China is going to rule the world economically, militarily and via global influence. Should the West try to ensure they don't repeat our mistakes?

[shockedcanadian]

China‘s AI is terrible. It’s all smoke and mirrors. Anyone interested in the issue should check out China Fact Checkers on YouTube. They’re a couple of guys who spent 10 and 14 years in China, traveling all over the place. They left recently because of CCP crackdowns on anything they could remotely considered embarrassing to China, like how they cut corners and their infrastructure crumbles, that there’s no real rule of law, that environmental concerns are ignored and much more.

We don't have rule of law in Canada either and much of the weaker minds in America, some paper thin fascist "conservatives", want to emulate us.

You know what a Right is in Canada? "Right this way subject..."

 

[konradv]

We don't have rule of law in Canada either and much of the weaker minds in America, some paper thin fascist "conservatives", want to emulate us.

You know what a Right is in Canada? "Right this way subject..."

Don’t sell Canada short. You wouldn’t be making such a foolish statement, if you really understood what’s happening in China.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Clearly, Canada has a massive, unaccountable, soul destroying Security Industrial Complex. Many states in the U.S do as well. Should N America accept the inevitable and work to ensure they don't follow our follies and destroy ther nations soul as we have in some places? I believe this is the position European leaders are taking and for the future of humanity we should probably consider this position as well. Work to usher in a Renaissance Period in China as best as possible for the sake of everyone. They are an old civilization but have never had the type of global power/influence and vast technological advances they have now and will havenin the future.

Canada, at a more alarming rate than America, is selling off it's best assets to China.
Take the paper industry. Canada was a dominate player in the paper market, especially in America.
Canada limited Chinese pulp. Trudeau doubled the allowable amount since he became Prime Minister. When he took office in 2015, China was only allowed to sell about $400m in pulp.
By 2020 that number reached $680m.
More alarming however is APP (Asian Pulp and Paper) owns $4.2 billion in structured debts for Canadian mills.

 

[Kruska]

Well, the policies haven't proven to fail miserbly, America was by far the most powerful economic force in the early 21st Century. The majority of the failures have come in just over the last 30 years or so.

So the policies have failed miserably due to failed and miserable governments.

The West, lead by America, helped make China the power house it is today. Even the Chinese citizens know this and they thank the U.S.

You are absolutely wrong on this - especially the US part. The USA did provide a huge market for China - that's about it.

There should be an expansion of civil liberties there.

China will never do that to any extend as in Western countries - because that is exactly why ALL Western countries are screwed up.

Take rightwinger, as the perfect example - he simply hates China and therefore ignores any facts - since Lefty&Libs desperately need a democracy to get their fingers into politics so that they can finally fuck up things.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

.China will never do that to any extent as in Western countries - because that is exactly why ALL Western countries are screwed up.

So you think China won’t adopt “liberal democracy” because it everywhere screws up society. Are you arguing for an authoritarian undemocratic society like China, Russia, North Korea, or what? I get you may prefer Trump to Biden, but exactly what sort of “non-democratic” system do you think would be best for West Europe, the U.S.A., Ukraine, Taiwan, etc.?

 

[Kruska]

So you think China won’t adopt “liberal democracy” because it everywhere screws up society. Are you arguing for an authoritarian undemocratic society like China, Russia, North Korea, or what? I get you may prefer Trump to Biden, but exactly what sort of “non-democratic” system do you think would be best for West Europe, the U.S.A., Ukraine, Taiwan, etc.?

Democracy doesn't even work in Western countries (to the benefit of the people - just to some woke and elite circles) - left aside Switzerland being the only country on this planet with a true democracy. So it's up to Europeans or Americans (population) to decide what they believe as to what can actually realize their dreams and wishes.
And it is none of Europe's or the USA's business as to what political systems are implemented in Asia, Middle-East, Africa or South-America. None of the others elected them as spokesmen for the rest of the world, and certainly not toward their own countries.

As for your stint towards Trump or Biden - none of these two IMO, is anywhere near a qualification, attitude or character to run a country such as the USA.

