Conservatives and Libertarians - Sound Off

[Paulie]

As libertarian as I am, I agree with student loans on their own merit. They generate revenue, and in fact, PROFIT. They serve to offer people an education they otherwise may never have been able to afford, and they add skilled workers to the labor pool. They are not "hand-outs". They get paid back, PLUS interest. If anything were worth the government INVESTING money in, it's higher education.

Sound off. Who out of the conservatives here agrees with them, who disagrees, and WHY?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

 

[plt42]

Totally agree, Paulie. It would be the only federal grovernment involvement in education that I would sanction though.

(Then, of course, Milton Friedman is my hero!) LOL

 

[xsited1]

Librarians unite!

 

[Skull Pilot]

Librarians unite!

problem with libertarians is they are nonparticipants for the most part

 

[Ravi]

As libertarian as I am, I agree with student loans on their own merit. They generate revenue, and in fact, PROFIT. They serve to offer people an education they otherwise may never have been able to afford, and they add skilled workers to the labor pool. They are not "hand-outs". They get paid back, PLUS interest. If anything were worth the government INVESTING money in, it's higher education.

Sound off. Who out of the conservatives here agrees with them, who disagrees, and WHY?

You're just proving my point from the other thread. The majority of libertarians are only libertarian toward other people, but not toward themselves.

I can change your quote to justify how I feel about government backed mortgates:

I agree with government backed loans on their own merit. They generate revenue, and in fact, PROFIT. They serve to offer people a place to live that they otherwise may never have been able to afford, the provide workers with the ability to work simply by giving them the opportunity to enjoy a stable lifestyle. They are not government "hand-outs." They get paid back, plus interest. If anything were worth the government investing in, it is economic stability for its citizens.



It may surprise you to know that no group of people from any political persuasion thinks people should be given hand-outs. The vast majority of us believe that people in need are going to overall use the so-called handout as a stop gap measure. Just because there is a percentage that scams the system isn't a reason to destroy the system since it works, overall.

Just for fun, this may surprise you:

Students are a poor credit risk. So the federal government protects the interests of Sallie Mae and other private student loan companies. The feds pay interest rates on student loans that are at least 2.34 percent higher than the rates on commercial loans. And if a student defaults, the government pays off his debt. So Sallie Mae and other lenders reap extra-high interest payments at public expense -- and the taxpayers get stuck paying for the defaulters.

Washington Times - Student loan mayhem

And this:

Paul supported his children during their undergraduate and medical school years, preventing their participation in federal student loans because the program was taxpayer-subsidized.

Ron Paul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DiamondDave]

Personally... I am all for people getting loans to pay for their college..... but that is not the function of the government, to lend you the money for your personal want or need....

Now... if they are insured like FDIC... ensuring that the lender will pay out as planned... and that the agreement is lived up to... all well and fine... but the government is not there to pay off the lender if some lazy ass kid or adult decides just not to pay back his or her loan.... now if that means loans of higher risk have higher interest rates, so be it... if it means lending practices are more strict, and banks lend less, so be it.... As the Rolling Stones said "you can't always get what you want"... maybe you'll have to pay for community college with a night job while you go to school during the day, until you work yourself into a scholarship or save up enough to pay for the larger college

The government should also be out of lending you money for your house....

 

[Paulie]

Rav I am well aware of Paul's position on student loans. Surprise surprise, I don't agree with him on something!

The government will not pay for your entire education, either. I only got about 20% of what my tuition is per semester. The rest is coming out of my pocket.

I really wish you would clarify what you mean when you say my opinions only apply to myself and other libertarians. I don't care what your ideology is. If you want to go to college, I don't have a problem with the government underwriting the loan. If you default, I don't expect you to EVER be eligible for any government help again, though. I admittedly don't know the policy there, as I don't plan on defaulting. As far as I'm concerned, it's the ONLY time they should be offering money to anyone, and you should be given ONE CHANCE to make good on the debt. If you screw up, you're blacklisted. Sorry about your luck.

 

[xsited1]

As libertarian as I am, I agree with student loans on their own merit. They generate revenue, and in fact, PROFIT. They serve to offer people an education they otherwise may never have been able to afford, and they add skilled workers to the labor pool. They are not "hand-outs". They get paid back, PLUS interest. If anything were worth the government INVESTING money in, it's higher education.

Sound off. Who out of the conservatives here agrees with them, who disagrees, and WHY?

The government makes a profit off the people using their tax dollars... Hmmmmm. Maybe if we made the government even bigger, they could make even more money. If we make our government big enough, the national debt would be payed-off in no time.

I'm all for big government. Count me in!

