Can you get a good job without an education?

[rdean]

Republicans seem to think so. What kind of jobs are available without college or some "skill"?

College Stats College Completion

And how many of those graduates are from funky tier four or below Bible Colleges?

On one hand you have Republicans complaining that Obama isn't doing enough for jobs, then you have Republicans all across the country cutting education, and Republicans mocking Obama for saying he wanted ALL American to have the chance for an education.

What are they going to do without an education? Remember, this is the reason business wants to bring in immigrants with degrees, to fill jobs Republicans will never be qualified for.

 

[Two Thumbs]

yea, there are many good paying jobs that don't need a degree.

just b/c your to limp wristed to be able to do them doesn't mean other people aren't happy to.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Neither the the wife or I graduated college and at our peak we made over 300'000k a year.
I retired at 46 and the wife will retire at 50.
Never to work again thank God !!!!!

 

[Rikurzhen]

Sure you can. Employers used to use IQ tests as a metric to measure suitability for a job but because this discriminated against blacks, IQ tests were made illegal in the hiring process and so employers settled on college credentials as a metric to measure intelligence.

Very few employers make use of your skills in Art History or your knowledge of Racism in Colonial America or other non-market related knowledge.

If I were King I'd do away with college credentialing to get into the job market and bring back IQ tests. Those who need specialized knowledge, like engineers, scientists, physicians, art historians, can go to university and develop their special skills, but you don't need special skills to be a Walmart manager or a product rep. You develop job skills on the job and through specialized courses that your company sends you to.

Imagine the boost to the welfare of young people - they start earning an income at 18, they enter the adult world with adult role models instead of prolonging their adolescence until they are 26 and then enter the job market with no skills and vast amounts of debts that liberals have inflicted upon them. Why? So that the feelings of blacks don't get hurt. Trillions of dollars of needless debt and years of life wasted in order to spare the ego of blacks.

 

[JQPublic1]

I

Imagine the boost to the welfare of young people - they start earning an income at 18, they enter the adult world with adult role models instead of prolonging their adolescence until they are 26 and then enter the job market with no skills and vast amounts of debts that liberals have inflicted upon them. Why? So that the feelings of blacks don't get hurt. Trillions of dollars of needless debt and years of life wasted in order to spare the ego of blacks.

Dayum ! You are all over the place with this racist BS, Rikurzhen. You know darn well that you cannot make a nexus between student debt and the protection of Black's feelings. You just couldn't help yourself. every time you see an opening you thrust your racist face into it... I am just thankful that all White people are not like you!

 

[Rikurzhen]

I

Imagine the boost to the welfare of young people - they start earning an income at 18, they enter the adult world with adult role models instead of prolonging their adolescence until they are 26 and then enter the job market with no skills and vast amounts of debts that liberals have inflicted upon them. Why? So that the feelings of blacks don't get hurt. Trillions of dollars of needless debt and years of life wasted in order to spare the ego of blacks.

Dayum ! You are all over the place with this racist BS, Rikurzhen. You know darn well that you cannot make a nexus between student debt and the protection of Black's feelings. You just couldn't help yourself. every time you see an opening you thrust your racist face into it... I am just thankful that all White people are not like you!

Griggs versus Duke Power Co,

Negro employees at respondent's generating plant brought this action, pursuant to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, challenging respondent's requirement of a high school diploma or passing of intelligence tests as a condition of employment in or transfer to jobs at the plant. These requirements were not directed at or intended to measure ability to learn to perform a particular job or category of jobs. While § 703(a) of the Act makes it an unlawful employment practice for an employer to limit, segregate, or classify employees to deprive them of employment opportunities or adversely to affect their status because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, § 703(h) authorizes the use of any professionally developed ability test, provided that it is not designed, intended, or used to discriminate. The District Court found that respondent's former policy of racial discrimination had ended, and that Title VII, being prospective only, did not reach the prior inequities. The Court of Appeals reversed in part, rejecting the holding that residual discrimination arising from prior practices was insulated from remedial action, but agreed with the lower court that there was no showing of discriminatory purpose in the adoption of the diploma and test requirements. It held that, absent such discriminatory purpose, use of the requirements was permitted, and rejected the claim that, because a disproportionate number of Negroes was rendered ineligible for promotion, transfer, or employment, the requirements were unlawful unless shown to be job-related.