Taiwan is under the one country two systems rule - and Beijing does not interfere. Even when the lesbian and gay infested present Taiwan government, implemented an LGBTq ruling (BTW the only one in entire Asia) and not via a plebiscite - but as usual in democracies - simply instituted by the ruling government, Beijing did not interfere nor protest.

Taiwan and it's people know very well, that independence (at least not for the next 30 years) will NEVER be tolerated by Beijing. As I had stated in other threads before - China was making considerable improvements towards implementing a more democratic basis setup - till the West took it's chance in regards to inciting the HK population and spread nonsensical and false information in regards to Xinjiang. Upon that the entire democratization process went sour and was even partially reverted.

I am absolutely in favor of a ruling system as it is practiced in e.g. Singapore or China. The moment an autocratic system goes sour - due to e.g. an excessive dictatorial approach - sooner or later the own population will revolt - they don't need Lefties&Libs from the West to do that.

 

[Ringo]

Imagine believing the US should "save" Asia from China after the US killed countless millions of people in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, the Philippines and Korea.....

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Democracy doesn't even work in Western countries (to the benefit of the people - just to some woke and elite circles) - left aside Switzerland being the only country on this planet with a true democracy. So it's up to Europeans or Americans (population) to decide what they believe as to what can actually realize their dreams and wishes.
And it is none of Europe's or the USA's business as to what political systems are implemented in Asia, Middle-East, Africa or South-America. None of the others elected them as spokesmen for the rest of the world, and certainly not toward their own countries.

As for your stint towards Trump or Biden - none of these two IMO, is anywhere near a qualification, attitude or character to run a country such as the USA.

Taiwan is under the one country two systems rule - and Beijing does not interfere. Even when the lesbian and gay infested present Taiwan government, implemented an LGBTq ruling (BTW the only one in entire Asia) and not via a plebiscite - but as usual in democracies - simply instituted by the ruling government, Beijing did not interfere nor protest.

Taiwan and it's people know very well, that independence (at least not for the next 30 years) will NEVER be tolerated by Beijing. As I had stated in other threads before - China was making considerable improvements towards implementing a more democratic basis setup - till the West took it's chance in regards to inciting the HK population and spread nonsensical and false information in regards to Xinjiang. Upon that the entire democratization process went sour and was even partially reverted.

I am absolutely in favor of a ruling system as it is practiced in e.g. Singapore or China. The moment an autocratic system goes sour - due to e.g. an excessive dictatorial approach - sooner or later the own population will revolt - they don't need Lefties&Libs from the West to do that.

Notwithstanding all your digressions about China, Taiwan and world problems, and you references to U.S. contemporary cultural issues — (are you a citizen here?) — it is clear you want a one party one man dictatorship in the U.S.A. — perhaps like XinJinping has imposed on China, or Putin has in Russia. Thank you but … NO!

All your b.s. about U.S. hypocrisy or the U.S. thinking it is “saving China” & the world … has nothing to do with what I wrote or asked of you. I am an old anti-imperialist and have no illusions about U.S. conduct internationally — but I have also met your type many times before.

You support systems that are fundamentally dictatorial as opposed to representative liberal democratic Republics. Your boring defense of one party and one man dictatorships is old hat. I don’t know if you are a communist — or just a rightwing apologist for Russian or Chinese authoritarianism.

My guess is your hatred for “liberal capitalism” and the U.S. in particular is so deep, and your training and loyalty to another country like Russia is so strong, you just automatically choose to support authoritarianism as a system. Authoritarian powers like China do sometimes feel pressure to stand against U.S.-led Western “liberal democratic capitalism.” The U.S. empire has often acted in shameful ways. But in general representative and democratic political systems are far superior to dictatorial systems, and offer the best chance for societies to continue developing.

You support dictatorship over a representative liberal democratic Republic. Your boring defense of one party and one man dictatorships is old hat to me. I don’t know if you are a communist — or just a rightwing apologist for Russian or Chinese authoritarianism.

Despite all our problems here and many historic errors of our leaders, even today most people with any understanding of reality envy our hard-fought-for personal & political freedoms, our economic success, and most would much prefer to live in a state of freedom with “rule of law” and with the wealth typical of advanced democratic societies than as a slave to a one man or one party dictatorship.

