Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[RKMBrown]

No. But I will not allow for this kind of religious oppression either. Because what it boils down to is that a religious couple were not to protect their beliefs and avoid committing a taboo among their religion, hence religious oppression light.

Do you honestly believe you can make a Christian sin against his own faith? On purpose, with him knowing and refusing?

First I don't agree with the convoluted logic that producing or selling a product is the same as participating in the use of the product.

Yes I do think you can make a Christian sin. Clearly from this thread that is a task that is all to easy.

Had you any type of deductive reasoning skills, you would understand that it wasn't the making of the product, it was the delivering, the enabling, the being part of the environment surrounding it which drove the couple to deny service. You have no idea what went through their minds when they did deny them service, since you aren't a Christian. You can't assume to know, yet you feel like you have the right to judge them with impunity. Despite your attempt to change the subject, I ask forgiveness for my sins all the time, but obligating someone to sin against their will is a different matter altogether. So thick headed you are.

I'm a christian. Have proclaimed so many times. How can you forget this from one day to the next?

I know what went through their minds, they proclaimed it loudly. Are you deaf that you can not hear? Are you so blind you can not see?

Delivering, enabling what a load of horse poo. Delivery of goods is a part of the sale. Enabling? WTF are you talking about? So now farmers are guilty of sin because their wheat and eggs might be eaten in the form of a cake at a gay wedding? How the hell could they sell to this baker who is known to have committed the sin of enabling gay people by feeding them? WTF is wrong with you.

Obligate to sin? Yeah wow cause selling food to gays is a sin.

 

[TemplarKormac]

First I don't agree with the convoluted logic that producing or selling a product is the same as participating in the use of the product.

Yes I do think you can make a Christian sin. Clearly from this thread that is a task that is all to easy.

Had you any type of deductive reasoning skills, you would understand that it wasn't the making of the product, it was the delivering, the enabling, the being part of the environment surrounding it which drove the couple to deny service. You have no idea what went through their minds when they did deny them service, since you aren't a Christian. You can't assume to know, yet you feel like you have the right to judge them with impunity. Despite your attempt to change the subject, I ask forgiveness for my sins all the time, but obligating someone to sin against their will is a different matter altogether. So thick headed you are.

I'm a christian. Have proclaimed so many times. How can you forget this from one day to the next?

I know what went through their minds, they proclaimed it loudly. Are you deaf that you can not hear? Are you so blind you can not see?

Delivering, enabling what a load of horse poo. Delivery of goods is a part of the sale. Enabling? WTF are you talking about? So now farmers are guilty of sin because their wheat and eggs might be eaten in the form of a cake at a gay wedding? How the hell could they sell to this baker who is known to have committed the sin of enabling gay people by feeding them? WTF is wrong with you.

Obligate to sin? Yeah wow cause selling food to gays is a sin.

Yeah, no Christian I know allows people to participate in sin. Nor does he advocate it. He would never lead another brother in Christ astray. If you weren't blind, you would see that it isn't the selling or the baking. If you weren't deaf, or without understanding as the Christian you claim to be, you would take the time to read the Bible. It clearly rebukes homosexuality, it also teaches you to stand up for your faith and for righteousness. What is so righteous about condoning this kind of sin? May I ask, what is wrong with you?


Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:58


You are so absolutely dense, you will never understand the "they have to deliver it to the wedding, thus they are part of the environment" part. You think that they would allow the couple to deliver such an expensive and well made cake to the wedding themself? How does that work out exactly? You ignore testimonies from people who have experience in the area, the bakery was not without a delivery service. But people cannot nor will they ever accept 'no' for an answer. Religious beliefs be damned. Constitutional rights be damned. The rights of any religious man adhering to his faith be damned also. He is nothing but a slave to political correctness. A slave to the sin he opposes.

You are weak in spirit, RKM. You are willing to sacrifice your Christian values for the sake of tolerating sinful behavior. I don't approve of homosexuality, but I will tolerate the person, not the sin. You claim to know what went through their heads, alas, I wish I could read minds like you. Stop pretending to know what people think unless you were there in their shoes the moment it happened.