Held:

1. The Act requires the elimination of artificial, arbitrary, and unnecessary barriers to employment that operate invidiously to discriminate on the basis of race, and if, as here, an employment practice that operates to exclude Negroes cannot be shown to be related to job performance, it is prohibited, notwithstanding the employer's lack of discriminatory intent. Pp. 429-433.​

 

[Rikurzhen]

Analysis of the impact produced by the Griggs decision:

This paper is about a court case decided by the U. S. Supreme Court in 1971. Although attorneys recognize that the case is important to businesses, its impact on colleges and universities has been explored by only a few. As this paper will show, Griggs v. Duke Power may have enormously boosted the number of students in college and may have increased the differential in income between high school and college graduates. It may have led to higher tuition, without providing commensurate additional value.

Indeed, it could even be a judicial decision whose economic implications have been matched by only a few far more celebrated cases in history such as Gibbons v. Ogden (1824), the Dred Scott decision (1857), and the Schechter Poultry case (1935). The hypothesis of this paper is that Griggs turned a college degree into a “credential.” The content of the education did not change, but the degree—the sheepskin—became a necessary first step for a decent job.

Today, for many jobs, only a degree opens the doors of potential employers’ offices. It does not ensure a job—college graduates often say that it is just a “fishing license”—but it assures the employer that an applicant has at least a minimum level of skill and accomplishment. In the eyes of an employer, a degree demonstrates that the applicant passed a certain number of classes, completed outside reading, wrote at least a couple of papers, thought critically,and was able to manage his or her life in a way that led to graduation. Such skills—determination, critical thinking and writing, organization, and independence—are often valued by employers.

Providing such assurance to employers did not always require a college degree,and this credentialing function did not happen by chance. Through a series of court rulings and subsequent legislation, a cumbersome set of legal rules has developed that make it difficult for employers to use testing to find out if an applicant is intelligent, capable, and diligent. As we will see, fear of litigation is always in the background. For many jobs, a college degree has become an alternate means of “testing.”​

 

[Skull Pilot]

I know plenty of people who have a bullshit degree who make less than people who never went to school.

Seriously a BS in Psych or English Lit isn't going to get you a better paying job than not going to school and working in the trades

 

[Esmeralda]

Republicans seem to think so. What kind of jobs are available without college or some "skill"?

College Stats College Completion

And how many of those graduates are from funky tier four or below Bible Colleges?

On one hand you have Republicans complaining that Obama isn't doing enough for jobs, then you have Republicans all across the country cutting education, and Republicans mocking Obama for saying he wanted ALL American to have the chance for an education.

What are they going to do without an education? Remember, this is the reason business wants to bring in immigrants with degrees, to fill jobs Republicans will never be qualified for.

You don't actually need a college degree to get a well paying job. Apprentice programs and vocational training programs often lead to well paying jobs. In fact, someone completing a vocational training program, depending on the field of study, may earn more than a college graduate. I am, however, very pro-education, but academics are not for everyone. I would say that about 50% of our high school graduates are better off not being funneled into college and university programs as they are not academically inclined, but they should do some kind of vocational training.

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

What do you suppose racial set asides are all about?

 

[Rikurzhen]

What do you suppose racial set asides are all about?

Buying peace at the expense of merit and innocent victims.

 

[Jackson]

Sure you can. Employers used to use IQ tests as a metric to measure suitability for a job but because this discriminated against blacks, IQ tests were made illegal in the hiring process and so employers settled on college credentials as a metric to measure intelligence.

Very few employers make use of your skills in Art History or your knowledge of Racism in Colonial America or other non-market related knowledge.

If I were King I'd do away with college credentialing to get into the job market and bring back IQ tests. Those who need specialized knowledge, like engineers, scientists, physicians, art historians, can go to university and develop their special skills, but you don't need special skills to be a Walmart manager or a product rep. You develop job skills on the job and through specialized courses that your company sends you to.

Imagine the boost to the welfare of young people - they start earning an income at 18, they enter the adult world with adult role models instead of prolonging their adolescence until they are 26 and then enter the job market with no skills and vast amounts of debts that liberals have inflicted upon them. Why? So that the feelings of blacks don't get hurt. Trillions of dollars of needless debt and years of life wasted in order to spare the ego of blacks.

