Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[Iriemon]

Wow, should the 'details' be looked at? How much easier to condemn based on the Japanese WWII citation, ignoring other atrocities, not too mention the differences, based on the agreements.

Or better yet, just ignore the fact that our government sentenced people for war crimes for waterboarding.

Things were different back then. It's not the same. Back then, it was other governments doing it. Now its our government doing it.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

Look at the details, the two types of waterboarding weren't the same. Would you like to know some of the other atrocities that the Japanese criminals committed?

Its irrelevant that they did other things. The Japs were prosecuted for waterboarding regardless of the method employed.

Why? Because the US government considered water torture to be torture. Simple as that.

 

[Newby]

Wow, should the 'details' be looked at? How much easier to condemn based on the Japanese WWII citation, ignoring other atrocities, not too mention the differences, based on the agreements.

Or better yet, just ignore the fact that our government sentenced people for war crimes for waterboarding.

Things were different back then. It's not the same. Back then, it was other governments doing it. Now its our government doing it.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

Look at the details, the two types of waterboarding weren't the same. Would you like to know some of the other atrocities that the Japanese criminals committed?

He's been told this numerous times in numerous threads that I've read. He'll never take the Obama blinders off, so save your breath.

 

[Iriemon]

Or better yet, just ignore the fact that our government sentenced people for war crimes for waterboarding.

Things were different back then. It's not the same. Back then, it was other governments doing it. Now its our government doing it.

Why does it have to be so difficult?

Look at the details, the two types of waterboarding weren't the same. Would you like to know some of the other atrocities that the Japanese criminals committed?

He's been told this numerous times in numerous threads that I've read. He'll never take the Obama blinders off, so save your breath.

Your correct that I've been told numerous times. Many folks seem to think that by just saying something over and over it establishes a fact. Sometimes they think that by using caps and hurling some insults it helps make their say-so seem like fact. I look at the evidence as opposed to what folks like you say. That evidence, published numerous times, establishes that the Japs were prosecuted for all forms of waterboarding torture.

If there was some evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more benign types of water boarding as not torture, I missed that.

 

[Newby]

Look at the details, the two types of waterboarding weren't the same. Would you like to know some of the other atrocities that the Japanese criminals committed?

He's been told this numerous times in numerous threads that I've read. He'll never take the Obama blinders off, so save your breath.

Your correct that I've been told numerous times. Many folks seem to think that by just saying something over and over it establishes a fact. Sometimes they think that by using caps and hurling some insults it helps make their say-so seem like fact. I look at the evidence as opposed to what folks like you say. That evidence, published numerous times, establishes that the Japs were prosecuted for all forms of waterboarding torture.

If there was some evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more benign types of water boarding as not torture, I missed that.

You like to play dumb for some odd reason, or perhaps it's not playing. I've seen you do this numerous times in numerous threads, even tho you've already discussed something and been told something elsewhere, you act as tho you haven't. You've been shown links to multiple places that discuss the distinct differeneces between what occurred in WWII and what occurred to terrorists being questioned by the CIA. If you want to continue to play stupid, be my guest, the answer doesn't change just because you chose to ignore it.

 

[Iriemon]

He's been told this numerous times in numerous threads that I've read. He'll never take the Obama blinders off, so save your breath.

Your correct that I've been told numerous times. Many folks seem to think that by just saying something over and over it establishes a fact. Sometimes they think that by using caps and hurling some insults it helps make their say-so seem like fact. I look at the evidence as opposed to what folks like you say. That evidence, published numerous times, establishes that the Japs were prosecuted for all forms of waterboarding torture.

If there was some evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more benign types of water boarding as not torture, I missed that.

You like to play dumb for some odd reason, or perhaps it's not playing. I've seen you do this numerous times in numerous threads, even tho you've already discussed something and been told something elsewhere, you act as tho you haven't. You've been shown links to multiple places that discuss the distinct differeneces between what occurred in WWII and what occurred to terrorists being questioned by the CIA. If you want to continue to play stupid, be my guest, the answer doesn't change just because you chose to ignore it.

I deny that. Show me where anyone ever presented evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more "benign" types of water boarding as not being torture, and I'll retract my statement and admit I was wrong.

 

[Newby]

Your correct that I've been told numerous times. Many folks seem to think that by just saying something over and over it establishes a fact. Sometimes they think that by using caps and hurling some insults it helps make their say-so seem like fact. I look at the evidence as opposed to what folks like you say. That evidence, published numerous times, establishes that the Japs were prosecuted for all forms of waterboarding torture.

