Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist

[Roudy]

I'm not the one blaming poverty. I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason. Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in. Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor. I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds. You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.

Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.

Do you mean allow as in legal ages of consent or allow as in age of consent is poorly enforced and as a result they have high rates of child marriages?

Much of this was gone into earlier in the this thread.

Worldwide ages of consent vary: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XzY8i9ULsXwVqMg&bvm=bv.52434380,d.dmg&cad=rja

Mexico and Angola have the lowest legal age of consent (for females): 12. They are also Christian majority countries.

Yet according to your UNICEF child marriage is most prevalent among Muslim majority countries, and they cite Islamic and shariah law. Why do you choose to cite certain facts and data and totally omit the most relevant and damning ones?

 

[Roudy]

The main cause is poverty. Islam is secondary.

You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here. A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor. I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child? Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?

I'm not the one blaming poverty. I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason. Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in. Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor. I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds. You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.

Now you're spreading disinformation. Did you totally forget my post that indicated that even in India, they passed a law banning marriage under the age of 18, which is acceptable to the Hindu majority, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, and Jews, and the only people that keep doing it are the 300 million Indian Muslims, citing a religious right to do so? Which is again, why it is most prevalent in India among Indian Muslims?

More damning data omitted in favor of disinformation and whitewashing.

 

[Roudy]

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

So...all that shows is that some Rabbis, like some priests, ministers, immams take advantage of their calling to molest children.

That is right, like some fathers arrange child marriages for their daughters. They include fathers from different religions and cultures. Not all of them do it, fathers that is. Most of us see this conduct as morally wrong, and also the conduct of priests and rabbis and imams who abuse kids. There are things we can most of us agree about, I think.

By the way Sherri, did you ask your Iranian Muslim friend if the reason men are allowed to marry 9 year olds in Iran was due to poverty, or Islam?

I'm holding my breath here, you know, and I can't do it much longer.

 

[Coyote]

Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.

Do you mean allow as in legal ages of consent or allow as in age of consent is poorly enforced and as a result they have high rates of child marriages?

Much of this was gone into earlier in the this thread.

Worldwide ages of consent vary: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XzY8i9ULsXwVqMg&bvm=bv.52434380,d.dmg&cad=rja

Mexico and Angola have the lowest legal age of consent (for females): 12. They are also Christian majority countries.

Yet according to your UNICEF child marriage is most prevalent among Muslim majority countries, and they cite Islamic and shariah law. Why do you choose to cite certain facts and data and totally omit the most relevant and damning ones?

The same reason you do. UNICEF also cites poverty and lack of education as among the key drivers of child marriages.

The top twenty countries with the highest rates are spread out between religions: http://www.usmessageboard.com/7850877-post437.html

If you truly want to look at religion, prevalence and proportion: there are only two Hindu dominant countries. Nepal and India. They are both amongst the highest in terms of child marriage.

 

[Coyote]

You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here. A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor. I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child? Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?

I'm not the one blaming poverty. I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason. Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in. Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor. I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds. You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.

Now you're spreading disinformation. Did you totally forget my post that indicated that even in India, they passed a law banning marriage under the age of 18, which is acceptable to the Hindu majority, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, and Jews, and the only people that keep doing it are the 300 million Indian Muslims, citing a religious right to do so? Which is again, why it is most prevalent in India among Indian Muslims?

More damning data omitted in favor of disinformation and whitewashing.

No disinformation but rather selective information coming from you.

They can pass a law banning - but the majority of child marriages are occuring, in defiance of the law, in Hindu dominated states, as I pointed out.

"and the only people that keep doing it are the 300 million Indian Muslims" - uh really now? Would you like to prove that? Perhaps you can explain how that fits the facts: http://www.usmessageboard.com/7856065-post451.html

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

It doesn't sound like it's "permitted" - looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.