And before I go, RKM:

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

-Romans 14:1-12

 

[TemplarKormac]

The farmer toils in the fields for a living, none of his works offend anyone. He knows nothing of where the end product of his work goes. He has no choice nor does he care, for none of it violates his conscience. The hens he dutifully raises, who lay the eggs which make the batter of that cake, carry on the life which God wills upon them; they serve their purpose in this world, they have no conscience of consequence, of right or wrong, of good or bad, or of sinfulness and righteousness. The couple in this bakery know what the Bible says about homosexuality, they have a sense of right and wrong, a sense of good or bad, a sense of sinfulness and righteousness.

The part of the farmer or the coop of chickens he raises is of no consequence. A non sequitur.

But the conscience of a man no longer matters. His beliefs are to be trampled underfoot with impunity, his sense of right and wrong judged summarily because he dares to have them. Who are you to judge the conscience of a man, or of any man, woman or child? Should you somehow come across the same dilemma this couple faced, expect no mercy from me, for you shewn none upon this couple or upon anyone who does likewise.



Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, for judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 2:12-13

 

[Gadawg73]

Had you any type of deductive reasoning skills, you would understand that it wasn't the making of the product, it was the delivering, the enabling, the being part of the environment surrounding it which drove the couple to deny service. You have no idea what went through their minds when they did deny them service, since you aren't a Christian. You can't assume to know, yet you feel like you have the right to judge them with impunity. Despite your attempt to change the subject, I ask forgiveness for my sins all the time, but obligating someone to sin against their will is a different matter altogether. So thick headed you are.

I'm a christian. Have proclaimed so many times. How can you forget this from one day to the next?

I know what went through their minds, they proclaimed it loudly. Are you deaf that you can not hear? Are you so blind you can not see?

Delivering, enabling what a load of horse poo. Delivery of goods is a part of the sale. Enabling? WTF are you talking about? So now farmers are guilty of sin because their wheat and eggs might be eaten in the form of a cake at a gay wedding? How the hell could they sell to this baker who is known to have committed the sin of enabling gay people by feeding them? WTF is wrong with you.

Obligate to sin? Yeah wow cause selling food to gays is a sin.

Yeah, no Christian I know allows people to participate in sin. Nor does he advocate it. He would never lead another brother in Christ astray. If you weren't blind, you would see that it isn't the selling or the baking. If you weren't deaf, or without understanding as the Christian you claim to be, you would take the time to read the Bible. It clearly rebukes homosexuality, it also teaches you to stand up for your faith and for righteousness. What is so righteous about condoning this kind of sin? May I ask, what is wrong with you?


Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:58


You are so absolutely dense, you will never understand the "they have to deliver it to the wedding, thus they are part of the environment" part. You think that they would allow the couple to deliver such an expensive and well made cake to the wedding themself? How does that work out exactly? You ignore testimonies from people who have experience in the area, the bakery was not without a delivery service. But people cannot nor will they ever accept 'no' for an answer. Religious beliefs be damned. Constitutional rights be damned. The rights of any religious man adhering to his faith be damned also. He is nothing but a slave to political correctness.

You are weak in spirit, RKM. You are willing to sacrifice your Christian values for the sake of tolerating sinful behavior. I don't approve of homosexuality, but I will tolerate the person, not the sin. You claim to know what went through their heads, alas, I wish I could read minds like you. Stop pretending to know what people think unless you were there in their shoes the moment it happened.

And before I go, RKM:

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

-Romans 14:1-12

It also bans eating BBQ hog sandwiches.
And eating fat.
Or blood.
Touching an "unclean" animal
Letting your hair become unkept
Tearing your clothes
Eating an animal which does not chew cud and has a divided hoof.
Touching the carcass of any of the banned animals (football would be out)
eating or touching carcasses of many types of birds
Touching carcasses of flying insects unless the legs are jointed
Eating any seafood without fins or scales You eat shrimp you are sinning
Going to church within 32 days of having a boy baby
66 for a girl
And dozens and dozens more along with being gay.

Yet you pick ONLY ONE to quote scripture on.
How many hog sandwiches have you eaten?
How many caterers refuse to wait on folks that eat hog sandwiches.
Eating Pork is A SIN, YOU ARE GOING TO HAYELL!!!

 

[Gadawg73]

Jesus taught to have mercy on everyone. Never heard him put gay folks down.
Time to get over this gay boogeyman, God hates fags routine folks.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I'm a christian. Have proclaimed so many times. How can you forget this from one day to the next?

