Confedrate history about race?

[JakeStarkey]

We all accepted the fact that blacks fought for the south, and pointed out it was insignificant. You then melted down with name calling and your latest reaction above clearly demonstrates the proof in the pudding: you are stupid.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'm still waiting for evidence of Lincoln wanting to do that very thing.

Well you were provided with a link.

Missed it...which post #?

"Before his election, Lincoln had promoted very high tariffs (federal taxes on foreign imports), using the receipts to build railroads, canals, roads, and other federal pork-barrel projects.

The tariffs protected Northern manufacturers from foreign competition, and were paid mostly by the non-manufacturing South, while most of the proposed boondoggles were to be built in the North. Thus the South was being forced to subsidize Northern corporate welfare."

Civil War books

A few quotes to shed some more light on the issue of tariffs:

"Those who elected Mr. Lincoln expect him . . . to secure to free labor its just right to the Territories of the United States; to protect . . . by wise revenue laws, the labor of our people; to secure the public lands to actual settlers . . . ; to develop the internal resources of the country by opening new means of communication between the Atlantic and Pacific." - Senator John Sherman

The bold indicates tariffs, of course.

"That while providing revenue for the support of the general government by duties upon imports, sound policy requires such an adjustment of these imposts as to encourage the development of the industrial interests of the whole country, and we commend that policy of national exchanges which secures to the workingmen liberal wages, to agriculture remunerating prices, to mechanics and manufacturers an adequate reward for their skill, labor and enterprise, and to the nation commercial prosperity and independence." - Republican Party National Platform of 1860

Republican Party National Platform, 1860

"Fellow citizens, as this is the first opportunity which I have had to address a Pennsylvania assemblage, it seems a fitting time to indulge in a few remarks upon the important question of a tariff---a subject of great magnitude, and one which is attended with many difficulties, owing to the great variety of interests which it involves. So long as direct taxation for the support of government is not resorted to, a tariff is necessary. The tariff is to the government what a meal is to the family; but, while this is admitted, it still becomes necessary to modify and change its operations according to new interests and new circumstances." - Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln's Speech at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, February 15, 1861 | House Divided

 

[JakeStarkey]

No question that tariffs were a signficant symptom of slavery as the root cause of the Civil War. Good work, KevinKennedy.

 

[bodecea]

The war was caused over arguments about tarifs and state rights. Slavery was an underlying issue.

I said blacks fought for the South, I was right and you just proved it. Thanks.

Issues of the American Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another post in Lonestar's quest to show that black participation in the Confederate army was not significant.

hey stupid, my main point was that blacks fought for the confederacy that is the only significance there is. The numbers which numbnuts presented were not significant. Damn are all retired military folk as dumb as you?

Another Lonestar post emphasising the insignificance of black participation in the Confederate Army.

 

[bodecea]

Well you were provided with a link.

Missed it...which post #?

"Before his election, Lincoln had promoted very high tariffs (federal taxes on foreign imports), using the receipts to build railroads, canals, roads, and other federal pork-barrel projects.

The tariffs protected Northern manufacturers from foreign competition, and were paid mostly by the non-manufacturing South, while most of the proposed boondoggles were to be built in the North. Thus the South was being forced to subsidize Northern corporate welfare."

Civil War books

Sounds like Henry Clay's American System Part Deux. Would Lincoln have had the votes in Congress to pull that off?

A few quotes to shed some more light on the issue of tariffs:

"Those who elected Mr. Lincoln expect him . . . to secure to free labor its just right to the Territories of the United States; to protect . . . by wise revenue laws, the labor of our people; to secure the public lands to actual settlers . . . ; to develop the internal resources of the country by opening new means of communication between the Atlantic and Pacific." - Senator John Sherman

Yep, the Republicans were Free Soilers....it's about preventing slave holders from bringing their slaves to the Western territories. No surprises there.

The bold indicates tariffs, of course.