A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books

From the Mishnah
PG 83 Niddah Ch 5 3-5

"The girl three years and one day old is deemed capable of sexual relations...:"

So that is from "A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities" which sounds as complex and constraining and archaic as all those Islamic codes ... which makes it kind of laughable when people try to single out Islam as a socio-political system some how different from other religions...

It's talking about "Niddah". When I look it up in Wikipedia, it's seems to be rules pertaining to impure (menstrating) women....a bit medievil. Children conceived during Niddah are (ben Niddah) are considered "tainted".

It does state as an example - "a girl 3 yrs old betrothed by intercourse." when talking about legal status of children.

I'll admit - I don't know exactly what to make of it - I'm certainly not a scholar - except to say, that like Islam - many of these rules and cases applied to a culture that existed several thousand years ago and should be viewed in their historical context.

The Mishnah

Around the year 200 CE, following the loss of many Jewish teachers in the failed Great Revolt and Bar-Kokhba rebellion, Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Nasi decided to secure Judaism's Oral Law by codifying it into 63 tractates called the Mishnah. The Mishnah is considered the first work of Rabbinic Judaism. The rabbis whose views are cited in the Mishnah are known as*Tanna'im(teachers).*

The Mishnah consists of six*sedarim(orders), which each contain 7-12masechtot*(tractates), which are each divided into*mishnayot*(verses).*The Six Orders of the Mishnah (Shisha Sidrei Mishnah): Zeraim*(Seeds)agricultural laws and prayers Moed*(Festival)Jewish holidays and Sabbath Nashim(Women)marriage and divorce Nezikin*(Damages)civil and criminal law Kodashim*(Holy Things)sacrificial rites, the Temple, dietary laws Tohorot*(Purities)laws of purity and impurity

Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism

 

[MHunterB]

Yes, that is a discussion by the rabbis attempting to sort out how to deal with the crime of rape against a HYPOTHETICAL child who obviously is far too young to be seen as a 'sexual' being.

It is not, and never was, a discussion of when it was 'acceptable' to inflict sexual intercourse upon a three year old child.

And it's also something which existed as Oral teaching for quite a few hundred years before it was written down ca 200 CE.

It's no more an 'endorsement' of child rape than the passages about Aisha are.

OR - for that matter! - considering a priest who sodomized altar boys to still be keeping his priestly vow of 'celibacy'.

 

[MHunterB]

The passage is actually about the certificate of marriage, the ketubah (pl. ketubot).
Simply because some very bizarre situations are mentioned by one or another of the scholars whose debates are recorded in the Mishnah, does NOT mean that they're suggesting or approving of any of it.

These discussions are attempting to discuss every last possibility which can be imagined.

Of course, as the editor Dr Neusner is still alive, someone could contact him and ask him to explain it.

 

[Coyote]

Yes, that is a discussion by the rabbis attempting to sort out how to deal with the crime of rape against a HYPOTHETICAL child who obviously is far too young to be seen as a 'sexual' being.

It is not, and never was, a discussion of when it was 'acceptable' to inflict sexual intercourse upon a three year old child.

And it's also something which existed as Oral teaching for quite a few hundred years before it was written down ca 200 CE.

It's no more an 'endorsement' of child rape than the passages about Aisha are.

OR - for that matter! - considering a priest who sodomized altar boys to still be keeping his priestly vow of 'celibacy'.

Thanks Marge, that is kind of what I thought - but wasn't sure what it was that I was reading

 

[Roudy]

The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).

Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.

Is 13 an Adult?

Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.

Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, 18 is the proper age for marriage and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

Case closed.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).

Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.

Is 13 an Adult?

Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.

Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, 18 is the proper age for marriage and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

Case closed.

That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel’s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne’el in the Galilee*was arrested*“for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,” according to Ha’aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname “The Mohorosh,” although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.

http://m.forward.com/blogs/sisterhood-blog/136547/jewish-child-brides-%A0why-the-barbaric-practice-o

 

[Coyote]

Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel’s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne’el in the Galilee*was arrested*“for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,” according to Ha’aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname “The Mohorosh,” although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.

Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism

That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage. It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.

 

[toastman]

Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel’s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne’el in the Galilee*was arrested*“for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,” according to Ha’aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname “The Mohorosh,” although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.

Jewish Child Brides ?*Why the Barbaric Practice of Marrying Off Young Girls Persists ? The Sisterhood ? Forward.com

Let us know when the Jewish government allows for child marriages. Right now you're just trying to take the attention away from the real issue, and it's making you look desperate. Got your back to the wall , Sherri Munnernazi ?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel’s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne’el in the Galilee*was arrested*“for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,” according to Ha’aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname “The Mohorosh,” although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.

Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism

That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage. It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.

There are extremists in all religions. In the US, there is a problem with Polygamy among Mormons and I believe child marriages are occurring with that too. I know I have heard stories of young girls/women escaping these marriages.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Polygamy and Mormonism are inseparably entwined. One of the most offensive aspects of Mormon-based polygamy is the rampant practice of taking underage girls as polygamous wives. This is precisely what Brian David Mitchell did when he abducted Elizabeth Smart. In the western United States, there are at least 30,000 people involved in the practice of Mormon-based polygamy. In these polygamous groups, the compulsion for underage girls to marry polygamists--usually men much older than themselves--is a part of everyday life. In these communities, girls as young as 12 or 13 are often married off to priesthood leaders. The most powerful and influential of these priesthood holders have first pick of the girls. Parents of the young girls submit their daughters willingly into these unions with the hope of being blessed by God in their afterlife.

Child Brides - Mormon - Polygamy

 

[Coyote]

Polygamy and Mormonism are inseparably entwined. One of the most offensive aspects of Mormon-based polygamy is the rampant practice of taking underage girls as polygamous wives. This is precisely what Brian David Mitchell did when he abducted Elizabeth Smart. In the western United States, there are at least 30,000 people involved in the practice of Mormon-based polygamy. In these polygamous groups, the compulsion for underage girls to marry polygamists--usually men much older than themselves--is a part of everyday life. In these communities, girls as young as 12 or 13 are often married off to priesthood leaders. The most powerful and influential of these priesthood holders have first pick of the girls. Parents of the young girls submit their daughters willingly into these unions with the hope of being blessed by God in their afterlife.

Child Brides - Mormon - Polygamy

I have to laugh....

My great great Grandmother came over from Norway to marry a Mormon (her father sent his kids over one at a time after he converted). When she got there, the young man was sent off on a mission and she was married to an old man, as a plural wife. I think she was 14.

To be honest - I don't care one way or the other about polygamy - as long as it's between consenting adults and not coerced. But often, it seems to become an excuse for old men to marry increasingly younger wives.

 

[MHunterB]

Polygamy and Mormonism are inseparably entwined. One of the most offensive aspects of Mormon-based polygamy is the rampant practice of taking underage girls as polygamous wives. This is precisely what Brian David Mitchell did when he abducted Elizabeth Smart. In the western United States, there are at least 30,000 people involved in the practice of Mormon-based polygamy. In these polygamous groups, the compulsion for underage girls to marry polygamists--usually men much older than themselves--is a part of everyday life. In these communities, girls as young as 12 or 13 are often married off to priesthood leaders. The most powerful and influential of these priesthood holders have first pick of the girls. Parents of the young girls submit their daughters willingly into these unions with the hope of being blessed by God in their afterlife.

Child Brides - Mormon - Polygamy

No. What Mitchell did was kidnap Elizabeth Smart: it was a crime regardless of her age. And her parents most certainly didn't agree.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books


This is interesting, a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The photo below shows two little girls, recent immigrants from Yemen to Israel. The girl on the left is said to be married, the girl on the right is not. They look about age 8 or 9.

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law’s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

Was it culture or religion that primarily explained child marriage among the Jews of Yemen?

I think it was primarily culture, but religion seems to have played a role, too.