The IQ test will show that a person has the ability to learn any job they are looking to interview for. I have more confidence in the general black population than is given on this thread. And it is not just a portion of the blacks that will have difficulty with IQ tests, it is a portion of the population in general. The microscope always happens to be on blacks, however. Include poor whites and Hispanics and you'll see that it's not just a "black" problem, hence non-discriminatory.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Sure you can. Employers used to use IQ tests as a metric to measure suitability for a job but because this discriminated against blacks, IQ tests were made illegal in the hiring process and so employers settled on college credentials as a metric to measure intelligence.

Very few employers make use of your skills in Art History or your knowledge of Racism in Colonial America or other non-market related knowledge.

If I were King I'd do away with college credentialing to get into the job market and bring back IQ tests. Those who need specialized knowledge, like engineers, scientists, physicians, art historians, can go to university and develop their special skills, but you don't need special skills to be a Walmart manager or a product rep. You develop job skills on the job and through specialized courses that your company sends you to.

Imagine the boost to the welfare of young people - they start earning an income at 18, they enter the adult world with adult role models instead of prolonging their adolescence until they are 26 and then enter the job market with no skills and vast amounts of debts that liberals have inflicted upon them. Why? So that the feelings of blacks don't get hurt. Trillions of dollars of needless debt and years of life wasted in order to spare the ego of blacks.

The IQ test will show that a person has the ability to learn any job they are looking to interview for. I have more confidence in the general black population than is given on this thread. And it is not just a portion of the blacks that will have difficulty with IQ tests, it is a portion of the population in general. The microscope always happens to be on blacks, however. Include poor whites and Hispanics and you'll see that it's not just a "black" problem, hence non-discriminatory.

Courts disagree with you. The issue isn't that some people from all racial groups fail to clear the IQ hurdle, it's the blacks have the highest failure rate. Here's an example of this playing out in real life:

Ricci v. DeStefano, 557 U.S. 557 (2009), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court concerning employment practices by New Haven, Connecticut's fire department.[1] Eighteen city firefighters, seventeen of which were white and one was Hispanic, brought suit under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 after they had passed the test for promotions to management positions and the city declined to promote them. New Haven officials invalidated the test results because none of the black firefighters scored high enough to be considered for the positions. City officials stated that they feared a lawsuit over the test's disproportionate exclusion of certain racial groups from promotion under the controversial "disparate impact" theory of liability.​

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

What do you suppose racial set asides are all about?

Buying peace at the expense of merit and innocent victims.

I know plenty of people who have a bullshit degree who make less than people who never went to school.

Seriously a BS in Psych or English Lit isn't going to get you a better paying job than not going to school and working in the trades

They make way less than the trades in fact. I remember when the employees of Powell's Book Store in Portland, Oregon went on strike a few years back. It's gigantic; the biggest book store in the world, selling mostly used books but some new books as well. It's actually a tourist destination for book lovers from all over the world.

The average employee there before the strike held an MA in English, or in literature, or in English literature. That was necessary because of the esoteric knowledge of the art & craft required to deal in the business of books, especially such a huge inventory of books.

There's so many people with MA degrees who want to live in Portland, and so few targeted jobs for such people, they'll take whatever they can get. It took them 6 years to get their MA degrees, then they end up working at Powell's for minimum wage. Powell's was taking advantage of them, to be sure. It's one of the few times I've seen unionization that was legitimate. Though they weren't striking for $100k a year like public employee union goons with a GED. I think they got $15-$16 an hour. That still ain't shit for a city like Portland, but it was twice what they were getting.

I'm not sure if I consider non-degreed programmers tradesmen or professionals. Probably half of each. I do know that I met many such people in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto specifically), who held associate's degrees from community colleges, who were young, who were knocking down major salaries. If a young person was asking my advice on career choice, and if they had some skill in math and a little abstract thinking, that's one of the first places I'd steer them, especially into gaming.

 

[Rikurzhen]

What do you suppose racial set asides are all about?

Buying peace at the expense of merit and innocent victims.

I know plenty of people who have a bullshit degree who make less than people who never went to school.

Seriously a BS in Psych or English Lit isn't going to get you a better paying job than not going to school and working in the trades

They make way less than the trades in fact. I remember when the employees of Powell's Book Store in Portland, Oregon went on strike a few years back. It's gigantic; the biggest book store in the world, selling mostly used books but some new books as well. It's actually a tourist destination for book lovers from all over the world.

The average employee there before the strike held an MA in English, or in literature, or in English literature. That was necessary because of the esoteric knowledge of the art & craft required to deal in the business of books, especially such a huge inventory of books.