I know what went through their minds, they proclaimed it loudly. Are you deaf that you can not hear? Are you so blind you can not see?

Delivering, enabling what a load of horse poo. Delivery of goods is a part of the sale. Enabling? WTF are you talking about? So now farmers are guilty of sin because their wheat and eggs might be eaten in the form of a cake at a gay wedding? How the hell could they sell to this baker who is known to have committed the sin of enabling gay people by feeding them? WTF is wrong with you.

Obligate to sin? Yeah wow cause selling food to gays is a sin.

Yeah, no Christian I know allows people to participate in sin. Nor does he advocate it. He would never lead another brother in Christ astray. If you weren't blind, you would see that it isn't the selling or the baking. If you weren't deaf, or without understanding as the Christian you claim to be, you would take the time to read the Bible. It clearly rebukes homosexuality, it also teaches you to stand up for your faith and for righteousness. What is so righteous about condoning this kind of sin? May I ask, what is wrong with you?


Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:58


You are so absolutely dense, you will never understand the "they have to deliver it to the wedding, thus they are part of the environment" part. You think that they would allow the couple to deliver such an expensive and well made cake to the wedding themself? How does that work out exactly? You ignore testimonies from people who have experience in the area, the bakery was not without a delivery service. But people cannot nor will they ever accept 'no' for an answer. Religious beliefs be damned. Constitutional rights be damned. The rights of any religious man adhering to his faith be damned also. He is nothing but a slave to political correctness.

You are weak in spirit, RKM. You are willing to sacrifice your Christian values for the sake of tolerating sinful behavior. I don't approve of homosexuality, but I will tolerate the person, not the sin. You claim to know what went through their heads, alas, I wish I could read minds like you. Stop pretending to know what people think unless you were there in their shoes the moment it happened.

And before I go, RKM:

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

-Romans 14:1-12

It also bans eating BBQ hog sandwiches.
And eating fat.
Or blood.
Touching an "unclean" animal
Letting your hair become unkept
Tearing your clothes
Eating an animal which does not chew cud and has a divided hoof.
Touching the carcass of any of the banned animals (football would be out)
eating or touching carcasses of many types of birds
Touching carcasses of flying insects unless the legs are jointed
Eating any seafood without fins or scales You eat shrimp you are sinning
Going to church within 32 days of having a boy baby
66 for a girl
And dozens and dozens more along with being gay.

Yet you pick ONLY ONE to quote scripture on.
How many hog sandwiches have you eaten?
How many caterers refuse to wait on folks that eat hog sandwiches.
Eating Pork is A SIN, YOU ARE GOING TO HAYELL!!!

What are you talking about? Do you judge a Christian solely because of what the Old Testament says? Is your view so black and white that you cannot see the entire picture?

Jesus did not abolish the moral and ethical laws that had been in effect from the time of Moses. He affirmed and expanded upon those principles, but He said obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44, etc.).

Nowhere does it say I will "go to hayell" for it.

Besides, you sense of of scripture is woefully flawed, sir.

Matthew 15:1-20 (Words of Jesus in red)

1Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands before they eat." 3He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.' 5 But you say that whoever tells father or mother, 'Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God,' then that person need not honor the father. 6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you make void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied rightly about you when he said: 8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching human precepts as doctrines.'" 10Then he called the crowd to him and said to them, "Listen and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles." 12Then the disciples approached and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?" 13He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if one blind person guides another, both will fall into a pit." 15But Peter said to him, "Explain this parable to us." 16Then he said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. 19 For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile." (NRSV)

 

[TemplarKormac]

Jesus taught to have mercy on everyone. Never heard him put gay folks down.
Time to get over this gay boogeyman, God hates fags routine folks.

Oh, since when have I put any of them down? I have stated repeatedly here in this thread I have friends who are gay, yet nobody listens. So hellbent those of you are to condemn me, you see not my acts of mercy and tolerance. You want me to have mercy on the homosexual, but none on my Christian brethren? What double standard is this you impose on me? Did not Jesus say have mercy on all men?

It's time for tolerance and mercy to work both ways, Gadawg.

