Communication between God and man

[hobelim]

don't ya'll agree?

I'll not discuss what is sacred to me with what is profane to you.

One bread, one body
One Lord of all
One cup of blessing which we bless.
And we, though many
throughout the earth
we are one body in this one Lord.
Grain for the fields
scattered and grown
gathered to One for all.

If you will not be respectful in a discussion about this, then we can refer each other to verses about pearls before swine, and shaking dust from one's feet. Your choice. But I will ignore any post from you that is disrespectful on this matter.

Stop being so pusillanimous.

Understanding the subject of the substance of the body of Christ is a matter of life and death. Literally.

I say the Body of Christ, the flesh of Jesus given for the life of the world, consists of words that Jesus received from God like manna from heaven that form the body of his teaching.

You say it is a cracker.

I can understand your embarrassment.

 

[Mudda]

But if you don't believe that the stories in the bible are true, then what makes you all of a sudden believe the story about Moses, a burning bush and tablets that miraculously appear out of nowhere? That makes no sense.

Didn't say I don't believe the stories in the Bible are true. I said I read them with the author's theme in mind, and stay within the confines of the culture of that time. Exodus 20 says God delivered the Ten Commandments. I don't read that as that they appeared out of nowhere. Chapter 34 tells us Moses had to present the stone for the Lord to write upon, and while in the Lord's presence, Moses' face grew radiant, which frightened the Israelites so much he had to wear a veil over it. Interesting story.

Sounds made up. An invisible being wrote on Moses' rock after he talked to a burning bush. Could simply be an LSD trip or something similar.

 

[Meriweather]

Sounds made up. An invisible being wrote on Moses' rock after he talked to a burning bush. Could simply be an LSD trip or something similar.

Do you really believe all the Israelites would follow a leader strung out on drugs?

The burning bush could have been an interesting natural phenomenon. I've read others have reported similar sightings (without the appearance of God) of a bush appearing to burn without being consumed. I've forgotten the science behind this, something about sap-like secretions if I am remembering correctly.

I don't know about others, but when something appears supernatural, I look for a possible natural explanation. To date, I haven't found a natural explanation for the radiance emanating from a man's face. It appeared to spook people, though--enough so that Moses wore a veil.

Some things cannot be explained, not even with drugs. With some odd things that have occurred in my own life, I am in no position to pooh-pooh the odd things that happened to Moses.

The point of scripture, however, is not to get you or anyone to believe in six literal days of creation, or how the Ten Commandments got written in stone. It's about presenting how God is present among us, and that it is quite possible for people--anytime, anywhere--to experience God in their own lives. Watch for Him in the tiny whispering sounds.

 

[Mudda]

Sounds made up. An invisible being wrote on Moses' rock after he talked to a burning bush. Could simply be an LSD trip or something similar.

Do you really believe all the Israelites would follow a leader strung out on drugs?

The burning bush could have been an interesting natural phenomenon. I've read others have reported similar sightings (without the appearance of God) of a bush appearing to burn without being consumed. I've forgotten the science behind this, something about sap-like secretions if I am remembering correctly.

I don't know about others, but when something appears supernatural, I look for a possible natural explanation. To date, I haven't found a natural explanation for the radiance emanating from a man's face. It appeared to spook people, though--enough so that Moses wore a veil.

Some things cannot be explained, not even with drugs. With some odd things that have occurred in my own life, I am in no position to pooh-pooh the odd things that happened to Moses.

The point of scripture, however, is not to get you or anyone to believe in six literal days of creation, or how the Ten Commandments got written in stone. It's about presenting how God is present among us, and that it is quite possible for people--anytime, anywhere--to experience God in their own lives. Watch for Him in the tiny whispering sounds.

The problem here is, that you believe in the invisible stone cutter, but don't believe in the 6 days of creation. That's absurd. According to you, when "something appears supernatural, I look for a possible natural explanation. To date, I haven't found a natural explanation for" the 6 days of creation? So what IS your position? Being a flip-flopping cherry picker?

