Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist

[MHunterB]

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

 

[MHunterB]

The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books


This is interesting, a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?

It is very clear from the text of this book you've quoted, that the 'influence' in Yemen was a Yemeni LAW which required the conversion from Judaism to Islam of ay orphan unmarried girl who had not yet reached 'majority' age.

I think it's very obvious that this situation is a result of that Yemeni 'law' - and not of any cultural or religious preference of the Jewish Yemenite community.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Life was difficult for women. And I expect life for women in Yemen remains difficult.

"In times of mourning (and these were not rare in Yemen), the women got together (they sat in a separate room duringshivah) and more easily provided comfort to one another. Mortality was high and the women shared each other’s sorrows, so many having unfortunately gone through the same experiences. Infant mortality reached dreadful proportions. It was not uncommon for a woman to give birth to twelve children and see only two reach adulthood. A special function thus emerged for some Yemenite women: official mourners. Referred to also as “wailing women,” they had the unique task of leading the women’s crying during the first three days of the*shivah. This performance channeled the other women in the group and focused their weeping.*..."

"The Jewish community of Yemen was extremely conservative, both in its everyday lifestyle and in its Sabbath, holiday and ritual observances and celebrations. Accordingly, tradition required that a woman’s life would also be carefully circumscribed from infancy to maturity."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

 

[irosie91]

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

My mother-in-law was married at---(probably----birth records in yemen did not actually
exist) age 12------because her father died when she was 11. She was married to
save her from the DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW ----as marge noted. Death rates were
high in Yemen------and the dhimmi orphan law was the gross horror that galvanized
early marriages for BOTH girls and boys----- my father-in-law was probably about 16---
which some people here also consider a "child marriage" Now for the good news----
right after they married -------they began their escape from Yemen-----it took many
years-------from early 1930s----to early 1940s since it was illegal for jews to emigrate
from that country-----hubby was born about one year before they finally made it out of
that hell-hole---------he is one of ten. The marriage turned out to be quite a romance.
Because of the dhimmi orphan law ----all kinds of unusual marriages were made
in Yemen. Such arrangements rendered legal----MOVING ABOUT and the attainment of
an alternate "legal guardian" ------and confusing
the enforcement of the "dhimmi orphan law"

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."



The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books

 

[irosie91]

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.

What were the other reasons for "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with 40 year old man bedding an eight year
old girl? A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
for ANYTHING written by MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
He even disallowed a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
contact (see "Guide for the Perplexed")

Regarding "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof. Hindu informants-----who grew up in
remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
together------they barely interacted with each other at all. Interestingly----he regretted
the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
if he had the opportunity

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

My mother-in-law was married at---(probably----birth records in yemen did not actually
exist) age 12------because her father died when she was 11. She was married to
save her from the DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW ----as marge noted. Death rates were
high in Yemen------and the dhimmi orphan law was the gross horror that galvanized
early marriages for BOTH girls and boys----- my father-in-law was probably about 16---
which some people here also consider a "child marriage" Now for the good news----
right after they married -------they began their escape from Yemen-----it took many
years-------from early 1930s----to early 1940s since it was illegal for jews to emigrate
from that country-----hubby was born about one year before they finally made it out of
that hell-hole---------he is one of ten. The marriage turned out to be quite a romance.
Because of the dhimmi orphan law ----all kinds of unusual marriages were made
in Yemen. Such arrangements rendered legal----MOVING ABOUT and the attainment of
an alternate "legal guardian" ------and confusing
the enforcement of the "dhimmi orphan law"

My conclusion is that child marriages in Yemen are primarily cultural. And it certainly seems to be a place where life is difficult for women, whether the women are Jewish or Muslim or a different religion.

I was reading words of the songs they sang.

"I do not want an old man

Nor his money.

I wish to have a young one

To play with and to kiss!

I do not want an old man

A broken scythe handle is he,

I wish to have a young one

To squeeze all the bones in me.

* * *

Why is it, my cousin-husband,

You are subjecting me to accepting another woman as your second wife?

If the cause is beauty,

I am as pretty as the moon and the stars.

If the reason is my locks,

Then I have two hundred braids.

Is it for children?

I have borne you two sons already.

If it is my character, ..."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

 

[MHunterB]

"The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."



The quote as given above is incomplete: it continues IMMEDIATELY as follows:

"For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen"

So it is obvious in the context of the sentences immediately preceeding it in the same paragraph, that this 'ONE MAJOR REASON' is what the author cites as the reason for different 'customs' between Aden and Yemen.

It is the SAME paragraph: by rules of grammar and composition, it is a single concept being discussed. And to leave off the second half was a display of disgusting intellectual dishonesty.

 

[irosie91]

The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books


This is interesting, a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?

It is very clear from the text of this book you've quoted, that the 'influence' in Yemen was a Yemeni LAW which required the conversion from Judaism to Islam of ay orphan unmarried girl who had not yet reached 'majority' age.