"That while providing revenue for the support of the general government by duties upon imports, sound policy requires such an adjustment of these imposts as to encourage the development of the industrial interests of the whole country, and we commend that policy of national exchanges which secures to the workingmen liberal wages, to agriculture remunerating prices, to mechanics and manufacturers an adequate reward for their skill, labor and enterprise, and to the nation commercial prosperity and independence." - Republican Party National Platform of 1860

Bold is mine....seems reasonable unless you are not willing to change ANYTHING about your stiffled slave-dependent world.

Republican Party National Platform, 1860

"Fellow citizens, as this is the first opportunity which I have had to address a Pennsylvania assemblage, it seems a fitting time to indulge in a few remarks upon the important question of a tariff---a subject of great magnitude, and one which is attended with many difficulties, owing to the great variety of interests which it involves. So long as direct taxation for the support of government is not resorted to, a tariff is necessary. The tariff is to the government what a meal is to the family; but, while this is admitted, it still becomes necessary to modify and change its operations according to new interests and new circumstances." - Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln's Speech at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, February 15, 1861 | House Divided

Maybe he should have recommended an Income Tax instead....oops...that was UnConstitutional.

 

[Againsheila]

I know. What Lonestar doesn't get is whatever the blacks did for the South was incredibly insignificant, simply at the bottom of the well. The comparisons L_L ignores? 500,000 slaves fled to northern lines. 185,000 blacks served in the northern forces. 33,000 blacks died as regulars in the army and navy.

How Lonestar and the others try to wriggle and wiggle around these figures amaze me.

Hey stupid, I never said blacks role in the Confederacy was significant, I simply stated they had a role. Which has been adequately proven. It doesn't matter if two or two million blacks fought for the south, the fact remains that blacks fought for the south. Which was my original point. You're arguing a point that was never the main contention.

Another fact that is interesting is that there have been blacks that were members of the KKK. Yeah, look it up, I didn't believe it either until I googled it.

 

[Againsheila]

You and others implicated that somehow it was significant. I am glad you realize that it was not. I agree with you.

And you sir are a liar. I never stated nor implied that blacks in the Confederacy was a significant matter.

Actually I believe it is significant purely based on the fact that there were blacks that fought for the confederacy. Doesn't matter how many. That is more proof that the war was not about slavery or racism. Again 4 slave holding states remained with the north, their slaves were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. Betcha those slaves didn't consider Lincoln to be a saint.

 

[bodecea]

You and others implicated that somehow it was significant. I am glad you realize that it was not. I agree with you.

And you sir are a liar. I never stated nor implied that blacks in the Confederacy was a significant matter.

Actually I believe it is significant purely based on the fact that there were blacks that fought for the confederacy. Doesn't matter how many. That is more proof that the war was not about slavery or racism. Again 4 slave holding states remained with the north, their slaves were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. Betcha those slaves didn't consider Lincoln to be a saint.

I wasn't aware that any slave considered Lincoln a Saint. But he DID manage to help get the 13th amendment passed before he was shot down.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Missed it...which post #?

"Before his election, Lincoln had promoted very high tariffs (federal taxes on foreign imports), using the receipts to build railroads, canals, roads, and other federal pork-barrel projects.

The tariffs protected Northern manufacturers from foreign competition, and were paid mostly by the non-manufacturing South, while most of the proposed boondoggles were to be built in the North. Thus the South was being forced to subsidize Northern corporate welfare."

Civil War books

Sounds like Henry Clay's American System Part Deux. Would Lincoln have had the votes in Congress to pull that off?



Yep, the Republicans were Free Soilers....it's about preventing slave holders from bringing their slaves to the Western territories. No surprises there.

The bold indicates tariffs, of course.

"That while providing revenue for the support of the general government by duties upon imports, sound policy requires such an adjustment of these imposts as to encourage the development of the industrial interests of the whole country, and we commend that policy of national exchanges which secures to the workingmen liberal wages, to agriculture remunerating prices, to mechanics and manufacturers an adequate reward for their skill, labor and enterprise, and to the nation commercial prosperity and independence." - Republican Party National Platform of 1860

Bold is mine....seems reasonable unless you are not willing to change ANYTHING about your stiffled slave-dependent world.