If there was some evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more benign types of water boarding as not torture, I missed that.

You like to play dumb for some odd reason, or perhaps it's not playing. I've seen you do this numerous times in numerous threads, even tho you've already discussed something and been told something elsewhere, you act as tho you haven't. You've been shown links to multiple places that discuss the distinct differeneces between what occurred in WWII and what occurred to terrorists being questioned by the CIA. If you want to continue to play stupid, be my guest, the answer doesn't change just because you chose to ignore it.

I deny that. Show me where anyone ever presented evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more "benign" types of water boarding as not being torture, and I'll retract my statement and admit I was wrong.

That's not what I said.

You've been shown links to multiple places that discuss the distinct differeneces between what occurred in WWII and what occurred to terrorists being questioned by the CIA.

Where did you get out of that anyone 'presented evidence that the US martial cours in WWII excused certain more 'benign' types of water boarding as not being torture'?

 

[Iriemon]

You like to play dumb for some odd reason, or perhaps it's not playing. I've seen you do this numerous times in numerous threads, even tho you've already discussed something and been told something elsewhere, you act as tho you haven't. You've been shown links to multiple places that discuss the distinct differeneces between what occurred in WWII and what occurred to terrorists being questioned by the CIA. If you want to continue to play stupid, be my guest, the answer doesn't change just because you chose to ignore it.

I deny that. Show me where anyone ever presented evidence that the US martial courts in WWII excused certain more "benign" types of water boarding as not being torture, and I'll retract my statement and admit I was wrong.

That's not what I said.

You've been shown links to multiple places that discuss the distinct differeneces between what occurred in WWII and what occurred to terrorists being questioned by the CIA.

Where did you get out of that anyone 'presented evidence that the US martial cours in WWII excused certain more 'benign' types of water boarding as not being torture'?

It was written in my thread that you responded to. #734.

The Japanese used different forms of waterboarding which involved pouring water on the covered face of the victim to simulate drowning. That is what the CIA did. Poured water over the face of the victim to simulate drowning.

Here is the testimony of what one US airman went through during the prosecution of Japanese for war crimes:

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[71] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[31]

Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If someone has explained how the CIA version differed materially from that, and did not involved simulated drowning I haven't seen it.

The US prosecuted the Japs for torture for waterboarding. These include forms of waterboarding which involved pouring water on the victim's face to simulate drowning. that is what the CIA did. There is no dispute about that.

If the US military commission ever noted that certain forms of waterboarding were *not* considered torture, I've never seen any indication of that. To the contrary, all forms of simulated drowning water torture were deemed torture by the US courts.

The fact that the Japs did other things is irrelevant. The US courts did not say "waterboarding was OK" but prosecuted for other forms of torture. To the contrary.

 

[Newby]

So, the Japanese 'rules' when water boarding someone were the same as ours then? Is that your implication?

 

[Iriemon]

So, the Japanese 'rules' when water boarding someone were the same as ours then? Is that your implication?

They used various forms of the torture. All involved simulated drowning. As did the CIA's.

 

[Newby]

So, the Japanese 'rules' when water boarding someone were the same as ours then? Is that your implication?

They used various forms of the torture. All involved simulated drowning. As did the CIA's.

You know what I'm asking. The CIA had a set of rules to follow. The person could not be permanently physically harmed in any way. They used fresh water, the Japanese used salt water. The Japanese took a tube put water directly in the stomach, there were no time limits on anything, etc.. To compare them as being the same is not being honest.

 

[Sarah G]

To think that we are only discussing this at all is because the job of interrogating the pows was handed down to incompetent prison guards who couldn't even keep themselves from emailing these pictures out to all their friends.

Who would believe that any viable information came out of this? Only Cheney would take it seriously and then try to bullshit the American people about it.

 

[DiveCon]

To think that we are only discussing this at all is because the job of interrogating the pows was handed down to incompetent prison guards who couldn't even keep themselves from emailing these pictures out to all their friends.

Who would believe that any viable information came out of this? Only Cheney would take it seriously and then try to bullshit the American people about it.

so, we can add you to the list of people that want all the memo's released, since you are convinced Cheney is lying?

 

[Iriemon]

So, the Japanese 'rules' when water boarding someone were the same as ours then? Is that your implication?

They used various forms of the torture. All involved simulated drowning. As did the CIA's.

You know what I'm asking. The CIA had a set of rules to follow. The person could not be permanently physically harmed in any way. They used fresh water, the Japanese used salt water. The Japanese took a tube put water directly in the stomach, there were no time limits on anything, etc.. To compare them as being the same is not being honest.