 

[Paulie]

Personally... I am all for people getting loans to pay for their college..... but that is not the function of the government, to lend you the money for your personal want or need....

Now... if they are insured like FDIC... ensuring that the lender will pay out as planned... and that the agreement is lived up to... all well and fine... but the government is not there to pay off the lender if some lazy ass kid or adult decides just not to pay back his or her loan.... now if that means loans of higher risk have higher interest rates, so be it... if it means lending practices are more strict, and banks lend less, so be it.... As the Rolling Stones said "you can't always get what you want"... maybe you'll have to pay for community college with a night job while you go to school during the day, until you work yourself into a scholarship or save up enough to pay for the larger college

The government should also be out of lending you money for your house....

But the FDIC is government. So even there, the government is stepping in and backstopping it. You can't say you agree with FDIC, but not agree with the government involving itself in student lending. The FDIC guarantees that you can deposit money with a PRIVATE BANK, but will publicly cover that bank's ass if they fuck up. So when you bank, you're endorsing government intervention automatically.

 

[Paulie]

As libertarian as I am, I agree with student loans on their own merit. They generate revenue, and in fact, PROFIT. They serve to offer people an education they otherwise may never have been able to afford, and they add skilled workers to the labor pool. They are not "hand-outs". They get paid back, PLUS interest. If anything were worth the government INVESTING money in, it's higher education.

Sound off. Who out of the conservatives here agrees with them, who disagrees, and WHY?

The government makes a profit off the people using their tax dollars... Hmmmmm. Maybe if we made the government even bigger, they could make even more money. If we make our government big enough, the national debt would be payed-off in no time.

I'm all for big government. Count me in!

I agree with ONE SINGLE government policy of lending money, and I'm somehow for big government? Ravi, is that you?

 

[Ravi]

Rav I am well aware of Paul's position on student loans. Surprise surprise, I don't agree with him on something!

The government will not pay for your entire education, either. I only got about 20% of what my tuition is per semester. The rest is coming out of my pocket.

I really wish you would clarify what you mean when you say my opinions only apply to myself and other libertarians. I don't care what your ideology is. If you want to go to college, I don't have a problem with the government underwriting the loan. If you default, I don't expect you to EVER be eligible for any government help again, though. I admittedly don't know the policy there, as I don't plan on defaulting. As far as I'm concerned, it's the ONLY time they should be offering money to anyone, and you should be given ONE CHANCE to make good on the debt. If you screw up, you're blacklisted. Sorry about your luck.

Too funny. I actually more agree with what DD said above, and yet I still think government subsidized loans for shelter are okay. Food, shelter, and clothing are the basic needs of life. Education when and if we can afford subsidizing it...and as far as I can tell, we can.

For the record, I've never received a government backed loan...for home or school or anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I've just never needed it.

 

[Ravi]

Dave says: if it means lending practices are more strict, and banks lend less, so be it



Stricter lending practices would have prevented the current meltdown to a large extent.

But that's anti-Libertarian, Dave, is it not?

 

[DiamondDave]

Dave says: if it means lending practices are more strict, and banks lend less, so be it



Stricter lending practices would have prevented the current meltdown to a large extent.

But that's anti-Libertarian, Dave, is it not?

When did I ever claim to be a Libertarian?

 

[Paulie]

Too funny. I actually more agree with what DD said above, and yet I still think government subsidized loans for shelter are okay. Food, shelter, and clothing are the basic needs of life. Education when and if we can afford subsidizing it...and as far as I can tell, we can.

For the record, I've never received a government backed loan...for home or school or anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I've just never needed it.

"You give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. You teach a man to fish, and he'll have food for a lifetime."

You can give people food, shelter, and clothing, and potentially get NOTHING in return for it besides entitled, lazy, selfish pricks. If you help someone get an education, you potentially get a more productive member of society.

Loaning someone money to get a real education is an investment in the country's future. Loaning someone money for a house just gives them a house. Giving them money for food just gives them food. What does the government get out of those two things besides a needy citizen and a vote?

 

[DiamondDave]

Personally... I am all for people getting loans to pay for their college..... but that is not the function of the government, to lend you the money for your personal want or need....

Now... if they are insured like FDIC... ensuring that the lender will pay out as planned... and that the agreement is lived up to... all well and fine... but the government is not there to pay off the lender if some lazy ass kid or adult decides just not to pay back his or her loan.... now if that means loans of higher risk have higher interest rates, so be it... if it means lending practices are more strict, and banks lend less, so be it.... As the Rolling Stones said "you can't always get what you want"... maybe you'll have to pay for community college with a night job while you go to school during the day, until you work yourself into a scholarship or save up enough to pay for the larger college

The government should also be out of lending you money for your house....

