Collective bargaining is not a right.

[8537]

So, to those who say it is a right, where EXACTLY does it come from?

This lesson comes free of charge: The Constitution is not a laundry list of freedom's granted to citizens. If it were, then cutting fruit with one's left hand would be illegal - afterall, no such right is expressly granted by the Constitution.

The Constitution, rather than a list of rights retained by citizens, is a very specific list of rights and restrictions granted to government. This is the first lesson in any civics class.

 

[Liberty]

I think Liberty you may want to clarify what you mean by collectively bargain. Because in the literal definition of the phrase I don't see how the concept of a right being associated with it pertains. It certainly isnt something the constitution prohibits. The constitution doesn't deny people the freedom to organize, in fact it protects it. What part of the constitution says a group of peope can't band together to negotiate the best employment conditions they can? Nothing as far as i can see.

What today's unions need to keep in mind however, is they don't have the right to prevent an employer from simply hiring other people who will work for less than what the union is demanding. It seems to me the unions simply want to tip the scales unfairly in their over favor. They want their demands met, but they don't want to have the leverage a true free labor market would require to make those demands a reality.

so do public sector unions have the right to strong-arm the government into outrageous pensions and benefits paid for with tax payer money?

 

[manifold]

If any city, town, state or the federal government passed a law criminalizing collective bargaining, it would surely be thrown out by the SCOTUS as unconstitutional.

Does ANYONE here not agree with this statement? God help you if you do.

 

[konradv]

From Walker's campaign website:

Throughout six years of deficit spending and fiscal mismanagement, Governor Doyle left us with a state budget that could not weather even a small downturn in the economy. In a desperate attempt to remedy a $6 billion deficit (4th largest in the nation), the Governor recently signed a budget that raised taxes by over $2 billion and spending by over 6%.

Much of Wisconsin’s economic woes have resulted from years of delaying prudent financial decisions while making little effort to implement a pro-growth agenda for the state.

The decisions that our state and local leaders make now will determine the health of our economy for a generation. We cannot afford to perpetuate Wisconsin's fiscal woes by continually raising taxes and fees to avoid making the tough choices to prioritize spending.

Wisconsin deserves a government that puts the needs of citizens first. The following set of reforms will help put state government back on the side of the people:

Start the state budget at zero. Just because a government program has a vocal constituency and a high-priced lobbyist does not mean it should continue, let alone receive automatic funding increases. Every dollar spent should be scrutinized and justified, not simply given a blind percentage increase.

Require the use of generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) to balance every state budget, just as we require every local government and school district to do.

Strip policy and pork projects from the state budget. The budget process should be about funding essential government services based on the taxpayers’ ability to pay. It should not be about horse trading for special interest groups or establishing talking points for the next campaign.

End the practice of raiding segregated state funds to pay for other programs. If taxpayer revenue is collected for a specific purpose such as building and maintaining roads, it should be used for that purpose and that purpose only.

Restore Wisconsin’s reputation for clean and honest government through transparency in the state contracting process. Require lobbyists to report all attempts to influence state agency decisions regarding the awarding of state contracts and grants and provide real time disclosure of all contracts and grant awards. Government is spending your money and you have a right to know when, where, and how much.


Government Spending & Reform | Scott Walker for Wisconsin Governor


Walker is doing what he promised - standing up t the Public Employee Union Special Interests.

Where is 'collective bargaining' mentioned? Seems they left it out! Why is that? Could it be because the voters might not have agreed with them, if long-held rights were to be summarily taken away? An intelligent worker would realize, if they can do that to state employess, what protections do I have?

 

[konradv]

I think Liberty you may want to clarify what you mean by collectively bargain. Because in the literal definition of the phrase I don't see how the concept of a right being associated with it pertains. It certainly isnt something the constitution prohibits. The constitution doesn't deny people the freedom to organize, in fact it protects it. What part of the constitution says a group of peope can't band together to negotiate the best employment conditions they can? Nothing as far as i can see.