There's so many people with MA degrees who want to live in Portland, and so few targeted jobs for such people, they'll take whatever they can get. It took them 6 years to get their MA degrees, then they end up working at Powell's for minimum wage. Powell's was taking advantage of them, to be sure. It's one of the few times I've seen unionization that was legitimate. Though they weren't striking for $100k a years like public employee union goons with a GED. I think they got $15-$16 an hour. That still ain't shit for a city like Portland, but it was twice what they were getting.

I'm not sure if I consider non-degreed programmers tradesmen or professionals. Probably half of each. I do know that I met many such people in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto specifically), who held associate's degrees from community colleges, who were young, who were knocking down major salaries. If a young person was asking my advice on career choice, and if they had some skill in math and a little abstract thinking, that's one of the first places I'd steer them, especially into gaming.

SV is still one of the few places in America that tries to resist the racial set-asides racket. The industry is too competitive and so the thought of bringing on dead wood to gum up the efficiency of the labor force isn't too appealing. Sadly the savages are beating their drums and raising a stink and the fort will soon fall. On the other hand, it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch in that this is what SV should expect for being so massively on the side of Democrats. When you sleep with dogs you're going to get bitten by fleas.

 

[HenryBHough]

"President of The United States" seems to be a well-paying job that requires no skills. At least not recently.

 

[guno]

Republicans seem to think so. What kind of jobs are available without college or some "skill"?

College Stats College Completion

And how many of those graduates are from funky tier four or below Bible Colleges?

On one hand you have Republicans complaining that Obama isn't doing enough for jobs, then you have Republicans all across the country cutting education, and Republicans mocking Obama for saying he wanted ALL American to have the chance for an education.

What are they going to do without an education? Remember, this is the reason business wants to bring in immigrants with degrees, to fill jobs Republicans will never be qualified for.

Republicans seem to think so. What kind of jobs are available without college or some "skill"?

College Stats College Completion

And how many of those graduates are from funky tier four or below Bible Colleges?

On one hand you have Republicans complaining that Obama isn't doing enough for jobs, then you have Republicans all across the country cutting education, and Republicans mocking Obama for saying he wanted ALL American to have the chance for an education.

What are they going to do without an education? Remember, this is the reason business wants to bring in immigrants with degrees, to fill jobs Republicans will never be qualified for.

Yes the home "skooled" christ stains are driving our county back to the dark ages

 

[initforme]

I don't believe you can in 90 percent of cases. White collar jobs tend to pay more than blue collar jobs. You surely can survive off of a policeman's or garbage man's salary but you are doomed not to ever get ahead even if you save save save. If you have a degree for a position that is in demand, you can use it AGAINST competing employers. Without a degree you don't even find one of these jobs. No degree equals lower starting wages. Why would one do that to oneself? You can work your tail off for 80 hours per week without a degree or you can work 40 hours per week for more pay and better benefits. Don't slip into the blue collar abyss.

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

What do you suppose racial set asides are all about?

Buying peace at the expense of merit and innocent victims.

I know plenty of people who have a bullshit degree who make less than people who never went to school.

Seriously a BS in Psych or English Lit isn't going to get you a better paying job than not going to school and working in the trades

They make way less than the trades in fact. I remember when the employees of Powell's Book Store in Portland, Oregon went on strike a few years back. It's gigantic; the biggest book store in the world, selling mostly used books but some new books as well. It's actually a tourist destination for book lovers from all over the world.

The average employee there before the strike held an MA in English, or in literature, or in English literature. That was necessary because of the esoteric knowledge of the art & craft required to deal in the business of books, especially such a huge inventory of books.

There's so many people with MA degrees who want to live in Portland, and so few targeted jobs for such people, they'll take whatever they can get. It took them 6 years to get their MA degrees, then they end up working at Powell's for minimum wage. Powell's was taking advantage of them, to be sure. It's one of the few times I've seen unionization that was legitimate. Though they weren't striking for $100k a years like public employee union goons with a GED. I think they got $15-$16 an hour. That still ain't shit for a city like Portland, but it was twice what they were getting.

I'm not sure if I consider non-degreed programmers tradesmen or professionals. Probably half of each. I do know that I met many such people in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto specifically), who held associate's degrees from community colleges, who were young, who were knocking down major salaries. If a young person was asking my advice on career choice, and if they had some skill in math and a little abstract thinking, that's one of the first places I'd steer them, especially into gaming.