From the book of Genesis onwards, God makes his opinion of homosexuality known, starting with the instance of the unholy cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. The wicked men of Sodom attempted a homosexual rape of two messengers from God who had come to visit Lot. As a result of this and other widespread wickedness, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in a storm of fire and brimstone.

In Leviticus he makes it known again:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (NKJV, Leviticus 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJV, Leviticus 20:13)

And in the New Testament, which fulfilled and literally consolidated the laws of Moses, removing the penalty of death as a result of the death and resurrection of Christ (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21), Jesus himself makes the will of his father known:

What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you. (TNIV, Mark 7:20-23)

In the book of First Corinthians the Apostle Paul makes God's will known:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

-1 Corinthians 6:9-11

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

-Romans 1:25-27

How can I go against that?

God does not hate the homosexual, he loves them, but he hates the sin. So too I, who will act in the same accordance. Being a Baptist, I assume this stance, same as the the rest of the Southern Baptist Convention:

"We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy - one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ."

 

[TemplarKormac]

I am not without mercy, but I will nary be deprived of my convictions for so long as I draw breath in this world. So it is said, so it shall be done.

 

[Noomi]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Jesus taught to have mercy on everyone. Never heard him put gay folks down.
Time to get over this gay boogeyman, God hates fags routine folks.

The only boogeyman is in your head.

 

[TemplarKormac]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

And Noomi, with all due respect, you are the least of all to judge. As I explained to RKM, they can bake the cake without the the burden of committing the sin, it is the delivery, the act of will, the intention of support that creates the sin, the final end which accomplishes the means.

No they were not forced, and you are correct, but they knew what would happen if they followed through and accepted their request. And if may I point out: Everyone here from you to I, have been hotheads about this issue. Should we also not be punished with ruin? Just as you believed this couple should have been according to you?

But especially in this contest, the bigger hotheads were those who refused to allow a couple the right to act on their conscience. Yes, it is quite petty that all of these arguments took over cake, but the overall principle remains. It is quite petty to put someone out of business because they hold different beliefs or religious convictions than you. Petty would be destroying the sakes and livelihoods of people who have the courage to stand up for their faith. Sad would be when a man of faith forsakes the values he holds dear in order to avoid the wrath of an unbeliever. Sad would be when all a man has to do is sacrifice his virtues for the sake of acceptance.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

I heard the conservatives won down there, you must be happy.

 

[Noomi]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

I heard the conservatives won down there, you must be happy.

We are not happy, we have a bunch of circus clowns in power and many of us are scratching our heads.

 

[Mertex]

So are you good with all discrimination in the public market?

Do you honestly believe the bakers had a problem getting bake goods? Proof?

No. But I will not allow for this kind of religious oppression either. Because what it boils down to is that a religious couple were not to protect their beliefs and avoid committing a taboo among their religion, hence religious oppression light.

Do you honestly believe you can make a Christian sin against his own faith? On purpose, with him knowing and refusing?

First I don't agree with the convoluted logic that producing or selling a product is the same as participating in the use of the product.

Yes I do think you can make a Christian sin. Clearly from this thread that is a task that is all to easy.

Ha,ha, yes, in this thread all you have to do is disagree with some of them and they will insult and slander you.

 

[Noomi]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

And Noomi, with all due respect, you are the least of all to judge. As I explained to RKM, they can bake the cake without the the burden of committing the sin, it is the delivery, the act of will, the intention of support that creates the sin, the final end which accomplishes the means.

No they were not forced, and you are correct, but they knew what would happen if they followed through and accepted their request. And if may I point out: Everyone here from you to I, have been hotheads about this issue. Should we also not be punished with ruin? Just as you believed this couple should have been according to you?

But especially in this contest, the bigger hotheads were those who refused to allow a couple the right to act on their conscience. Yes, it is quite petty that all of these arguments took over cake, but the overall principle remains. It is quite petty to put someone out of business because they hold different beliefs or religious convictions than you. Petty would be destroying the sakes and livelihoods of people who have the courage to stand up for their faith. Sad would be when a man of faith forsakes the values he holds dear in order to avoid the wrath of an unbeliever. Sad would be when all a man has to do is sacrifice his virtues for the sake of acceptance.

The cake didn't have to be delivered, it could be picked up from the store. No sinning, nothing at all.

