Civil Disobedience and Terry Schaivo

[SmarterThanYou]

If the spouse can't communicate, all you have to say is that my spouse wanted to die if this ever happened to him/her.

no you cant. nobody can. you have doctors, other family, and the courts. the spouse is NOT the final say when theres doubt as we have seen here.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

bottom line is this.

You and I have been through some pretty scary things wiht my health.
Youre afraid of your rights being taken away as a husband wanting to uphold my wishes as the patient. I can understand that. I think that anyone wuuld.
I dont know if this woman's husband is doing that - I dont know that he isnt.
NONE of us know this.

I think that people would be better received when they are so vehemently opposed or for ANY position if they would explain WHY they hold the opinion of said position.

But again, thats just my opinion.

I thought that I had done that, at least once and maybe twice, others have as well.

 

[dilloduck]

We can review all the laws that are there but we'll still end up with one of two things. we'll either remove the entire possibility of a 'right to die' or we'll end up questioning the decisions of judges for all eternity and never get anywhere. Lots of people are uncomfortable with the line from time to time but overall I think that the system works fine. Are there exceptions? always, we see it every day. Thats what appeals were designed for though.

The right to die is there if she would have been responsible and written it down----now it just seems like he's letting her die out of spite for her parents

 

[MyName]

I thought that I had done that, at least once and maybe twice, others have as well.

Ok. Well, then nevermind. I guess Im just doing that 'shes gone crazy again' thing in thinking that this thread is out of control.

Now, I actually HAVE things to do today and responsibilities to pay attention to. Im going to go do that.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

The right to die is there if she would have been responsible and written it down----now it just seems like he's letting her die out of spite for her parents

then you're not recognizing the huge reality of the sanctity and responsibility of marriage. as i said, for centuries the spouses word has always held weight with the courts but it doesn't override them.

 

[dilloduck]

then you're not recognizing the huge reality of the sanctity and responsibility of marriage. as i said, for centuries the spouses word has always held weight with the courts but it doesn't override them.

Nothing has been taken away from the husband----NOTHING!

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Nothing has been taken away from the husband----NOTHING!

yes there has dillo. If your wife is in the hospital and the doctor says that she needs an operation that is a 90% risk to her life immediately, but if she doesn't have it then she'll die in 4 months while in a coma and you say do the operation then any family member can say STOP!!!! theres no advance directive or living will and she wouldn't want to risk her life like that. the spousal responsibility is being removed. just open your eyes man.

 

[dilloduck]

yes there has dillo. If your wife is in the hospital and the doctor says that she needs an operation that is a 90% risk to her life immediately, but if she doesn't have it then she'll die in 4 months while in a coma and you say do the operation then any family member can say STOP!!!! theres no advance directive or living will and she wouldn't want to risk her life like that. the spousal responsibility is being removed. just open your eyes man.

apparently that's not the law in FL right now---the family can't do shit !

 

[no1tovote4]

We can review all the laws that are there but we'll still end up with one of two things. we'll either remove the entire possibility of a 'right to die' or we'll end up questioning the decisions of judges for all eternity and never get anywhere. Lots of people are uncomfortable with the line from time to time but overall I think that the system works fine. Are there exceptions? always, we see it every day. Thats what appeals were designed for though.

That is incorrect, we can remove the uncertainty and require written documents either directing action, or giving somebody Medical Power of Attorney so that they can direct action.

Clearly the doubt has entered here from the actions of the husband that are not considered in the courts per the current law. They still would not be considered in the change of law, but the certainty level would be significantly increased beyond the doubt level included in this case.

All this could be done while clearing up the courts from cases such as this, and when the cases like this do come before the courts the clear requirement of written documents would require them to presume on behalf of life.

Saying that it would make it so you couldn't give up your right to life in such a situation is simply wrong. IMHO it shows that you seek not a common ground but to force others to fit the mold of your opinion.

 

[MissileMan]

You keep missing the fact that I do not object to the decisions of the Judges, they made the correct decisions according to current FL law. I simply am of the opinion that the laws should be reviewed and changed in order to better protect the patient in cases where there is clear doubt as to the wishes of the patient, as in this one.

So how would you write this law?