 

[Meriweather]

The problem here is, that you believe in the invisible stone cutter, but don't believe in the 6 days of creation. That's absurd. According to you, when "something appears supernatural, I look for a possible natural explanation. To date, I haven't found a natural explanation for" the 6 days of creation? So what IS your position? Being a flip-flopping cherry picker?

Haven't you been reading? You, a modern man, using a modern language, are interpreting the original language as meaning a literal six days. Ushher, back in the 1800s did the same thing. But long before either of you, men who spoke the original language noted that the original usage didn't encompass a literal six day interpretation. A literal six day interpretation is YOUR conclusion, not mine.

The other difference between us, is that I am open to all possibilities. I research each one and present the various possibilities. People can choose for themselves which one seems most likely to them. I'm comfortable in the realm of various possibilities (a grey world), because not being eye witnesses, we cannot know for certain.

You appear more comfortable in a black and white world, as your conclusions are more singular: A literal six day creation and a man on LSD.

 

[Mudda]

The problem here is, that you believe in the invisible stone cutter, but don't believe in the 6 days of creation. That's absurd. According to you, when "something appears supernatural, I look for a possible natural explanation. To date, I haven't found a natural explanation for" the 6 days of creation? So what IS your position? Being a flip-flopping cherry picker?

Haven't you been reading? You, a modern man, using a modern language, are interpreting the original language as meaning a literal six days. Ushher, back in the 1800s did the same thing. But long before either of you, men who spoke the original language noted that the original usage didn't encompass a literal six day interpretation. A literal six day interpretation is YOUR conclusion, not mine.

The other difference between us, is that I am open to all possibilities. I research each one and present the various possibilities. People can choose for themselves which one seems most likely to them. I'm comfortable in the realm of various possibilities (a grey world), because not being eye witnesses, we cannot know for certain.

You appear more comfortable in a black and white world, as your conclusions are more singular: A literal six day creation and a man on LSD.

You appear to cling to the stories that please you, and reject the ones that don't, when they are all on the same level, as far as being a supernatural/unprovable/cartoonish story goes. Why would the story of Moses be literal, but creation isn't? You have to intellectually base your decision on SOMETHING!!!

 

[Meriweather]

You appear to cling to the stories that please you, and reject the ones that don't, when they are all on the same level, as far as being a supernatural/unprovable/cartoonish story goes. Why would the story of Moses be literal, but creation isn't? You have to intellectually base your decision on SOMETHING!!!

I do. Case by case. Book by book. Author by author. Remember the etymology of the word "Bible" is also used for plural of books--and even library. Essentially, you are telling me that if I go down to the local library, I either have to (in order to be consistent) take everything in that library literally or none of it literally.

I examine each book of the Bible, each story in each book, and then search out all the possibilities from there. Your perspective seems to consistently be, "Find everything that cannot be verified by the scientific method." To my mind, kind of a funny way to read the Bible, but it is consistent.

(By the way, ALL the stories please me, with the exception I do get a little restless reading all the rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.)

 

[Mudda]

You appear to cling to the stories that please you, and reject the ones that don't, when they are all on the same level, as far as being a supernatural/unprovable/cartoonish story goes. Why would the story of Moses be literal, but creation isn't? You have to intellectually base your decision on SOMETHING!!!

I do. Case by case. Book by book. Author by author. Remember the etymology of the word "Bible" is also used for plural of books--and even library. Essentially, you are telling me that if I go down to the local library, I either have to (in order to be consistent) take everything in that library literally or none of it literally.

I examine each book of the Bible, each story in each book, and then search out all the possibilities from there. Your perspective seems to consistently be, "Find everything that cannot be verified by the scientific method." To my mind, kind of a funny way to read the Bible, but it is consistent.

(By the way, ALL the stories please me, with the exception I do get a little restless reading all the rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.)

So you're the judge of what some call gods words. Creation in 6 days? Naw, that's bullshit. Invisible stone carver? Ya, that makes sense.

 

[Meriweather]

[So you're the judge of what some call gods words. Creation in 6 days? Naw, that's bullshit. Invisible stone carver? Ya, that makes sense.