Republican Party National Platform, 1860

"Fellow citizens, as this is the first opportunity which I have had to address a Pennsylvania assemblage, it seems a fitting time to indulge in a few remarks upon the important question of a tariff---a subject of great magnitude, and one which is attended with many difficulties, owing to the great variety of interests which it involves. So long as direct taxation for the support of government is not resorted to, a tariff is necessary. The tariff is to the government what a meal is to the family; but, while this is admitted, it still becomes necessary to modify and change its operations according to new interests and new circumstances." - Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln's Speech at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, February 15, 1861 | House Divided

Maybe he should have recommended an Income Tax instead....oops...that was UnConstitutional.

It was exactly Henry Clay's American System. Clay was Lincoln's political inspiration, and Lincoln once referred to himself as a "Henry Clay Whig." And he did have the votes to pull it off, see the Morrill Tariff.

Well I was more or less referring to the part of the quote about tariffs, but I'm aware that Lincoln and the Republicans opposed the expansion of slavery to the west.

Except it's not reasonable to steal from one portion of the country, the south, for the benefit of another, the north. Slavery was evil, but it doesn't justify theft especially considering a majority of the south did not own slaves.

Lincoln did implement an income tax during the Civil War, along with obscenely high tariffs.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

And you sir are a liar. I never stated nor implied that blacks in the Confederacy was a significant matter.

Actually I believe it is significant purely based on the fact that there were blacks that fought for the confederacy. Doesn't matter how many. That is more proof that the war was not about slavery or racism. Again 4 slave holding states remained with the north, their slaves were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. Betcha those slaves didn't consider Lincoln to be a saint.

I wasn't aware that any slave considered Lincoln a Saint. But he DID manage to help get the 13th amendment passed before he was shot down.

Actually Lincoln was assassinated before it was ratified.

 

[bodecea]

Actually I believe it is significant purely based on the fact that there were blacks that fought for the confederacy. Doesn't matter how many. That is more proof that the war was not about slavery or racism. Again 4 slave holding states remained with the north, their slaves were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. Betcha those slaves didn't consider Lincoln to be a saint.

I wasn't aware that any slave considered Lincoln a Saint. But he DID manage to help get the 13th amendment passed before he was shot down.

Actually Lincoln was assassinated before it was ratified.

Before the States ratified it...something that is a real shame.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You and others implicated that somehow it was significant. I am glad you realize that it was not. I agree with you.

And you sir are a liar. I never stated nor implied that blacks in the Confederacy was a significant matter.

Actually I believe it is significant purely based on the fact that there were blacks that fought for the confederacy. Doesn't matter how many. That is more proof that the war was not about slavery or racism. Again 4 slave holding states remained with the north, their slaves were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. Betcha those slaves didn't consider Lincoln to be a saint.

All of which in no way invalidates the central fact the Civil War was caused by slavery.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Before his election, Lincoln had promoted very high tariffs (federal taxes on foreign imports), using the receipts to build railroads, canals, roads, and other federal pork-barrel projects.

The tariffs protected Northern manufacturers from foreign competition, and were paid mostly by the non-manufacturing South, while most of the proposed boondoggles were to be built in the North. Thus the South was being forced to subsidize Northern corporate welfare."

Civil War books

Sounds like Henry Clay's American System Part Deux. Would Lincoln have had the votes in Congress to pull that off?



Yep, the Republicans were Free Soilers....it's about preventing slave holders from bringing their slaves to the Western territories. No surprises there.



Bold is mine....seems reasonable unless you are not willing to change ANYTHING about your stiffled slave-dependent world.

Republican Party National Platform, 1860

"Fellow citizens, as this is the first opportunity which I have had to address a Pennsylvania assemblage, it seems a fitting time to indulge in a few remarks upon the important question of a tariff---a subject of great magnitude, and one which is attended with many difficulties, owing to the great variety of interests which it involves. So long as direct taxation for the support of government is not resorted to, a tariff is necessary. The tariff is to the government what a meal is to the family; but, while this is admitted, it still becomes necessary to modify and change its operations according to new interests and new circumstances." - Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln's Speech at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, February 15, 1861 | House Divided

Maybe he should have recommended an Income Tax instead....oops...that was UnConstitutional.

