co. Board to stop birther investigation - CBS 5 - KPHO

Irrelevant since Arpaio initiated a 2nd criminal investigation seperate from the posses investigation with two newly appointed full time detectives. Arpaio is a patriot. It is why he has been elected for a 6th term.

So tax payers are paying for two full time detectives investigating this issue of urgency for Maricopa County?

Has Maricopa eliminated the backlog of child sex case charges yet?

Late 2005 to October 2007 was not a good time to be raped or molested in El Mirage.

During that time, the town had signed a contract to pay the Click|keyword[Maricopa+County+Sheriff's+Office]" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Maricopa County Sheriff's Office $3.6 million for police services. But Click|keyword[Joe+Arpaio]" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Sheriff Joe Arpaio didn't use the money to bolster his sex-crimes unit. Instead, the publicity-hungry sheriff's focus, as always, was on political witch hunts and pet projects that got his name in lights.

Victims of sex crimes — mostly children — in the town and throughout the county still are paying for Arpaio's misguided policies. Rapists and child molesters got away with their crimes.

Irrelevant.

Well actually everything Mike Zullo is doing is irrelevant.

If I lived in Maricopa County, I would wonder why the Sheriff's Department is possibly assigning two full time law enforcement officers for birther idiocy and junkets to Hawaii rather than solving sex crimes......but I don't live in Maricopa County- if voters would prefer to keep electing a clown and sending deputies to Hawaii......that is the voters choice.

 

[Syriusly]

You all have to understand, de Vattel's Law of Nations was THE primary reference and defining book used by the framers of the U. S. Constitution. I"

Thats what Birthers keep saying.

Which is both false, and what they claim Vattel's law of nation's says is false.

Birthers- all they have are lies, speculation and innuendo.

And in Stevie boys case- racism.

 

[Steve_McGarrett]

The taxpayers in Maricopa County that requested this investigation want to get to the bottom of this fraudulent president and expose him, his shady past and the others who helped him usurp the Oval Office.

Taxpayers have asked Arpaio to stop wasting their money

Taxpayers ask Maricopa Co. Board to stop birther investigation - CBS 5 - KPHO

Maricopa County taxpayers went before the Board of Supervisors Wednesday, asking them to stop Sheriff Joe Arpaio's birther investigation.

Two weeks ago, Arpaio sent members of his posse to Hawaii to investigate the legitimacy of President Obama's birth certificate.

CBS 5 News learned that the investigators sent by Arpaio spent more than $40,000. Arpaio said the money was donated by members of his "Cold Case Posse." The posse is made up of retired lawyers and law enforcement.

Taxpayers told the board that Arpaio needs to stop misusing thousands of tax payer dollars to pursue his birther investigation.



Read more: Taxpayers ask Maricopa Co. Board to stop birther investigation - CBS 5 - KPHO

Irrelevant since Arpaio initiated a 2nd criminal investigation seperate from the posses investigation with two newly appointed full time detectives. Arpaio is a patriot. It is why he has been elected for a 6th term.

So tax payers are paying for two full time detectives investigating this issue of urgency for Maricopa County?

Has Maricopa eliminated the backlog of child sex case charges yet?

Late 2005 to October 2007 was not a good time to be raped or molested in El Mirage.

During that time, the town had signed a contract to pay the Click|keyword[Maricopa+County+Sheriff's+Office]" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Maricopa County Sheriff's Office $3.6 million for police services. But Click|keyword[Joe+Arpaio]" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Sheriff Joe Arpaio didn't use the money to bolster his sex-crimes unit. Instead, the publicity-hungry sheriff's focus, as always, was on political witch hunts and pet projects that got his name in lights.

Victims of sex crimes — mostly children — in the town and throughout the county still are paying for Arpaio's misguided policies. Rapists and child molesters got away with their crimes.

Irrelevant.

Well actually everything Mike Zullo is doing is irrelevant.

If I lived in Maricopa County, I would wonder why the Sheriff's Department is possibly assigning two full time law enforcement officers for birther idiocy and junkets to Hawaii rather than solving sex crimes......but I don't live in Maricopa County- if voters would prefer to keep electing a clown and sending deputies to Hawaii......that is the voters choice.

Sex crimes are irrelevant compared to the subverting of Article 2 Section 1 by this fabricated fraud in the white house. The taxpayers were right to elect Arpaio 6 times.