Not to me, it doesn't. First, why would God have to carve? Second, why would it take so long? Third, why would Moses have to cut the tablets for Him? Was Moses giving God credit for the inspiration and the materials--not to mention the ability to carve the words into stone himself? A possibility, but not necessarily correct. And again, there is still no accounting for the radiant face.

Hebrew lore says Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. However, scholars find the hands of at least five people in the Pentateuch. I tend to believe it is the scholars, not Jewish lore that is the most correct. Or, if Moses did write the first five books of the Bible, it was later edited.

Because Exodus is not a first person account, I don't rule out the supernatural--that God Himself carved out the first two sets of the Ten Commandments. I simply acknowledge the possibility that Moses, inspired by God, carved the words into stone. Either way, it doesn't change how I view the Commandments. Or the Bible.

 

[Mudda]

[So you're the judge of what some call gods words. Creation in 6 days? Naw, that's bullshit. Invisible stone carver? Ya, that makes sense.

Not to me, it doesn't. First, why would God have to carve? Second, why would it take so long? Third, why would Moses have to cut the tablets for Him? Was Moses giving God credit for the inspiration and the materials--not to mention the ability to carve the words into stone himself? A possibility, but not necessarily correct. And again, there is still no accounting for the radiant face.

Hebrew lore says Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. However, scholars find the hands of at least five people in the Pentateuch. I tend to believe it is the scholars, not Jewish lore that is the most correct. Or, if Moses did write the first five books of the Bible, it was later edited.

Because Exodus is not a first person account, I don't rule out the supernatural--that God Himself carved out the first two sets of the Ten Commandments. I simply acknowledge the possibility that Moses, inspired by God, carved the words into stone. Either way, it doesn't change how I view the Commandments. Or the Bible.

Your whole belief seems to hinge on a "radiant face". So how do you even know that that happened? What did they mean by radiant? And how many interpretations of that story are accepted in Christianity?
So Moses carved the tablets himself? That's not how your religion sees it.

 

[Meriweather]

Your whole belief seems to hinge on a "radiant face". So how do you even know that that happened? What did they mean by radiant? And how many interpretations of that story are accepted in Christianity? So Moses carved the tablets himself? That's not how your religion sees it.

Actually, the words Catholicism uses are that the Ten Commandments were issued by God. Catholics are free to believe whether this issuance included writing them out Himself (with a finger of light); or, Catholics can take the Hebrew figurative usage of the words "Finger of God" which translates into by the power, direction, or infallibility of God. Usually, when the Finger of God is being used, it denotes something even more powerful is about to happen (designated by the Hand of God or by the Arm of God). For example, the ten plagues in Egypt are seen as the finger of God, whereas the parting of the Red Sea is seen as the hand of God.

As there are so many Protestant sects of Christianity, I cannot say which each one teaches or believes about the figurative use of the original Hebrew.

As for myself: I am a Catholic who tends to believe the figurative interpretation of the Finger of God, while leaving open the possibility of that ray of light. Either way, I do believe they are of God.

 

[Mudda]

Your whole belief seems to hinge on a "radiant face". So how do you even know that that happened? What did they mean by radiant? And how many interpretations of that story are accepted in Christianity? So Moses carved the tablets himself? That's not how your religion sees it.

Actually, the words Catholicism uses are that the Ten Commandments were issued by God. Catholics are free to believe whether this issuance included writing them out Himself (with a finger of light); or, Catholics can take the Hebrew figurative usage of the words "Finger of God" which translates into by the power, direction, or infallibility of God. Usually, when the Finger of God is being used, it denotes something even more powerful is about to happen (designated by the Hand of God or by the Arm of God). For example, the ten plagues in Egypt are seen as the finger of God, whereas the parting of the Red Sea is seen as the hand of God.

As there are so many Protestant sects of Christianity, I cannot say which each one teaches or believes about the figurative use of the original Hebrew.

As for myself: I am a Catholic who tends to believe the figurative interpretation of the Finger of God, while leaving open the possibility of that ray of light. Either way, I do believe they are of God.

Based on what? Personal feelings?

 

[Meriweather]

Based on what? Personal feelings?

Based both on adult studies and personal experiences in living the faith.