You “absolutely favor” the system in China? I lived there for many years and while I appreciate and respect the immense hard work and success of China in the last generation I think only a fool would support the reactionary consolidation of personal power under XiJinping.

Xi has actually written himself into the Chinese Constitution! He has stopped and reversed the once deeply hoped for reforms of the Chinese people, and his “personality cult” is already harming prospects for a better future there. You are talking nonsense.

 

[Kruska]

Notwithstanding all your digressions about China, Taiwan and world problems, and you references to U.S. contemporary cultural issues — (are you a citizen here?) — it is clear you want a one party one man dictatorship in the U.S.A. — perhaps like XinJinping has imposed on China, or Putin has in Russia. Thank you but … NO!

I never advocated for a one man dictator ship in the USA - the US is a Western democratic country since more then 250 years. They just need to get an own idea as to how a true democracy is supposed to look like and get rid of their present corrupt and manipulated democracy. Which will NEVER happen.

The rest of your post is the usual dribble of people who "supposedly have been to China" - still can't speak or read Chinese, hung around in vast majority with glue-less Westerners or democracy babbling Chinese simpletons, (less then 10% of the population), can't even use chopsticks properly and got no idea about Asian or Chinese culture/mentality.

Tell me - when was China in the past 2000 years ever democratic? But according to unworldly and naive people like you - the Chinese population needs democracy?
It's about the last thing China, or any non Western country needs.

As the Chinese or oversea Cantonese say - mind your own business first, Gweilo - 格韦洛

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I never advocated for a one man dictator ship in the USA - the US is a Western democratic country since more then 250 years. They just need to get an own idea as to how a true democracy is supposed to look like and get rid of their present corrupt and manipulated democracy. Which will NEVER happen.

The rest of your post is the usual dribble of people who "supposedly have been to China" - still can't speak or read Chinese, hung around in vast majority with glue-less Westerners or democracy babbling Chinese simpletons, (less then 10% of the population), can't even use chopsticks properly and got no idea about Asian or Chinese culture/mentality.

Tell me - when was China in the past 2000 years ever democratic? But according to unworldly and naive people like you - the Chinese population needs democracy?
It's about the last thing China, or any non Western country needs.

As the Chinese or oversea Cantonese say - mind your own business first, Gweilo - 格韦洛

我的普通话现在差多了，可是我有很多家庭人还在中国。以后我自己住在中国八年多，所以我真是比你关于中国有知识 。现在我是一个老人在美国。

你真是太过分，也是地道的 ”老外” 和 没知识的人。

 

[Kruska]

我的普通话现在差多了，可是我有很多家庭人还在中国。以后我自己住在中国八年多，所以我真是比你关于中国有知识 。现在我是一个老人在美国。

你真是太过分，也是地道的 ”老外” 和 没知识的人。

No one in China cares about your 8 years in China - or about the content of your "supposedly acquired knowledge", especially not from "bananas".

I spend more then 40 years in Asia, 15+ years in Germany, the USA and other western countries - I grew up in Asia from age 3-19. And I have been working with the Chinese and other Asian governments for more then 25 years.
All you can account for is some democratic babble - that has no impact or shares any recognition by the Chinese population. And citing a handful of "unhappy" Chinese citizens (most likely all family members of yours) doesn't portrait China in any realistic way. I am married with a Chinese lady and we have a lovely daughter, and none absolutely none amongst our relatives would give a cent about democracy - same goes for dozens of friends (many very rich Chinese among them) - with practical experience and investments in democratic countries).

Yes, especially the rich ones constantly complain about the decline or increasing hardship to make profits, some of them literally hate Xi - but none absolutely none is asking for democracy or believes that democracy would be the better system.

Anyone who has been to China, knows that people never talk about politics in regards to wanting or respecting democracy - (fact is they laugh about it) It is only outsiders and some Honkies that talk about democracy in China and love to confront Chinese citizens with their "democratic views". If Chinese citizens are unhappy about whatever - they demonstrate openly and publicly - and are not hindered or disrupted by security forces as long as everything stays peaceful. More then 80% of the Chinese population are in support of the government - even if they disagree on certain issues (see the previous quarantine issue) or are presently unhappy in view of the present economic situation - because they realize that they and China are still way better of then those democratic countries.