I think it's very obvious that this situation is a result of that Yemeni 'law' - and not of any cultural or religious preference of the Jewish Yemenite community.

Small correction Marge-----both girls and boys-----orphaned by the loss of a FATHER----
(mother does not count) were liable to the dhimmi orphan law. In the case of my
mother-in-law---------she lost her father at age 11------her mother was still living----something had to be done to protect her from legal confiscation -----and ---what amounts
to slavery and forced conversion to islam. The answer was both MARRIAGE and----flight.

the dhimmi orphan law-----is SHARIAH ----not restricted to yemen. The Ottomans
rejected the idea --------but Yemen refused to comply. The dhimmi orphan law renders
the enslavement and forced conversion of SUDANESE kids as soon as any sudani manages to kill the child's father.

now and then-----a victim of the dhimmi orphan law-------pops out of the woodwork ---------those cases had to be kept under wraps to protect the people still there. ---there
are always-------people left over. especially in a land full of nooks and crannies
like Yemen

 

[MHunterB]

Yes, child marriages of Jews in Yemen were 'cultural' - but it was the 'culture' of the majority and its law of forced conversion for non-majority orphans.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.

What were the other reasons for "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with 40 year old man bedding an eight year
old girl? A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
for ANYTHING written by MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
He even disallowed a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
contact (see "Guide for the Perplexed")

Regarding "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof. Hindu informants-----who grew up in
remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
together------they barely interacted with each other at all. Interestingly----he regretted
the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
if he had the opportunity

The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.

 

[Roudy]

The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).

Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.

Is 13 an Adult?

Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.

Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, 18 is the proper age for marriage and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

Case closed.

That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.

Then show me an instance where Jews are marrying off young girls at prepubescent age today, and they use religion as an authority and in their civil laws, as Muslims do. I'm still waiting.

It just doesn't exist because all this is, are LIES and false propaganda to hide an inconvenient truth.

 

[Roudy]

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

The reason for this practice is right there in the quote: to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.

Yemeni society is based on Islamic shariah law. So the Jews (and all other non Muslims) had to live like the Muslims do. I don't understand the point being made here, other than it makes Muslims look even worse in that not only did THEY believe in child marriages, they even forced the non Muslims to do the same. Wow, what a revelation, Muslims forcing their religion and way of life upon others.

 

[irosie91]

The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).

Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.

Is 13 an Adult?

Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.

Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, 18 is the proper age for marriage and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

Case closed.

That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.

I got bad news for you sherri-----the Mishnah is not the talmud

what is it that you imagine "the talmud says" ??? Your comment is so vague that
it is meaningless------what is it you imagine is "obviously interpreted differently today
and in the past" ? Your abilty to figure out what is expressed in the talmud is even
worse than is your ability to understand that which is expressed in the New Testament.

I have good news for you------you need not guess--------the talmud has been
the subject of RECORDED ANALYSIS for more than 2500 years--------continuously.
Thus it is possible for you to actually read about that which you imagine "changed"

I cannot find your link to "child marriages" in Israel-------what are you calling a
"child marriage"??? --------is the marriage between two sixteen year olds
a "child marriage"? its legal in Maryland. You are off topic----the topic of
this thread is ---------"a 40 year old bedded an eight year old and killed her doing it"
Just how this case is considered in Yemen----which is a shariah adherent society-----
will be demonstrated by the actually actions taken to the legal system over there.

 

[MHunterB]

OF COURSE it's 'cultural' - but it's the culture of the shari'a -ruled state.

Ignoring the obvious effects of a law which steals young children away from widowed mothers is an inexcusable lapse in scholarship.

No respectable student would attempt to deny that Mormon culture was impacted by the admission of Utah as a State: the situation of the Jewish community in Yemen is similar.

Although the LDS has largely steered away from the blatant racism - equating light skin color with 'enlightenment' and obedience to GOD - found in the Book of Mormon, that has all been fairly recent 'revelation', since the 1970's. They used to have rules that limited the religious offices which a 'nonwhite' Mormon could hold......

Here is another condition which is extremely rare among 'white' women - but which is endemic among women of color in many nations in Africa and some in Asia: The Fistula Foundation : Help give a woman a new life

It is ENTIRELY preventable - and ENTIRELY 'cultural'.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.

There is no law forcing child marriage on people.

That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.

 

[irosie91]

That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.

What were the other reasons for "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with 40 year old man bedding an eight year
old girl? A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
for ANYTHING written by MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
He even disallowed a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
contact (see "Guide for the Perplexed")

Regarding "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof. Hindu informants-----who grew up in
remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
together------they barely interacted with each other at all. Interestingly----he regretted
the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
if he had the opportunity

The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.

wrong again Sherri------google around a bit more-----especially consult SNOPES
---the story does indeed appear to be true-.. Since I have---thru marriage----relatives
who did LIVE IN YEMEN-------I can assure you that it is consistent with that which
goes on over there ----------child marriages amongst the jews of yemen-----ie marriages
involving VERY YOUNG children---------like eight years old------were done to get around
the dhimmi orphan law and involved both girls and boys since both were liable to that
barbaric law which is part and parcel of the shariah code.