Too many people may decide on atheism based on what they learned as children--i.e. the Children's Bible. Then, as they reach their teens or adulthood, they decided what they learned as children covered everything and in effect put away childhood things. In effect, they put away their tricycles as a mode of transportation, thinking that tricycle is the only mode of transportation when it comes to faith, and never test drove the car or tried flying the airplane.

 

[Mudda]

Based on what? Personal feelings?

Based both on adult studies and personal experiences in living the faith.

Too many people may decide on atheism based on what they learned as children--i.e. the Children's Bible. Then, as they reach their teens or adulthood, they decided what they learned as children covered everything and in effect put away childhood things. In effect, they put away their tricycles as a mode of transportation, thinking that tricycle is the only mode of transportation when it comes to faith, and never test drove the car or tried flying the airplane.

That's because as you grow up, most people can see that Santa Claus is fake. You're clinging to myths and children's stories as an adult without the proper critical thinking like an adult should. It's absurd to think that some invisible stone cutter made the tablets, and the only real conclusion you can come to is that Moses was a liar and made them himself, IF that story actually even happened.

 

[Meriweather]

That's because as you grow up, most people can see that Santa Claus is fake. You're clinging to myths and children's stories as an adult without the proper critical thinking like an adult should. It's absurd to think that some invisible stone cutter made the tablets, and the only real conclusion you can come to is that Moses was a liar and made them himself, IF that story actually even happened.

I learned the truth about Santa when I was seven. I was thrilled. Until then I didn't realize just how good adults were at playing. Couldn't wait to grow up and play Santa myself.

This, I think, is the difference between us. The reality you saw was "Fake Santa". The reality I saw parents at play with their children. Great game, too.

I see you are still clinging to the child's belief of literal scripture. Did you never study the original Hebrew? Did you miss the English lessons on figurative speech?

Moses probably had a realization (that most people have at some time in their life) that the Ten Commandments had to come from elsewhere; that he, as a man, hadn't given these issues much thought. Yet, suddenly, they were in his mind and heart. As an atheist, you might say, "They had been in his subconscious and finally emerged." Okay. That's what some believe.

People of faith see it differently. Those who see figurative speech in the story, relate it to the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit, because that same language is used elsewhere in the Bible regarding the Holy Spirit. Moses felt he was overcome by the spirit of God, and the Commandments came from that Spirit--not from anything in his own mind.

As for those who take the finger of God literally: This is a true childlike faith, and Christ said blessed are they who have the faith of a child. I may doubt their knowledge of language and science--but I never doubt their faith. In the end, faith is more vital than either of the others.

 

[Mudda]

That's because as you grow up, most people can see that Santa Claus is fake. You're clinging to myths and children's stories as an adult without the proper critical thinking like an adult should. It's absurd to think that some invisible stone cutter made the tablets, and the only real conclusion you can come to is that Moses was a liar and made them himself, IF that story actually even happened.

I learned the truth about Santa when I was seven. I was thrilled. Until then I didn't realize just how good adults were at playing. Couldn't wait to grow up and play Santa myself.

This, I think, is the difference between us. The reality you saw was "Fake Santa". The reality I saw parents at play with their children. Great game, too.

I see you are still clinging to the child's belief of literal scripture. Did you never study the original Hebrew? Did you miss the English lessons on figurative speech?

Moses probably had a realization (that most people have at some time in their life) that the Ten Commandments had to come from elsewhere; that he, as a man, hadn't given these issues much thought. Yet, suddenly, they were in his mind and heart. As an atheist, you might say, "They had been in his subconscious and finally emerged." Okay. That's what some believe.

People of faith see it differently. Those who see figurative speech in the story, relate it to the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit, because that same language is used elsewhere in the Bible regarding the Holy Spirit. Moses felt he was overcome by the spirit of God, and the Commandments came from that Spirit--not from anything in his own mind.

As for those who take the finger of God literally: This is a true childlike faith, and Christ said blessed are they who have the faith of a child. I may doubt their knowledge of language and science--but I never doubt their faith. In the end, faith is more vital than either of the others.

Ipso facto, you're a fake Catholic, as you don't really believe any story in the to be true. You're more of a spiritualist with no particular religious affiliation, well, not Catholic in any case.