SV is still one of the few places in America that tries to resist the racial set-asides racket. The industry is too competitive and so the thought of bringing on dead wood to gum up the efficiency of the labor force isn't too appealing. Sadly the savages are beating their drums and raising a stink and the fort will soon fall. On the other hand, it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch in that this is what SV should expect for being so massively on the side of Democrats. When you sleep with dogs you're going to get bitten by fleas.

Some small to medium size companies in the computer/IT industry bust themselves up into small consulting companies that are independent but still answer to a mother hub. That way they can get around the bullshit blackmail federal forced hiring set-aside laws. They're hard to enforce in California anyway, because affirmative action preferences in university admissions and state hiring were voted out of existence with a referendum that was passed at least 15 years ago. It was financed and lobbied by California's Chinese population, who were sick and tired of the left's race-baiting industry...that didn't include them, or any Asians for that matter.

Very few blacks and Hispanics go into the hard sciences anyway. They migrate en masse into the social sciences. It's impossible to bullshit and affirmative action your way through a PhD degree in computer science, physics, macro engineering, math, software engineering, IT, etc. Whites, Arabs, Iranians, and Asians populate the hard science occupations. And on top of all that, Silicon Valley is one of the most racially/ethnically diverse communities in the world. The thing they all have in common is that they're smart and they work hard, traits of personality considered evil by the left.

 

[Rikurzhen]

What do you suppose racial set asides are all about?

Buying peace at the expense of merit and innocent victims.

I know plenty of people who have a bullshit degree who make less than people who never went to school.

Seriously a BS in Psych or English Lit isn't going to get you a better paying job than not going to school and working in the trades

They make way less than the trades in fact. I remember when the employees of Powell's Book Store in Portland, Oregon went on strike a few years back. It's gigantic; the biggest book store in the world, selling mostly used books but some new books as well. It's actually a tourist destination for book lovers from all over the world.

The average employee there before the strike held an MA in English, or in literature, or in English literature. That was necessary because of the esoteric knowledge of the art & craft required to deal in the business of books, especially such a huge inventory of books.

There's so many people with MA degrees who want to live in Portland, and so few targeted jobs for such people, they'll take whatever they can get. It took them 6 years to get their MA degrees, then they end up working at Powell's for minimum wage. Powell's was taking advantage of them, to be sure. It's one of the few times I've seen unionization that was legitimate. Though they weren't striking for $100k a years like public employee union goons with a GED. I think they got $15-$16 an hour. That still ain't shit for a city like Portland, but it was twice what they were getting.

I'm not sure if I consider non-degreed programmers tradesmen or professionals. Probably half of each. I do know that I met many such people in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto specifically), who held associate's degrees from community colleges, who were young, who were knocking down major salaries. If a young person was asking my advice on career choice, and if they had some skill in math and a little abstract thinking, that's one of the first places I'd steer them, especially into gaming.

SV is still one of the few places in America that tries to resist the racial set-asides racket. The industry is too competitive and so the thought of bringing on dead wood to gum up the efficiency of the labor force isn't too appealing. Sadly the savages are beating their drums and raising a stink and the fort will soon fall. On the other hand, it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch in that this is what SV should expect for being so massively on the side of Democrats. When you sleep with dogs you're going to get bitten by fleas.

Some small to medium size companies in the computer/IT industry bust themselves up into small consulting companies that are independent but still answer to a mother hub. That way they can get around the bullshit blackmail federal forced hiring set-aside laws. They're hard to enforce in California anyway, because affirmative action preferences in university admissions and state hiring were voted out of existence with a referendum that was passed at least 15 years ago. It was financed and lobbied by California's Chinese population, who were sick and tired of the left's race-baiting industry...that didn't include them, or any Asians for that matter.

Very few blacks and Hispanics go into the hard sciences anyway. They migrate en masse into the social sciences. It's impossible to bullshit and affirmative action your way through a PhD degree in computer science, physics, macro engineering, math, software engineering, IT, etc. Whites, Arabs, Iranians, and Asians populate the hard science occupations. And on top of all that, Silicon Valley is one of the most racially/ethnically diverse communities in the world. The thing they all have in common is that they're smart and they work hard, traits of personality considered evil by the left.

Look at what's going on now, the kowtowing about diversity and the self-abasement of senior executives for failing at having diverse workforces and the pledges to improve the situation. Liberal racism is like an acid - it never stops eating away at success and it will punch through any barriers put up in order to bring about mediocrity.