 

[Steve_McGarrett]

You all have to understand, de Vattel's Law of Nations was THE primary reference and defining book used by the framers of the U. S. Constitution. I"

Thats what Birthers keep saying.

Which is both false, and what they claim Vattel's law of nation's says is false.

Birthers- all they have are lies, speculation and innuendo.

And in Stevie boys case- racism.

Ah the old liberal fall back number......the race card!

Lol.

 

[Syriusly]

You all have to understand, de Vattel's Law of Nations was THE primary reference and defining book used by the framers of the U. S. Constitution. I"

Thats what Birthers keep saying.

Which is both false, and what they claim Vattel's law of nation's says is false.

Birthers- all they have are lies, speculation and innuendo.

And in Stevie boys case- racism.

Ah the old liberal fall back number......the race card!

Lol.

Not all Birthers are racists.....but you Stevie- are a racist- and you are a Birther- and it is hardly any coincidence that as our resident Openly Racist, you are aghast at the idea that a black man could President- and are willing to lie in order to get him removed from office.

 

[Syriusly]

Taxpayers have asked Arpaio to stop wasting their money

Taxpayers ask Maricopa Co. Board to stop birther investigation - CBS 5 - KPHO

Maricopa County taxpayers went before the Board of Supervisors Wednesday, asking them to stop Sheriff Joe Arpaio's birther investigation.

Two weeks ago, Arpaio sent members of his posse to Hawaii to investigate the legitimacy of President Obama's birth certificate.

CBS 5 News learned that the investigators sent by Arpaio spent more than $40,000. Arpaio said the money was donated by members of his "Cold Case Posse." The posse is made up of retired lawyers and law enforcement.

Taxpayers told the board that Arpaio needs to stop misusing thousands of tax payer dollars to pursue his birther investigation.



Read more: Taxpayers ask Maricopa Co. Board to stop birther investigation - CBS 5 - KPHO

Irrelevant since Arpaio initiated a 2nd criminal investigation seperate from the posses investigation with two newly appointed full time detectives. Arpaio is a patriot. It is why he has been elected for a 6th term.

So tax payers are paying for two full time detectives investigating this issue of urgency for Maricopa County?

Has Maricopa eliminated the backlog of child sex case charges yet?

Late 2005 to October 2007 was not a good time to be raped or molested in El Mirage.

During that time, the town had signed a contract to pay the Click|keyword[Maricopa+County+Sheriff's+Office]" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Maricopa County Sheriff's Office $3.6 million for police services. But Click|keyword[Joe+Arpaio]" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Sheriff Joe Arpaio didn't use the money to bolster his sex-crimes unit. Instead, the publicity-hungry sheriff's focus, as always, was on political witch hunts and pet projects that got his name in lights.

Victims of sex crimes — mostly children — in the town and throughout the county still are paying for Arpaio's misguided policies. Rapists and child molesters got away with their crimes.

Irrelevant.

Well actually everything Mike Zullo is doing is irrelevant.

If I lived in Maricopa County, I would wonder why the Sheriff's Department is possibly assigning two full time law enforcement officers for birther idiocy and junkets to Hawaii rather than solving sex crimes......but I don't live in Maricopa County- if voters would prefer to keep electing a clown and sending deputies to Hawaii......that is the voters choice.

Sex crimes are irrelevant compared to the subverting of Article 2 Section 1 by this fabricated fraud in the white house. The taxpayers were right to elect Arpaio 6 times.

I am sure that the victims of sex crimes in Maricopa County take great comfort in your post......

 

[Dr. Conspiracy]

...This is why the posse hasnt asked for donations anymore in many months.The second criminal investigation is what has delayed revealing all of the new posses evidence they collected since the second press conference. Once the 2nd investigation wraps they will hold two seperate conferences announcing their findings.

Your claims to inside information from the Sheriff's office don't mean a lot coming from an anonymous source.

 

[whitehall]

What's the point? I didn't sit through the lecture. Does somebody want to explain what the you tube video was about? Is there a different definition of "natural born citizen" from a respected member of the elitist left?

 

[Dr. Conspiracy]

What's the point? I didn't sit through the lecture. Does somebody want to explain what the you tube video was about? Is there a different definition of "natural born citizen" from a respected member of the elitist left?

I don't follow the "elitist left," but I do know what judges and legal scholars say. They say that anyone who was born a citizen of the United States within the United States or its incorporated territories is unarguably a natural born citizen. Barack Obama and Chester A. Arthur are two examples of US Presidents born in the country whose fathers were not US citizens. Vice President Curtis was born in an incorporated territory.

Most legal scholars would extend that definition to include anyone who was a US citizen at birth (like John McCain who was born in an unincorporated US Territory). If you would like to read a long list of citations on the subject, you can go here.

 

[SteadyMercury]

If I lived in Maricopa County, I would wonder why the Sheriff's Department is possibly assigning two full time law enforcement officers for birther idiocy and junkets to Hawaii rather than solving sex crimes......but I don't live in Maricopa County- if voters would prefer to keep electing a clown and sending deputies to Hawaii......that is the voters choice.

I live in Maricopa County, and I too wonder why voters prefer to keep Sheriff Media Whore in office.

On the plus side, it is 70 + sunny every day now and they just started stocking all the Phx area lakes with trout.

 

[Syriusly]

What's the point? I didn't sit through the lecture. Does somebody want to explain what the you tube video was about? Is there a different definition of "natural born citizen" from a respected member of the elitist left?

We all learned who is a natural born citizen in school- at least those of us who went to school in the United States.

 

[Syriusly]

If I lived in Maricopa County, I would wonder why the Sheriff's Department is possibly assigning two full time law enforcement officers for birther idiocy and junkets to Hawaii rather than solving sex crimes......but I don't live in Maricopa County- if voters would prefer to keep electing a clown and sending deputies to Hawaii......that is the voters choice.

I live in Maricopa County, and I too wonder why voters prefer to keep Sheriff Media Whore in office.

On the plus side, it is 70 + sunny every day now and they just started stocking all the Phx area lakes with trout.

If you join a posse, maybe you too can get a free trip to Hawaii!

 

[Skylar]

Hey asshole. The Hawaii Dept of Health is the one who has tucked tail and hid behind AG Jill Nagamine when Investigator Zullo confronted them to get answers. They are the cowards. As Arpaio said........."Release the microfilm" of the original 53 yr old birth document. What is the Hawaii Dept of Health afraid of? If they allegedly released the private information to Linda Lingle that Obama/Soetoro was allegedly born at Kapiolani th3n what are they afraid of?

LOL.....still waiting for you to show us a report from the Maricopa Sheriff's Department saying that Barack Obama's birth certificate is a forgery.

Don't you think it is kind of odd though....that if a law enforcement agency had proof of a forgery.....that they haven't notified a DA...or the FBI...or even the Arizona Secretary of State?

They will be notified when the 2nd criminal investigation is completed which is not to far off. They're tying up some legal issues with Maricopa County Sheriffs Office attorneys according to a interview two weeks ago.

You've been saying the same thing for about a year now. Its always 'two weeks off'. The investigation has been going on for 3 years.

Where is the report from the Maricopa County Sheriff's office?

 

[Skylar]

Arpaio sent a official police officer with Zullo to Hawaii. Do your homework.

No police officer ever asked the State of Hawaii for access to its documents as part of a formal police investigation. Only Zullo did.....demanding that the State of Hawaii give his private non-profit corporation unrestricted access to Hawaii's vital documents. If this were part of an official Maricopa County Sheriff's investigation.....why didn't the Maricopa County Sheriff department ask?

The State of Hawaii clearly responds to official requests from state officials as Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett demonstrated when the asked the State of Hawaii to confirm the information on Obama's birth certificate. And the State of Hawaii did.

Yet Sheriff Joe won't ask Hawaii if the Birth Certificate is valid. Why?

Sheriff Joe won't make an official request from the Maricopa County Sheriff Department for ....anything. Why?

Sheriff Joe won't release an official report on the 'investigation', despite it having gone on for 3 years. Why?

And why aren't you asking these questions? If you were genuinely interested in the truth, wouldn't you be at least curious why Sheriff Joe is refusing to do any of these things....when they'd be the first thing any credible investigator would do?

 

[Skylar]

Mike Zullo has been fully trained by the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office under the powers granted to Sheriff Arpaio by the Arizona Constitution.

Zullo didn't ask that the documents be released to the Maricopa County Sherif's department. He demanded that they be released to Zullo's non-profit corporation. Because Zullo said so.

If this is an Maricopa County Investigation, why has Maricopa County Sheriff's Department never requested any document from the State of Hawaii?

Why has Maricopa County Sheriff's Department never asked the State of Hawaii if Obama's birth certificate is accurate? The Secretary of State of Arizona Ken Bennett did just that, and the State of Hawaii responded. Informing the Secretary of State of Arizona that Obama's birth certificate was accurate. So;

1) Why won't Maricopa County Sheriff's Department just ask Hawaii the same question and conclude their investigation in 15 minutes?
2) Why are they ignoring the official response to their OWN Secrtary of State on the exact same issue?

Who conducts investigations like this? Refusing to ask the issuing agency to verify a document? Ignoring official verification of the information on that document? Sending heads of non-profit corporations to other states to demand that documents be released....to the corporation? And never releasing an official report?

And it gets so much worse:

After two years of denying he personally profited from the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office investigation into the validity of President Barack Obama’s birth certificate, the head of the sheriff’s Cold Case Posse [Mike Zullo] admitted to CBS 5 Investigates that he accepted a large monetary gift from one of the sources in the investigation.

Birther posse chief I accepted 10 000 from source - CBS 5 - KPHO

So is Mike Zullo an employee of the Maricopa County Sheriff's Department? If so, a 'private gift' from a 'donor' for Zullo's personal use.....that's what we call a bribe, folks. Espeecially when that donor is a source is Zullo's own investigation. It gets so much worse:

"In 2012 a FedEx envelope arrives unexpectedly at my door, just out of nowhere. When I opened it there is a check for $10,000 made out to me personally from Bill," wrote Zullo. He was referring to Bill Wolf, who was a major researcher in the birther movement.

Wolf had supplied the Cold Case Posse with a dossier of information about alleged problems with the President's birth certificate. The dossier became a major source of information for Zullo's investigation.

In his email to CBS 5 Investigates, Zullo stated that the check was a personal gift from Wolf, and not intended to be used for Cold Case Posse expenses.

Read more: Birther posse chief I accepted 10 000 from source - CBS 5 - KPHO

So Zullo is getting paid thousands of dollars for *personal use* by Birthers. Not just any Birther, but his own sources. Um, what the fuck?! Does the term 'conflict of interest' mean anything to anyone? And this is the head of your 'investigation'? Zullo only publicly disclosed that he's on the payroll of Birthers because a local news team cornered him. For years, Zullo lied his ass off about personally profiting from the investigation, insisting he'd never received any money.

Until the story broke. Then he was forced to admit it.

If this were say, an investigation involving Chevron, and Chevron started sending $10,000 checks to the lead investigator for personal use....and the investigation just happened to show exactly what Chevron believed, anyone with an ounce of integrity would call bullshit.

This is what you get when you make a used car salesman your lead investigator.

Mike Zullo has been fully trained by the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office under the powers granted to Sheriff Arpaio by the Arizona Constitution. He is well qualified and has ALL the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office resouces at his disposal, including their attorneys.

Then why has Maricopa County Sheriff's department nor any of their lawyers ever asked Hawaii if Obama's birth certificate is accurate?

You know....like Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett did?

Also Arpaio opened up a second criminal investigation a year ago appointing two full time detectives from the department. This is why the posse hasnt asked for donations anymore in many months.The second criminal investigation is what has delayed revealing all of the new posses evidence they collected since the second press conference. Once the 2nd investigation wraps they will hold two seperate conferences announcing their findings.

Um, where's the first criminal investigation from the Maricopa County Sheriff's department? If Zullo is an employee of Maricopa County.....then he's in a shit load of trouble for taking bribes from his own sources. If he's not an employee of the Maricopa Country Sheriff's office....then its not a Maricopa Country Sheriff's investigation. But that of Zullo's non-profit.

Pick one. Neither is pretty.

 

[Skylar]

While Professor Titus believes that a natural born citizen requires two citizen parents, he also understands that the current Supreme Court precedent on what is a natural born citizen is the case of Wong Kim Ark 169 U.S. 649. Under that precedent President Obama, Governor Jindal and Senator Rubio are natural born citizens. The question of Senator Cruz's status would be open to debate.

Wong Kim Ark was never affirmed a Article 2 natural born Citizen.