No one put the bakery out of business, they did that themselves.
Keep in mind that NOWHERE on their website does it say that they won't bake cakes for homosexual weddings. They say they bake cakes for ALL occasions. If they don't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, state that on the website, and in the store.

Problem solved.

 

[Mertex]

Saul Alinsky must be proud of people like you. There is religious oppression in the way liberals like you shame other people of faith for standing up for what they believe in.

Standing up for bigotry? That's not even Christian.

This whole thing about liberals being "tolerant", "equal" and "just" is more of a crock than anything else. When you accept the religious man as much as gay one, you will be deserving of such titles, not before.

I find that Liberals are more tolerant, equal and just than most of the right-wing extremists who try to use religion as a cover for their bigotry.

What religious belief is the Oregon state law violating when it tells business owners they have to treat every customer the same?

There is no religious belief being violated. The bakers were being bigots, they got what they deserved.

I have noticed that bigots always think other bigots are fair.

Here the bigots just think that the bigot bakers were unfairly treated when they actually got what they deserved.

 

[Mertex]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

And Noomi, with all due respect, you are the least of all to judge. As I explained to RKM, they can bake the cake without the the burden of committing the sin, it is the delivery, the act of will, the intention of support that creates the sin, the final end which accomplishes the means.

No they were not forced, and you are correct, but they knew what would happen if they followed through and accepted their request. And if may I point out: Everyone here from you to I, have been hotheads about this issue. Should we also not be punished with ruin? Just as you believed this couple should have been according to you?

But especially in this contest, the bigger hotheads were those who refused to allow a couple the right to act on their conscience. Yes, it is quite petty that all of these arguments took over cake, but the overall principle remains. It is quite petty to put someone out of business because they hold different beliefs or religious convictions than you. Petty would be destroying the sakes and livelihoods of people who have the courage to stand up for their faith. Sad would be when a man of faith forsakes the values he holds dear in order to avoid the wrath of an unbeliever. Sad would be when all a man has to do is sacrifice his virtues for the sake of acceptance.

The cake didn't have to be delivered, it could be picked up from the store. No sinning, nothing at all.

No one put the bakery out of business, they did that themselves.
Keep in mind that NOWHERE on their website does it say that they won't bake cakes for homosexual weddings. They say they bake cakes for ALL occasions. If they don't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, state that on the website, and in the store.

Problem solved.

No, they really can't in Oregon. Oregon has a state law that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, and advertising discrimination based on sexual orientation would have gotten them in trouble a lot sooner - might have saved the gay couple a trip to their defunct bakery, though.

 

[Noomi]

And Noomi, with all due respect, you are the least of all to judge. As I explained to RKM, they can bake the cake without the the burden of committing the sin, it is the delivery, the act of will, the intention of support that creates the sin, the final end which accomplishes the means.

No they were not forced, and you are correct, but they knew what would happen if they followed through and accepted their request. And if may I point out: Everyone here from you to I, have been hotheads about this issue. Should we also not be punished with ruin? Just as you believed this couple should have been according to you?

But especially in this contest, the bigger hotheads were those who refused to allow a couple the right to act on their conscience. Yes, it is quite petty that all of these arguments took over cake, but the overall principle remains. It is quite petty to put someone out of business because they hold different beliefs or religious convictions than you. Petty would be destroying the sakes and livelihoods of people who have the courage to stand up for their faith. Sad would be when a man of faith forsakes the values he holds dear in order to avoid the wrath of an unbeliever. Sad would be when all a man has to do is sacrifice his virtues for the sake of acceptance.

The cake didn't have to be delivered, it could be picked up from the store. No sinning, nothing at all.

No one put the bakery out of business, they did that themselves.
Keep in mind that NOWHERE on their website does it say that they won't bake cakes for homosexual weddings. They say they bake cakes for ALL occasions. If they don't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, state that on the website, and in the store.

Problem solved.

No, they really can't in Oregon. Oregon has a state law that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, and advertising discrimination based on sexual orientation would have gotten them in trouble a lot sooner - might have saved the gay couple a trip to their defunct bakery, though.

Why is it okay for churches, though? Everyone knows that a church won't marry a gay couple, why the different rules?

 

[Gracie]

Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.

This ^

 

[Noomi]

Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.

This ^

Then wasn't it the right of the gay couple to use their free speech and call for a boycott of the bakery?