 

[no1tovote4]

So how would you write this law?

I would require written instructions in cases with life or death at stake, either written instructions on what to do under which conditions or clear instructions as to whom has been directed and is therefore appointed to make the decisions for her, if written instructions are not in existence an error on the side of life would be necessary when objections are raised and reasonable questions exist as to the wishes of the spouse.

If she wished her husband to make these decisions for her she could write a living will that gave him Medical Power of Attorney in cases where she could not make the choice for herself, if such paper is in existence then decisions made by that power could be treated as the same as coming from the patient herself. Had this been in existence the court cases would have been non-existant and short-lived if it was tried at all. Had it not been in existence and her family had no objections or agreed with the decision and there was not the amount of reasonable doubt that exists here then the wishes would also be carried out. If there was reasonable doubt as to the wishes, as there are in this case, the court would be instructed to err on the side of life.

I have written one myself. I chose somebody other than my wife to make the decisions not because I distrust her but because I don't want her under undue pressures if this happens to me. My father had one, I was named as his Power of Attorney and I had to make the choice that Schiavo tried to make in this case. Nobody in my family objected as they knew I was the sole person to whom my father gave instructions as to what to do.

I think this should be handled at a State level however and not at the Federal level.

 

[dilloduck]

I would require written instructions in cases with life or death at stake, either written instructions on what to do under which conditions or clear instructions as to whom has been directed and is therefore appointed to make the decisions for her, if written instructions are not in existence an error on the side of life would be necessary when objections are raised and reasonable questions exist as to the wishes of the spouse.

If she wished her husband to make these decisions for her she could write a living will that gave him Medical Power of Attorney in cases where she could not make the choice for herself, if such paper is in existence then decisions made by that power could be treated as the same as coming from the patient herself. Had this been in existence the court cases would have been non-existant and short-lived if it was tried at all. Had it not been in existence and her family had no objections or agreed with the decision and there was not the amount of reasonable doubt that exists here then the wishes would also be carried out. If there was reasonable doubt as to the wishes, as there are in this case, the court would be instructed to err on the side of life.

I have written one myself. I chose somebody other than my wife to make the decisions not because I distrust her but because I don't want her under undue pressures if this happens to me. My father had one, I was named as his Power of Attorney and I had to make the choice that Schiavo tried to make in this case. Nobody in my family objected as they knew I was the sole person to whom my father gave instructions as to what to do.

I think this should be handled at a State level however and not at the Federal level.

 

[Bonnie]

bottom line is this.

You and I have been through some pretty scary things wiht my health.
Youre afraid of your rights being taken away as a husband wanting to uphold my wishes as the patient. I can understand that. I think that anyone wuuld.
I dont know if this woman's husband is doing that - I dont know that he isnt.
NONE of us know this.

I think that people would be better received when they are so vehemently opposed or for ANY position if they would explain WHY they hold the opinion of said position.

But again, thats just my opinion.

First thank you for being objective and repsectful

I understand what your husband is feeling, but he is a loving husband, and you probably have taken care of your wishes with eachother.

In this case there is a good amount of evidence that Terri's husband is a Bastard (pardon the bluntness) and none of that evidence is being looked at or allowed in court maybe because of legal loopholes in the law in the State of FLA I really can't say, additionally he if anything is being hailed as this martyred noble person by a lot of people in our country who are willing to overlook his possible motives because they are so worried how this case is, or will relate to them personally. On the flip side you have parents that have been villafied as selfish, intrusive, right winged, religious nut cases for doing what anyone in their position would do if they loved their children.. They know this guy Michael better than anyone else does, and I can't even imagine the frustration they are enduring when certain judges won't allow their side to fully be explained, or allow updated testimony of doctors who now say there is a decent chance she could get better with therapy.

It just makes me wonder about the true compasson of people in this world and especially of those in positions of authority.

 

[Bonnie]

I would require written instructions in cases with life or death at stake, either written instructions on what to do under which conditions or clear instructions as to whom has been directed and is therefore appointed to make the decisions for her, if written instructions are not in existence an error on the side of life would be necessary when objections are raised and reasonable questions exist as to the wishes of the spouse.