But the FDIC is government. So even there, the government is stepping in and backstopping it. You can't say you agree with FDIC, but not agree with the government involving itself in student lending. The FDIC guarantees that you can deposit money with a PRIVATE BANK, but will publicly cover that bank's ass if they fuck up. So when you bank, you're endorsing government intervention automatically.

As if I did not know the FDIC was the government....

But so is temporary unemployment INSURANCE and other similar programs... and show me the last time the FDIC had to be actually used? Not that most banks are bad credit risk like Mr. or Ms. Pot Smoking Sanskrit Major... and you do know that the FDIC, like the Postal Service, is actually a self sustaining entity that does not have to eat up taxpayer funds? That the banks pay premiums to the FED for that "backstop"... they are basically paying for their own insurance policy against bank failure and it is just a government regulation channel

But as stated... government ensuring that both sides live up to the agreement of the loan? Great... That's enforcing law.... The government does not get to own you or your education when they get to pay off the individual's loan because he's too busy researching how a bong works and does not want to get a damn job to pay off the loan agreement.

 

[Ravi]

Too funny. I actually more agree with what DD said above, and yet I still think government subsidized loans for shelter are okay. Food, shelter, and clothing are the basic needs of life. Education when and if we can afford subsidizing it...and as far as I can tell, we can.

For the record, I've never received a government backed loan...for home or school or anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I've just never needed it.

"You give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. You teach a man to fish, and he'll have food for a lifetime."

You can give people food, shelter, and clothing, and potentially get NOTHING in return for it besides entitled, lazy, selfish pricks. If you help someone get an education, you potentially get a more productive member of society.

Loaning someone money to get a real education is an investment in the country's future. Loaning someone money for a house just gives them a house. Giving them money for food just gives them food. What does the government get out of those two things besides a needy citizen and a vote?

I already explained this above.

 

[DiamondDave]

Too funny. I actually more agree with what DD said above, and yet I still think government subsidized loans for shelter are okay. Food, shelter, and clothing are the basic needs of life. Education when and if we can afford subsidizing it...and as far as I can tell, we can.

For the record, I've never received a government backed loan...for home or school or anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I've just never needed it.

"You give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. You teach a man to fish, and he'll have food for a lifetime."

You can give people food, shelter, and clothing, and potentially get NOTHING in return for it besides entitled, lazy, selfish pricks. If you help someone get an education, you potentially get a more productive member of society.

Loaning someone money to get a real education is an investment in the country's future. Loaning someone money for a house just gives them a house. Giving them money for food just gives them food. What does the government get out of those two things besides a needy citizen and a vote?

And beat a man half to death with a fish and he probably won't want to ever eat another one

Paulie... education is a good thing.. that you are not going to get an argument about... same with stating that those who get higher education will generally become great productive society members..


But when you are an adult, it is only you who are responsible for what you accomplish, how you pay for what you want, etc....

 

[random3434]

I got a PELL GRANT when I was in college, it wasn't a lot of money, but it helped since I was putting myself through school. I like the idea of government loans for higher education, trust me, I'll be sending my daughter to college in 4 1/2 years and have no idea how I'm going to pay for it all.


I also see DD's point of view, how do you make sure these get paid back? Maybe there could be some kind of lean or something on the student (per taxes?) until they do.



Federal Pell Grant Program

 

[Paulie]

Too funny. I actually more agree with what DD said above, and yet I still think government subsidized loans for shelter are okay. Food, shelter, and clothing are the basic needs of life. Education when and if we can afford subsidizing it...and as far as I can tell, we can.

For the record, I've never received a government backed loan...for home or school or anything else. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I've just never needed it.

"You give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. You teach a man to fish, and he'll have food for a lifetime."

You can give people food, shelter, and clothing, and potentially get NOTHING in return for it besides entitled, lazy, selfish pricks. If you help someone get an education, you potentially get a more productive member of society.

Loaning someone money to get a real education is an investment in the country's future. Loaning someone money for a house just gives them a house. Giving them money for food just gives them food. What does the government get out of those two things besides a needy citizen and a vote?

And beat a man half to death with a fish and he probably won't want to ever eat another one

Paulie... education is a good thing.. that you are not going to get an argument about... same with stating that those who get higher education will generally become great productive society members..


But when you are an adult, it is only you who are responsible for what you accomplish, how you pay for what you want, etc....

Right. Until you get a private loan from a private bank, default, and that bank goes to Washington to still ultimately recoup its losses FROM YOU.

Sound familiar?

And the FDIC was used just last year extensively. Where have you been?