It was exactly Henry Clay's American System. Clay was Lincoln's political inspiration, and Lincoln once referred to himself as a "Henry Clay Whig." And he did have the votes to pull it off, see the Morrill Tariff.

Well I was more or less referring to the part of the quote about tariffs, but I'm aware that Lincoln and the Republicans opposed the expansion of slavery to the west.

Except it's not reasonable to steal from one portion of the country, the south, for the benefit of another, the north. Slavery was evil, but it doesn't justify theft especially considering a majority of the south did not own slaves.

Lincoln did implement an income tax during the Civil War, along with obscenely high tariffs.

No stealing occurred, KK. Don't like it, work to change it. That is how a constitutional Republic works. Commit treason, then die.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Sounds like Henry Clay's American System Part Deux. Would Lincoln have had the votes in Congress to pull that off?



Yep, the Republicans were Free Soilers....it's about preventing slave holders from bringing their slaves to the Western territories. No surprises there.



Bold is mine....seems reasonable unless you are not willing to change ANYTHING about your stiffled slave-dependent world.



Maybe he should have recommended an Income Tax instead....oops...that was UnConstitutional.

It was exactly Henry Clay's American System. Clay was Lincoln's political inspiration, and Lincoln once referred to himself as a "Henry Clay Whig." And he did have the votes to pull it off, see the Morrill Tariff.

Well I was more or less referring to the part of the quote about tariffs, but I'm aware that Lincoln and the Republicans opposed the expansion of slavery to the west.

Except it's not reasonable to steal from one portion of the country, the south, for the benefit of another, the north. Slavery was evil, but it doesn't justify theft especially considering a majority of the south did not own slaves.

Lincoln did implement an income tax during the Civil War, along with obscenely high tariffs.

No stealing occurred, KK. Don't like it, work to change it. That is how a constitutional Republic works. Commit treason, then die.

Actually a constitutional republic does not work that way. A majority does not get to force the minority to do whatever it wants. What you're thinking of is a democracy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually a republic does work that way if the minority's inalienable rights had not been violated. No such violations occurred. The minority tried to unconstitionally, unethically, illegally, and immorally tried to force its way on the majority, then resorted to violence. The southern leaders were very, very lucky they were not put against the wall and shot in every secesh town in the South.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Actually a republic does work that way if the minority's inalienable rights had not been violated. No such violations occurred. The minority tried to unconstitionally, unethically, illegally, and immorally tried to force its way on the majority, then resorted to violence. The southern leaders were very, very lucky they were not put against the wall and shot in every secesh town in the South.

You don't think you have an inalienable right to the fruits of your labor, and not have those taken and used for the benefit of others?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ah, I see: you don't believe in reciprocity in the constitutional system. OK.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ah, I see: you don't believe in reciprocity in the constitutional system. OK.

No, I believe that everyone owns their own body, and the product of their labor. To take the fruits of somebody else's labor is nothing short of theft.

 

[Againsheila]

And you sir are a liar. I never stated nor implied that blacks in the Confederacy was a significant matter.

Actually I believe it is significant purely based on the fact that there were blacks that fought for the confederacy. Doesn't matter how many. That is more proof that the war was not about slavery or racism. Again 4 slave holding states remained with the north, their slaves were not freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. Betcha those slaves didn't consider Lincoln to be a saint.

All of which in no way invalidates the central fact the Civil War was caused by slavery.

Slavery was a part of it, but not the central cause. The central cause was states rights. Something which we lost when the union won the war, making the Declaration of Independence virtually worthless.

 

[JakeStarkey]

States' rights was merely a theme of the Civil War. Read Vice-president Stepehns "Cornerstone Speech" from March 1861, which clearly subordinates states rights to slavery.