The Japanese may have done that on some occassions, but as the airman's sworn testimony in their prosecution trial I cited above shows, they are also prosecuted for waterboarding by pouring water on a rag covered face, just as our friends in the CIA did according to the memos.

 

[DiveCon]

They used various forms of the torture. All involved simulated drowning. As did the CIA's.

You know what I'm asking. The CIA had a set of rules to follow. The person could not be permanently physically harmed in any way. They used fresh water, the Japanese used salt water. The Japanese took a tube put water directly in the stomach, there were no time limits on anything, etc.. To compare them as being the same is not being honest.

The Japanese may have done that on some occassions, but as the airman's sworn testimony in their prosecution trial I cited above shows, they are also prosecuted for waterboarding by pouring water on a rag covered face, just as our friends in the CIA did according to the memos.

who was prosecuted just for waterboarding?

or was it added in as charges like for a bank robber they would add in a charge of speeding and resisting arrest

 

[Iriemon]

You know what I'm asking. The CIA had a set of rules to follow. The person could not be permanently physically harmed in any way. They used fresh water, the Japanese used salt water. The Japanese took a tube put water directly in the stomach, there were no time limits on anything, etc.. To compare them as being the same is not being honest.

The Japanese may have done that on some occassions, but as the airman's sworn testimony in their prosecution trial I cited above shows, they are also prosecuted for waterboarding by pouring water on a rag covered face, just as our friends in the CIA did according to the memos.

who was prosecuted just for waterboarding?

There are sources here that say that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1175155-post446.html

or was it added in as charges like for a bank robber they would add in a charge of speeding and resisting arrest

Which would still show that speeding and resisting arrest are considered crimes by the Govt.

 

[DiveCon]

The Japanese may have done that on some occassions, but as the airman's sworn testimony in their prosecution trial I cited above shows, they are also prosecuted for waterboarding by pouring water on a rag covered face, just as our friends in the CIA did according to the memos.

who was prosecuted just for waterboarding?

There are sources here that say that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1175155-post446.html

or was it added in as charges like for a bank robber they would add in a charge of speeding and resisting arrest

Which would still show that speeding and resisting arrest are considered crimes by the Govt.

so, you should support a full release of the memos

 

[Iriemon]

who was prosecuted just for waterboarding?

There are sources here that say that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1175155-post446.html

or was it added in as charges like for a bank robber they would add in a charge of speeding and resisting arrest

Which would still show that speeding and resisting arrest are considered crimes by the Govt.

so, you should support a full release of the memos

I don't oppose it, if it wouldn't compromise intellegence.

 

[Coyote]

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

They only CLAIMED they waterboarded 3 people.

Mind you, these are the same people that denied doing anything of the sort in the first place and destroyed videorecords of the sessions.

Can you see why I suspend belief at anything they say? Please do tell.

wow, you live in a fantasy world, dont ya?

Yup. Right now I'm fantasizing that you make sense. It's a stretch.

Stretching.

Stretching.

Fantasy denied.

Oh well, I tried. The reality gap was too wide.

 

[Coyote]

well, they only waterboarded 3 people, which of those 3 were "innocent"?
please, do tell

They only CLAIMED they waterboarded 3 people.

Mind you, these are the same people that denied doing anything of the sort in the first place and destroyed videorecords of the sessions.

Can you see why I suspend belief at anything they say? Please do tell.

Yet Blair claims the enhanced interrogations provided useful information. He wasn't director when the enhanced interrogations were being used. As a matter of fact he is Obama's director.

Yet it took 183 waterboardings to ascertain no further useful information would be forthcoming...

Makes you wonder how many suspects were tortured before they came up with one that had some info? Natch, they don't provide those sort of stats do they?

 

[Coyote]

It's more likely like this...since those that were there should know...
JEFFREY: Waterboarding saved L.A. - Washington Times
. "Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, he resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon, you will know.' "


After he was waterboarded, KSM provided the CIA with information that enabled the U.S. government to close down a terror cell already "tasked" with flying a jet into a building in Los Angeles.

"You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM - once enhanced techniques were employed - led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles," the memo says, referring to information the CIA provided to the Justice Department.

FBI: Key Sept. 11 Leads Obtained Without Torture : NPR

Any independent verification of the CIA's claims? Ooops....no...they destroyed key videotapes didn't they?

Yep so libtards like you, couldn't get the shit released under the FOIA and have terrorist around the world using the videos as recruiting propaganda. Pretty smart if you ask me.

Sure is convenient.....if you ask me.