 

[Meriweather]

Ipso facto, you're a fake Catholic, as you don't really believe any story in the to be true. You're more of a spiritualist with no particular religious affiliation, well, not Catholic in any case.

Fake Catholic? Where do you think I learned what I am passing on to you? That's right. Catholic Church, Catholic commentary, Catholic Bible Studies, etc. That bolstered by checking out the figurative language assertions against the actual Hebrew language. Adult studies, not the stories that were presented to me as a child or teenager.

By any chance are you pre-Vatican II? Or perhaps one of your parents/grandparents were? I know some Catholics who prefer to attend the Latin Mass. While that is not my preference, I've never heard anyone who did refer to me as a fake Catholic. Try again.

 

[PK1]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Specific god belief/faith is like putting the cart in front of the horse, i.e., ...
confirmation bias.

How do you know if anything is real or fantasy?

For many of us it came through self examination and we do witness to what we have seen and experienced.

Real or fantasy?
Yes, experience is usually (not always) a good differentiator, especially if you compare your experiences with another brain/person ... to be more objective.
Ultimately, it's about adaptation (to your environment/ecology) and survival that will reflect "reality".

I have learned that as mere humans we may think one thing but the facts may be something wholly different upon extreme examination. Most of us fail to recognize that there are spiritual things that determine our very thoughts and actions. We do that as we cannot understand certain things when they happen or when we were involved in them but unaware of the spiritual. It is something like asking a crowd of people what they saw when things happen but several saw something different even though all had a similar place to watch an event unfold. Or meeting someone for what you think is the first time yet there is something about that person that you seem to have known for a long time.

I do know when a person is being awakened spiritual and that veil between the spiritual mind and the carnal mind is removed it is very confusing to the flesh as we were not taught to view things in the spirit.

Sorry, but your comments convinced me that you live in a fantasy world where you use the word "spiritual" to reflect your ignorance, yet pretend you understand it in some way.
I am simply honest; i admit my ignorance beyond the horizon of the known (aka agnosticism).

 

[RodISHI]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Specific god belief/faith is like putting the cart in front of the horse, i.e., ...
confirmation bias.

How do you know if anything is real or fantasy?

For many of us it came through self examination and we do witness to what we have seen and experienced.

Real or fantasy?
Yes, experience is usually (not always) a good differentiator, especially if you compare your experiences with another brain/person ... to be more objective.
Ultimately, it's about adaptation (to your environment/ecology) and survival that will reflect "reality".

I have learned that as mere humans we may think one thing but the facts may be something wholly different upon extreme examination. Most of us fail to recognize that there are spiritual things that determine our very thoughts and actions. We do that as we cannot understand certain things when they happen or when we were involved in them but unaware of the spiritual. It is something like asking a crowd of people what they saw when things happen but several saw something different even though all had a similar place to watch an event unfold. Or meeting someone for what you think is the first time yet there is something about that person that you seem to have known for a long time.

I do know when a person is being awakened spiritual and that veil between the spiritual mind and the carnal mind is removed it is very confusing to the flesh as we were not taught to view things in the spirit.

Sorry, but your comments convinced me that you live in a fantasy world where you use the word "spiritual" to reflect your ignorance, yet pretend you understand it in some way.
I am simply honest; i admit my ignorance beyond the horizon of the known (aka agnosticism).

I was "simply honest" too as I tell you that from experience. Carnally minded humans are extremely limited.

 

[PK1]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Let's make the question more straight-forward. Sometimes, when people are trying to pray, do they enter into the realm of fantasy? The answer for me is, "Absolutely!" I enter into fantasy/imagination even in every day life. I know when I am imagining something, and I also know what is real.

Perhaps the problem for many atheists is that they do try to pray...and all they can come up with is fantasy. Therefore, it is easy to assume that this state must be the same for everyone, that some people are simply better pretenders. Instead think of people hitting the bulls-eye when shooting a bow and arrow from a distance of three hundred feet or more. Not many people will hit that target every time. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, especially with continuous practice. In many respects prayer is a skill.

Did you conclude that you consider your prayer behavior a "skill" within your fantasies?