Show me a single democratic government that can claim an 80%+ support by their population.

Fact is that implemented sanctions by democratic countries - are clearly and irrefutably interpreted by the Chinese citizens as the tools of suppression and showing the true face of democratic nations trying to hinder China's progress.

Now who in China would be stupid or irrational enough to believe in the "values" of democracy - that are used to suppress and harm their country? Only errant fools like you.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

So, Kruska , since you want to publicize personal stuff in English, were you working for the Russian government in Asia or what?

Because frankly I was there as a mature adult studying and learning and without an agenda, and my experience there with mainland Chinese people was not with officials or big shots with “guanxi” (political pull) … and I think you are full of shit.

I never said I think the Chinese people usually speak out or demonstrate freely for democracy (how could they?) nor did I ever say they want anything resembling the presently tragically divided and laughable American-style two-party “democracy.” But they definitely do want more freedoms, more democratic rights, free speech to expose corruption, freedom to commemorate Tiananman once a year (if that was their thing), freedom not to have their internet constantly “peacefully” censored, freedom to watch foreign TV and films, etc., etc.

Most of the people — not all of them — but most of the people there I knew now laugh bitterly at the daily news that begin with two or three boring reports and speeches about or by the new personality cult leader XiJinping. He is the new BoXilai.

The stories go on and on. My contacts in China were mostly middle class people, students and yes, some openly small-scale capitalist types. Not just in Beijing, either. Unfortunately, their hopes and dreams from the period before Xi are now gone, and they cannot even discuss them with me on WeChat anymore. Even my own family members there cannot speak freely. Finally, I never lived in Western neighborhoods, or in diplomatic or businessmen’s enclaves either — as I suppose you did — but always in solidly Chinese lower middle class neighborhoods.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

P.S.
Your crude racial reference to “bananas” (“Yellow” Chinese on the outside but “white” on the inside) tells us all a lot about your essential racialist or reactionary nationalist world view. Thank you for providing us with this added insight.

 

[Quentin111]

The US will maintain its leadership for at least another 40 years. The US economy is over $20 trillion. China's economy is about $14 trillion. The US has about 6,000 nuclear warheads. China has about 350.

 

[Kruska]

...., were you working for the Russian government in Asia or what?

Idiotic try, and your following statements simply proof that you got no idea whatsoever, about the true and actual situation in China. And no, I do not live in Diplomatic or Western quarters - why should I?
"Bananas" isn't racist at all - it's a common term used in China to describe those that look Chinese but behold a Western mentality and have subjected themselves to Western culture and propaganda. Namely those that propagate ultimate bullshit like: the Chinese people want to "commemorate Tiananmen" you are totally off your rocker.

 

[Kruska]

The US will maintain its leadership for at least another 40 years. The US economy is over $20 trillion. China's economy is about $14 trillion. The US has about 6,000 nuclear warheads. China has about 350.

Keep dreaming and have a sound sleep.

 

[Ringo]

The US economy is over $20 trillion.

And 32 trillions in debt...

 

[justoffal]

China may pass us economically but they have almost five times the population to support

Militarily, they are nowhere close to the US who extends military power around the world and has the worlds most powerful Navy.

They are gaining global influence but not nearly what the Western Powers can put together

It looks like collapse for them in the next 10 years or so.

 

[rightwinger]

And 32 trillions in debt...

At what interest rate?

 

[Ringo]

China is simply not ready not only for a "hot" war, but also for a "cold" war. There are gaping holes in the technological chain, which China itself cannot close. They are making efforts, and not small ones at that. But they cannot.
And China acts in the paradigm that a break with the U.S. coalition is a very likely scenario, but will postpone it until the last opportunity.
Well, in China, too, there is not a weak party of those who believe that for the sake of their personal affairs and interests you can surrender any interests of the state. They are, of course, against any confrontation.
Plus the understanding that at the moment, no matter what anyone wants, the dollar is money, and the yuan is not. The U.S. has the ability to hit China's economy hard and almost unanswered.
All of these issues are being addressed at the state level in China, but so far they are far from being resolved.