Wong explicitly cites British common law as the lens through which the founders would have understood natural born citizenship. And natural born status follow place of birth, even if both parents were aliens. Your fallacious claims regarding Vattel's 'law of nations' being the origin of natural born citizenship definition was shown to be meaningless babble, as no edition of the "Law of Nations' ever used the word 'natural born citizen' until 10 years AFTER the constitution was already written.

Cause precedes effect. It doesn't follow it by a decade.

No court has ever backed your exclusive definition of natural born citizenship. Nor has any law. Meaning that your definition isn't a legal one. And is thus irrelevant to the eligibility of any president.

Totally false.

Totally true, friend. Here's a picture of the relevant page from Vattel's Law of nations 1760 English edition:

Notice the term 'natural born citizen' is no where to be found. Here's the 1787 English Edition published in America:

Notice the term 'natural born citizen' is no where to be found. It isnt' until the 1797 Edition that the term 'natural born citizen' ever appears in Vattel's Law of Nations:

The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to [218] all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

Vattel's Law of Nations (1797)
Chapter XIX Section 212

The Law of Nations Or Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns with Three Early Essays on the Origin and Nature of Natural Law and on Luxury LF ed. - Online Library of Liberty

10 years AFTER the constitution was already written. So how could Vattel's Law of Nations be the source of the founders understanding of the term 'Natural Born Citizen' when Vattel's Law of Nations didn't include any mention of 'natural born citizens' until 10 years AFTER the constitution was written?

And was a delorian or a blue police box involved?

Remember Steven, and this point is fundamental: You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[Skylar]

You all have to understand, de Vattel's Law of Nations was THE primary reference and defining book used by the framers of the U. S. Constitution. It is really not possible to overstate the influence of de Vattel's Law of Nations as the primary reference book in the drafting of the U. S. Constitution. Emmerich de Vattel's Law of Nations is almost beyond comparison in its value as a defining document regarding U. S. Constitution intent and interpretation. The Law of Nations, or the Principles of Natural Law, published in 1758, is the first, and ONLY, definitive work the Framers of the U. S. Constitution used for the inclusion of the "Natural Born Citizen" phrase. It nails what is meant by the "natural born citizen" phrase of Section 1, Article 2, of the U. S. Constitution.

It is amazing how perfectly, precisely, and explicitly what Emmerich de Vattel, wrote in paragraph 212, of book 1, chapter 19, of The Law of Nations entitled CITIZENS AND NATIONS, applies to the Obama FRAUD. Quite clearly and explicitly it defines why Obama, can NOT possibly be qualified to be the President of the United States. Obama MUST be disqualified from the office of President of the United States according to the U. S. Constitution Section 1 Article 2.

"The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society can not exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as a matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. THE COUNTRY OF THE FATHERS IS THEREFORE THAT OF THE CHILDREN."

Oh, and if you're going to copy a conspiracy website word for word, at least have the courtesy of citing them. This from the Obama File.

Many have said that de Vattel's Law of Nations was THE primary reference and defining book used by the framers of the U. S. Constitution. It is really not possible to overstate the influence of de Vattel's Law of Nations as the primary reference book in the drafting of the U. S. Constitution. Emmerich de Vattel's Law of Nations is almost beyond comparison in its value as a defining document regarding U. S. Constitution intent and interpretation. The Law of Nations, or the Principles of Natural Law, published in 1758, is the first, and ONLY, definitive work the Framers of the U. S. Constitution used for the inclusion of the "Natural Born Citizen" phrase. It nails what is meant by the "natural born citizen" phrase of Section 1, Article 2, of the U. S. Constitution.

It is amazing how perfectly, precisely, and explicitly what Emmerich de Vattel, wrote in paragraph 212, of book 1, chapter 19, of The Law of Nations entitled CITIZENS AND NATIONS, applies to the Obama FRAUD. Quite clearly and explicitly it defines why Obama, can NOT possibly be qualified to be the President of the United States. Obama MUST be disqualified from the office of President of the United States according to the U. S. Constitution Section 1 Article 2.

"The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society can not exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as a matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. THE COUNTRY OF THE FATHERS IS THEREFORE THAT OF THE CHILDREN."

Barack Obama -- Natural Born Citizen

As I said, Steve......you don't think. You don't question. You simply repeat, word for word, what you've been told to think. Which is why you never see it coming when your arguments completely collapse.