Typical age of marriage for boys in traditional judaism -----the thing the jews of
yemen do-----is eighteen for boys and post menarche for girls Menarche for
girls in Yemen was probably averaging about age 14. If you do not know why
I cite the age 14 do not hesitate to ask-------it is a matter of human
physiology. Yemeni girls in Israel have an earlier menarche----and tend to be
a LOT taller than -----their mothers (in fact they tend to be taller than
their fathers)

Marriages in classical shariah societies like Yemen and saudi arabia typically include
lots of marriages of grown men to little girls ---------some of them are not really
marriages -----those confiscated kids under the dhimmi orphan laws do not
actually constitute real marriages ------It is more like slavery. Classical shariah law
allows unlimited sex with "OWNED WOMEN" Saudis who buy little girls in
Pakistan and India and Indonesia------do not necessarily consider the little girls
one of their four allowed wives

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

What were the other reasons for "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with 40 year old man bedding an eight year
old girl? A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
for ANYTHING written by MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
He even disallowed a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
contact (see "Guide for the Perplexed")

Regarding "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof. Hindu informants-----who grew up in
remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
together------they barely interacted with each other at all. Interestingly----he regretted
the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
if he had the opportunity

The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.

wrong again Sherri------google around a bit more-----especially consult SNOPES
---the story does indeed appear to be true-.. Since I have---thru marriage----relatives
who did LIVE IN YEMEN-------I can assure you that it is consistent with that which
goes on over there ----------child marriages amongst the jews of yemen-----ie marriages
involving VERY YOUNG children---------like eight years old------were done to get around
the dhimmi orphan law and involved both girls and boys since both were liable to that
barbaric law which is part and parcel of the shariah code.

Typical age of marriage for boys in traditional judaism -----the thing the jews of
yemen do-----is eighteen for boys and post menarche for girls Menarche for
girls in Yemen was probably averaging about age 14. If you do not know why
I cite the age 14 do not hesitate to ask-------it is a matter of human
physiology. Yemeni girls in Israel have an earlier menarche----and tend to be
a LOT taller than -----their mothers (in fact they tend to be taller than
their fathers)

Marriages in classical shariah societies like Yemen and saudi arabia typically include
lots of marriages of grown men tp little girls ---------some of them are not really
marriages -----those confiscated kids under the dhimmi orphan laws do not
actually constitute real marriages ------It is more like slavery. Classical shariah law
allows unlimited sex with "OWNED WOMEN" Saudis who buy little girls in
Pakistan and India and Indonesia------do not necessarily consider the little girls
one of their four allowed wives

Let us see your proof the story in the OP is true, the child it was about already was interviewed and said it was a lie.

I am not denying child marriage happens in Yemen, I simply point out it is explained by the culture of Yemen.

And for anyone who tries to use these horrible things happening to children to demonize another's religion, you simply disclose yourself as a member of a hate group.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).

Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.

Is 13 an Adult?

Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.

Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, 18 is the proper age for marriage and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

Case closed.

That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.

I got bad news for you sherri-----the Mishnah is not the talmud

what is it that you imagine "the talmud says" ??? Your comment is so vague that
it is meaningless------what is it you imagine is "obviously interpreted differently today
and in the past" ? Your abilty to figure out what is expressed in the talmud is even
worse than is your ability to understand that which is expressed in the New Testament.

I have good news for you------you need not guess--------the talmud has been
the subject of RECORDED ANALYSIS for more than 2500 years--------continuously.
Thus it is possible for you to actually read about that which you imagine "changed"

I cannot find your link to "child marriages" in Israel-------what are you calling a
"child marriage"??? --------is the marriage between two sixteen year olds
a "child marriage"? its legal in Maryland. You are off topic----the topic of
this thread is ---------"a 40 year old bedded an eight year old and killed her doing it"
Just how this case is considered in Yemen----which is a shariah adherent society-----
will be demonstrated by the actually actions taken to the legal system over there.

The*Talmud*(/ˈtɑːlmʊd,*-məd,*ˈtæl-/;*Hebrew:*תַּלְמוּד*talmūd"instruction, learning", from a*root*lmd*"teach, study") is a central text of Rabbinic*Judaism. It is also traditionally referred to as*Shas*(ש״&#1505, aHebrew*abbreviation of*shisha sedarim, the "six orders". The Talmud has two components. The first part is the*Mishnah*(Hebrew: משנה, c. 200 CE), the written compendium of Judaism's*Oral Torah*(Torah meaning "Instruction", "Teaching" in Hebrew). The second part is theGemara*(c. 500 CE), an elucidation of the Mishnah and related*Tannaiticwritings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the*Jewish Bible.


Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And one more time, the story in the OP did not happen. You want to claim it happened, you prove it.