What today's unions need to keep in mind however, is they don't have the right to prevent an employer from simply hiring other people who will work for less than what the union is demanding. It seems to me the unions simply want to tip the scales unfairly in their over favor. They want their demands met, but they don't want to have the leverage a true free labor market would require to make those demands a reality.

so do public sector unions have the right to strong-arm the government into outrageous pensions and benefits paid for with tax payer money?

I believe they agreed to concessions. Should the government or any employer have the right to strong arm the workers into accepting anything they put out?

 

[boedicca]

"Start the state budget at zero" means all prior bets are off the table.

There isn't a sacred cow exception for public employee unions - which is why Walker has proposed an annual opt in vote for government employees.

 

[LilOlLady]

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right.

 

[boedicca]

I think Liberty you may want to clarify what you mean by collectively bargain. Because in the literal definition of the phrase I don't see how the concept of a right being associated with it pertains. It certainly isnt something the constitution prohibits. The constitution doesn't deny people the freedom to organize, in fact it protects it. What part of the constitution says a group of peope can't band together to negotiate the best employment conditions they can? Nothing as far as i can see.

What today's unions need to keep in mind however, is they don't have the right to prevent an employer from simply hiring other people who will work for less than what the union is demanding. It seems to me the unions simply want to tip the scales unfairly in their over favor. They want their demands met, but they don't want to have the leverage a true free labor market would require to make those demands a reality.

so do public sector unions have the right to strong-arm the government into outrageous pensions and benefits paid for with tax payer money?

I believe they agreed to concessions. Should the government or any employer have the right to strong arm the workers into accepting anything they put out?

If they don't like it, they can quit and seek better jobs.

 

[boedicca]

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right.

Irrelevant. What foreign organizations approve doesn't bind the U.S. Or should we also execute gays for being in violation of Sharia law?

 

[Sallow]

So, to those who say it is a right, where EXACTLY does it come from?

This lesson comes free of charge: The Constitution is not a laundry list of freedom's granted to citizens. If it were, then cutting fruit with one's left hand would be illegal - afterall, no such right is expressly granted by the Constitution.

The Constitution, rather than a list of rights retained by citizens, is a very specific list of rights and restrictions granted to government. This is the first lesson in any civics class.

Tsk tsk. Afraid your sage advice falls on a de-facto blind "textualist" mind.

 

[LilOlLady]

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right.

Irrelevant. What foreign organizations approve doesn't bind the U.S. Or should we also execute gays for being in violation of Sharia law?

Take a few minutes and read;
National Labor Relations Act
collective bargaining legal definition of collective bargaining. collective bargaining synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

 

[kwc57]

You have a right to peacefully assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances, but you don't have the right to collectively bargain. This is fantasy. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, or collectively bargain? Which one ACTUALLY appears in the bill of rights? That's what I thought. Commies, go home.

National Labor Relations Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The National Labor Relations Act or Wagner Act (after its sponsor, Senator Robert F. Wagner) (Pub.L. 74-198, 49 Stat. 449, codified as amended at 29 U.S.C. § 151–169), is a 1935 United States federal law that limits the means with which employers may react to workers in the private sector who create labor unions, engage in collective bargaining, and take part in strikes and other forms of concerted activity in support of their demands. The Act does not apply to workers who are covered by the Railway Labor Act, agricultural employees, domestic employees, supervisors, federal, state or local government workers, independent contractors and some close relatives of individual employers..........

We are talking public sector, buddy, thanks anyway though.

Actually, you may have meant to, but you didn't specify that in your OP or thread title now did you? We aren't mind readers. To get correct responses, it helps if you have a well thought out and specific OP. Editting your OP now is nice, but a day late and dollar short buddy, thanks anyway though.