If she wished her husband to make these decisions for her she could write a living will that gave him Medical Power of Attorney in cases where she could not make the choice for herself, if such paper is in existence then decisions made by that power could be treated as the same as coming from the patient herself. Had this been in existence the court cases would have been non-existant and short-lived if it was tried at all. Had it not been in existence and her family had no objections or agreed with the decision and there was not the amount of reasonable doubt that exists here then the wishes would also be carried out. If there was reasonable doubt as to the wishes, as there are in this case, the court would be instructed to err on the side of life.

I have written one myself. I chose somebody other than my wife to make the decisions not because I distrust her but because I don't want her under undue pressures if this happens to me. My father had one, I was named as his Power of Attorney and I had to make the choice that Schiavo tried to make in this case. Nobody in my family objected as they knew I was the sole person to whom my father gave instructions as to what to do.

I think this should be handled at a State level however and not at the Federal level.

Well stated..........

 

[menewa]

Is this the longest thread ever?

 

[no1tovote4]

Is this the longest thread ever?

Not even close, there is one in chat that has over 10,000 responses. Come visit us on the bottom of the board sometime.

 

[menewa]

Not even close, there is one in chat that has over 10,000 responses. Come visit us on the bottom of the board sometime.

Jeeez! That's way too many posts for my simple mind to keep up with.

 

[MyName]

First thank you for being objective and repsectful

I understand what your husband is feeling, but he is a loving husband, and you probably have taken care of your wishes with eachother.

In this case there is a good amount of evidence that Terri's husband is a Bastard (pardon the bluntness) and none of that evidence is being looked at or allowed in court maybe because of legal loopholes in the law in the State of FLA I really can't say, additionally he if anything is being hailed as this martyred noble person by a lot of people in our country who are willing to overlook his possible motives because they are so worried how this case is, or will relate to them personally. On the flip side you have parents that have been villafied as selfish, intrusive, right winged, religious nut cases for doing what anyone in their position would do if they loved their children.. They know this guy Michael better than anyone else does, and I can't even imagine the frustration they are enduring when certain judges won't allow their side to fully be explained, or allow updated testimony of doctors who now say there is a decent chance she could get better with therapy.

It just makes me wonder about the true compasson of people in this world and especially of those in positions of authority.

You are quite welcome. I am not the type of person to blindly agree wtih my husband based on the fact that simply he IS my husband. He doesnt blindly agree with me either LOL. We are individuals as well as a couple. I think that his manner of debate in this issue is less than what he is capable of. I can understand WHY it is as it is, but no one else does more than likely and the reality of it is that even if everyone understood, that still wouldnt make it right or even excusable/acceptable (whichever).

The parents (IMO) have received an extremely raw deal. I cant imagine what they are going through. As a parent, I am quite familiar wiht the instinct to protect my children at any cost. Seems to me that is what they are trying to do - maybe it IS what Terry would want....maybe it isnt.

I think that there is more to do with this case than any of us will ever know.
It's just a sad, sad thing all the way around.

 

[Bonnie]

You are quite welcome. I am not the type of person to blindly agree wtih my husband based on the fact that simply he IS my husband. He doesnt blindly agree with me either LOL. We are individuals as well as a couple. I think that his manner of debate in this issue is less than what he is capable of. I can understand WHY it is as it is, but no one else does more than likely and the reality of it is that even if everyone understood, that still wouldnt make it right or even excusable/acceptable (whichever).

The parents (IMO) have received an extremely raw deal. I cant imagine what they are going through. As a parent, I am quite familiar wiht the instinct to protect my children at any cost. Seems to me that is what they are trying to do - maybe it IS what Terry would want....maybe it isnt.

I think that there is more to do with this case than any of us will ever know.
It's just a sad, sad thing all the way around.

Agreed, at this point I can hope and pray that she really does want to die becasue the other way is just too horrible to contemplate, and we collectively have all failed her to some degree.

 

[MyName]

As long as everyone is more interested in 'right and wrong', or rather, BEING right and proclaiming everyone else wrong, we will continue to fail....ourselves and others alike.

Thats a sad, sad thing too......because last I checked, the whole right and wrong thing is human nature.

I will never understand why the crux of whatever issue tends to get buried under crapola like that. :huh: