Capitalism

[dblack]

Marx saw socialism as a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

Socialism advocates the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Collective ownership can involve government or not.

True. But that's not really what socialists are after, is it? They can do collective ownership now, under the current form of government. The employee-owned company is already a thing. Why does anything need to change?

 

[pknopp]

Obviously you didn't have money in the bank and let them collapse, no knowledge of economics there !!!!!! How you think a nation would survive without bailing the banks out in the economic collapse that you spanners created, is anyone's guess.
Portugal is probably one of the very very few nations that have socialism. What you wrote there, could you please explain Portugal's Economic Adjustment Programme

So you like everyone else isn't going to answer my question.


Bailing out a failed business has nothing to do with capitalism so like I said, capitalism is just a theory that isn't actually practiced.

 

[Soupnazi630]

So you like everyone else isn't going to answer my question.


Bailing out a failed business has nothing to do with capitalism so like I said, capitalism is just a theory that isn't actually practiced.

It is practiced. Practiced succesfully

Communism is practiced and succesfully. Which means we have livable capitalist nations and communist dystopian nightmare nations

 

[dblack]

So you like everyone else isn't going to answer my question.


Bailing out a failed business has nothing to do with capitalism so like I said, capitalism is just a theory that isn't actually practiced.

So what?

 

[georgephillip]

Wrong

Collective ownership has to involve government which in turn must be totalitarian and brutal.

Since governments play a crucial role in defining, enforcing, and protecting property rights, name any form of ownership that doesn't involve government.

 

[georgephillip]

Quoting marx is a failure and does not support your cause. He was massively stupid and did not comprehend or understand economics at even the most fundamental level.

Your ignorance is truly MAGA.

Marx spent his life as a little known, impoverished intellectual living on the charity of friends, spending his years reading and writing. Within 70 years of his death in 1883, almost 1/3 of the entire human race was living under governments that called themselves Marxist.

Marx: Genius of the Modern World

 

[georgephillip]

irst of all exploitation is normal and necessary in any human interaction. What makes capitalism superior and more effecient is that exploitation is voluntary. Under collectivist systems there is still massive exploitation of the worker but it is forced and involuntary.

Exploitation is never voluntary.

It requires general relations that are far from equal like those between capital and labor in capitalism.

Monthly Review | Grand Theft Capital: The Increasing Exploitation and Robbery of the U.S. Working Class

"Workers are generally subjected to a labor process determined entirely by the owners.

"It is the boss who sets conditions of work and defines what is expected from workers.

"Moreover, it is the owner that has the power to hire and fire, with little in the way of contractual relations preventing the worker from being made 'redundant' and laid off.

"As professor of philosophy and women’s studies at the University of Michigan Elizabeth Anderson explains, 'When we are workers, we lie under the government of a boss. It’s a dictatorship. The boss rules.'"4

 

[georgephillip]

True. But that's not really what socialists are after, is it? They can do collective ownership now, under the current form of government. The employee-owned company is already a thing. Why does anything need to change?

While it may be a simplification to claim "capitalists own the US government," the influence of wealth in politics through campaign financing, lobbying efforts, and regulatory capture, ensure the richest 1% to 10% of all voters will vote their class interests to prevent any meaningful, systemic change to our current oligarchic form of government.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Since governments play a crucial role in defining, enforcing, and protecting property rights, name any form of ownership that doesn't involve government.

That is irrelevant. I never claimed capitalism is free of government. I said you cannot have collective ownership without government which you claimed can happen.

You are backpedaling

 

[Soupnazi630]

While it may be a simplification to claim "capitalists own the US government," the influence of wealth in politics through campaign financing, lobbying efforts, and regulatory capture, ensure the richest 1% to 10% of all voters will vote their class interests to prevent any meaningful, systemic change to our current oligarchic form of government.

No one votyes their class interests

They vote their personal interests. One of the many many rather stupid failures of marxist thouyght is the amssive emphasis on class over the individual. Marxists come to believe that cvlass is some monolith or living entity that people belong to without choice and people place loyalty to class above themselves regardless of what class they are in. This is why maxists always use terms like class war and class interest and even class traitor,

None of this is accurate howveer. Class barely exists in any sort of identifiable way. It is massively subjective and ambiguous and flexible.

Yes the wealthy donate money and try to influence politics but so do many not so wealthy people through unions and lobbbying groups and they have just as much influence so your point is irrelevant

 

[Soupnazi630]

Exploitation is never voluntary.

It requires general relations that are far from equal like those between capital and labor in capitalism.

Monthly Review | Grand Theft Capital: The Increasing Exploitation and Robbery of the U.S. Working Class

"Workers are generally subjected to a labor process determined entirely by the owners.

"It is the boss who sets conditions of work and defines what is expected from workers.

"Moreover, it is the owner that has the power to hire and fire, with little in the way of contractual relations preventing the worker from being made 'redundant' and laid off.

"As professor of philosophy and women’s studies at the University of Michigan Elizabeth Anderson explains, 'When we are workers, we lie under the government of a boss. It’s a dictatorship. The boss rules.'"4

Wrong it is most certiannly voluntary in a capitalist system. Relations are never equal in any thing.

Saying that the relation is not equal in no way removes agency or self determination from people who work for a living. They are always free to find other jobs or work for themselves. The idea that they have no choice but to work in one way or for ONE person is a bald faced lie. EVERY worker has massive options on where and how to work.

Do not EVEN trry to say that their choice is to work or starve which makes them a slaves. THAT is a fiction


Elixabeth Anderson is a fool and idiot with a degree. When we are workers WE SHOOSE when and where and how to work.

But not under socialism or communism where those choises are removed and you are owned by the state or the collective

 

[Soupnazi630]

Your ignorance is truly MAGA.

Marx spent his life as a little known, impoverished intellectual living on the charity of friends, spending his years reading and writing. Within 70 years of his death in 1883, almost 1/3 of the entire human race was living under governments that called themselves Marxist.

Marx: Genius of the Modern World

Yes exactly you proved my point

Marx was all that you described above. This si what motivated his entire delusional effort. He wanted to design a system where deadbeats and bums like him would be admired and called deadbeats or bums

He was a grifter. He was also very stupid as you correctly point out he spent that vast majority of his life unemployed and begging.

He could not even cash a paycheck. The most fundamental of economic activities.

When you say living under you mean they were enslaved by marxist governments. That is not praise for marx it is accurate condemnation of all he stood for

 

[dblack]

While it may be a simplification to claim "capitalists own the US government," the influence of wealth in politics through campaign financing, lobbying efforts, and regulatory capture, ensure the richest 1% to 10% of all voters will vote their class interests to prevent any meaningful, systemic change to our current oligarchic form of government.

Hmmm... were you responding to a different quote or something? This doesn't address what I posted.

 

[pknopp]

It is practiced. Practiced succesfully

Communism is practiced and succesfully. Which means we have livable capitalist nations and communist dystopian nightmare nations

Where in Capitalism do we find the part where taxpayers are on the hook for bailing out a failed business?

 

[pknopp]

So what?

So? Simply defending my position that Capitalism is just a theory.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Where in Capitalism do we find the part where taxpayers are on the hook for bailing out a failed business?

No where because that is merely a facet of government corruption. Which exists in any and every society

 

[Soupnazi630]

So? Simply defending my position that Capitalism is just a theory.

yes a proven theory

 

[dblack]

So? Simply defending my position that Capitalism is just a theory.

Why does that matter?

 

[pknopp]

No where because that is merely a facet of government corruption. Which exists in any and every society

And that is our economic system.

 

[Soupnazi630]

And that is our economic system.

Wrong

government corruption is not an economic system