 

[Bern80]

I think Liberty you may want to clarify what you mean by collectively bargain. Because in the literal definition of the phrase I don't see how the concept of a right being associated with it pertains. It certainly isnt something the constitution prohibits. The constitution doesn't deny people the freedom to organize, in fact it protects it. What part of the constitution says a group of peope can't band together to negotiate the best employment conditions they can? Nothing as far as i can see.

What today's unions need to keep in mind however, is they don't have the right to prevent an employer from simply hiring other people who will work for less than what the union is demanding. It seems to me the unions simply want to tip the scales unfairly in their over favor. They want their demands met, but they don't want to have the leverage a true free labor market would require to make those demands a reality.

so do public sector unions have the right to strong-arm the government into outrageous pensions and benefits paid for with tax payer money?

They have the right to try. And elected officials have the right to say no.

 

[Intense]

Collective bargaining is a fiscal problem for the State of Wisconsin. It basically ties the hands of the Governor and the representatives (us, the people). The workers are being used and lied to by the “union”.

When I worked for a union company (for 25 years) I had to pay union dues. We (the workers) had to send $20 per month to the union hall and if we fell three months behind we would have to “re-initiate” and pay $500 plus whatever months we missed or we would be out of the “union”, out of a job and likely “blackballed”.

$20 a month sounds like a pretty good deal right? Wrong. It’s a big giant rip off because for every hour we worked we had to pay $1.57 to what the union calls “dues check off”. You read that right. For a forty hour work week we paid $1.57 for every hour worked to the “dues check off”. This amounts to $62.80 every week. That comes to $251.20 every month. Add the $20 we had to pay to the union hall every month it comes to $271.20 per month!
Guess what the average worker thinks he pays in dues for a month? If asked most workers will say $20.
They think that all they pay is $20 per month for dues! Ha, ha, ha!!!

Most workers don’t realize that they actually pay $271.20 per month for “UNION DUES”!! That’s $3,254.40 per year……….. for “UNION DUES”!! That’s just the f**king dues!!!

This money I’m sure the “union” would not like to see go out of their pockets. THIS is the reason the unions are pulling out all of the stops in Wisconsin. Believe me after 25 years dealing with the union I know firsthand that they don’t care one iota about the worker other than the dues they collect. They also make a boatload of money on the benefits as the hold the money and skim the interest off the top making many millions on the interest alone for just one account. What do they do with all of the money? Inquiring minds would like to know. I can only imagine. We’re talking billions of dollars made off the backs of the “union workers”. It used to be justifiable…now it’s a rip-off. Follow the money….it’s probably over in Cairo by now though.

Edited

MADISON, Wis. - It was a common refrain among union protesters last weekend: “It’s about the rights; it’s not about the money.” But for Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, it is about the money -- both the money needed to balance the state budget and the politically influential money union leaders collect and now seek to protect.

Opponents of Walker’s bill to limit collective bargaining and reduce public teacher benefits seem to think the right to collectively negotiate should be treated as sacred. They just want a seat at the table, they say.

Given that, union workers claim they might even voluntarily agree to a reduction in the posh benefits they currently enjoy, such as pensions to which they contribute less than 1 percent and health care premiums for which they pay 6 percent.

But from Walker’s perspective, collective bargaining itself is a fiscal issue, in no small part because it allows union leaders to sit across the negotiating table from voters’ representatives and have an equal say in how the government spends its money.

As long as union leaders have to agree to government spending plans, voters’ representatives do not have the final say. Unions, therefore, can systematically redirect tax dollars to themselves.

The governor’s office is pushing back aggressively, offering real-life examples to support its proposal.



Read more at the Washington Examiner: WISCONSIN UPDATE: Why collective bargaining is a fiscal issue | Tina Korbe | Op Eds | Washington Examiner

 

[8537]

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right.

Irrelevant. What foreign organizations approve doesn't bind the U.S. Or should we also execute gays for being in violation of Sharia law?

We are signatories to those conventions.

 

[Intense]

From Walker's campaign website:

Throughout six years of deficit spending and fiscal mismanagement, Governor Doyle left us with a state budget that could not weather even a small downturn in the economy. In a desperate attempt to remedy a $6 billion deficit (4th largest in the nation), the Governor recently signed a budget that raised taxes by over $2 billion and spending by over 6%.

Much of Wisconsin’s economic woes have resulted from years of delaying prudent financial decisions while making little effort to implement a pro-growth agenda for the state.

The decisions that our state and local leaders make now will determine the health of our economy for a generation. We cannot afford to perpetuate Wisconsin's fiscal woes by continually raising taxes and fees to avoid making the tough choices to prioritize spending.

Wisconsin deserves a government that puts the needs of citizens first. The following set of reforms will help put state government back on the side of the people:

Start the state budget at zero. Just because a government program has a vocal constituency and a high-priced lobbyist does not mean it should continue, let alone receive automatic funding increases. Every dollar spent should be scrutinized and justified, not simply given a blind percentage increase.

Require the use of generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) to balance every state budget, just as we require every local government and school district to do.

Strip policy and pork projects from the state budget. The budget process should be about funding essential government services based on the taxpayers’ ability to pay. It should not be about horse trading for special interest groups or establishing talking points for the next campaign.

End the practice of raiding segregated state funds to pay for other programs. If taxpayer revenue is collected for a specific purpose such as building and maintaining roads, it should be used for that purpose and that purpose only.

Restore Wisconsin’s reputation for clean and honest government through transparency in the state contracting process. Require lobbyists to report all attempts to influence state agency decisions regarding the awarding of state contracts and grants and provide real time disclosure of all contracts and grant awards. Government is spending your money and you have a right to know when, where, and how much.


Government Spending & Reform | Scott Walker for Wisconsin Governor


Walker is doing what he promised - standing up t the Public Employee Union Special Interests.

Where is 'collective bargaining' mentioned? Seems they left it out! Why is that? Could it be because the voters might not have agreed with them, if long-held rights were to be summarily taken away? An intelligent worker would realize, if they can do that to state employess, what protections do I have?

The same you alway's have had. True protection comes from fair Labor Laws, not Privileged Contracts. Are there issues with Fair Labor Laws???? Fight to change Them without Partiality, in fairness to all concerned. Stop making excuses for the Protected Class, which only got that way short changing the rest of us. They have displaced the True Middle Class, Bankrupted the System, and plan to continue ignoring the damage that is being done, everyday.

 

[boedicca]

Collective bargaining is a fundamental human right

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right.

Irrelevant. What foreign organizations approve doesn't bind the U.S. Or should we also execute gays for being in violation of Sharia law?

We are signatories to those conventions.

That doesn't mean they supersede U.S. law.

 

[8537]

Irrelevant. What foreign organizations approve doesn't bind the U.S. Or should we also execute gays for being in violation of Sharia law?

We are signatories to those conventions.

That doesn't mean they supersede U.S. law.

There's no law making collective bargaining illegal, so there's no law to supersede.

Remember when we invaded a country because they weren't abiding by international covenants?

 

[Jeemie]

You have a right to peacefully assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances, but you don't have the right to collectively bargain. This is fantasy. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, or collectively bargain? Which one ACTUALLY appears in the bill of rights? That's what I thought.

This analysis of yours is incorrect.

The 9th Amendment clearly states that the enumerated list of rights in the Constitution is not exhaustive.

So just because something is not listed in the Constitution does not mean it's not a right.

To believe so betrays a fundamental ignorance of the Constitution's purpose.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The proper mechanism to make changes is via the legislative process. If the American people truly wish collective bargaining to be a right, then the Constitution should be amended. I doubt there is enough real desire for such.

At the federal level, collective bargaining rights, at least for the private sector, are protected under the Wagner Act of 1935.

So you, and the OP, are at least half wrong.