Can you block economic recovery and still call yourself "Patriotic"?

[Texanmike]

My dream is that one day people will realize that paying your taxes is patriotic.

And that people who are against paying their taxes are anti-American.

The fire department and the police department and the post office and the school system and the EPA and Social Security and Medicare and the interstate highway system and the Hoover Dam and NASA and Seal Team Six are all good things, and they are paid for with our taxes.

So if the super wealthy have to pay a little higher tax rate than the working poor, so be it.

What is more important, that American children get an education, that our people get healthcare, that roads and bridges get fixed, that advanced materials research be done, that our military be supplied with the best equipment, that old people be taken care of, that our debt be paid down, that food and water be safe, that our environment be clean, or that a billionaire gets a new yacht?

What kind of education are American kids getting right now? The problem with the left is if you ask them why education sucks they will tell you its underfunded. You ask them how much they need and they can never tell you. The problem is always that its underfunded.

We don't need the EPA. I have full faith that individual states could handle that better than the federal government. Social security is the worst investment you can make... its even worse than putting your money in a bank. I don't need the USDA either... and I love the buzz word "Yacht". The guy who owns the business building the yacht, the guy who cleans them, the companies that repair them, the resturants on the pier all disagree with you. In fact, they are quite sure that the billionare getting the yacht keeps food on their table and keeps them from being a slave to the entitlement system you promote.

I'll tell you what is not patriotic. Someone who will willingly take money from another American because they didn't prepare themselves to have a life. Someone who stands in line on a cell phone while paying with food stamps. People who get on their laptops to surf the internet while feeding their babies formula, milk and cheese procured with the plunder provided them by the government in the form of WIC. Lets talk about the dad who hits up the bar while his son is getting reduced or free meals at school.

I am not going to tell you what I do for a living. I will tell you that when my ex-wife got pregnant and I could qualify for WIC and food Stamps, I sold my project car instead of becoming a burden on the backs of my fellow Americans. Don't you lecture me about how, when I make it in life... I will be unpatriotic because I don't want to pay for some cheapass's life while he sits around being lazy.


You are right about the Hoover dam, the highway system (to a degree) and the military, to not pay for those things would be unpatriotic... Those are things you can't expect anyone to do themselves.


Mike

 

[Texanmike]

What this country needs isn't more tax cuts or more corporate subsidies. It needs jobs.

We know there is a "skills" gap. This has been referenced many times in several threads.

We know Republicans are slashing education in state after state.

We know Republicans, even before he was sworn in, have said they want this president to fail.

We had a bridge fall down into a river during rush hour and we know that unless we fix our bridges, it won't be the last.

We know our electrical grid is old and failing.

We know our roads have potholes.

We know corporations are sitting on piles of cash.

We know millions of Americans are out of work.

We know Democrats have presented a vision of how to get out of this mess.

We know Republicans have said government can't do anything.

Republicans have said they will block anything this president tries to do.

Even if they keep Obama from being re-elected, they still say government can't do anything.

How will Republicans get Americans to vote for them? So far, we've heard Obama doesn't love this country and corporations are people. If you follow the Republicans plan of ending Medicare, ending Social Security, defunding the Federal Government, removing regulations, taxs for the wealthy, subsidies for companies, slash education and so on.

What's left? What are they going to run one? Clearly everyone sees that just cutting the deficit does nothing without revenue coming in from either a tax increase or taxes from new jobs being created.

The only strategy can't possibly be, "I hope he fails". Because the next question is, "Then what?"

Too bad USMB Republicans can't just answer the question instead of crying, "We don't want to end Medicare". Even telling them, "A voucher program is not Medicare". Or we don't want to end Social Security. Look at what is happening in the stock market. Thank God only some of my 401 is there. And to deny those other things? Why bother? It's what the fight is all about. You might as well deny the Moon.

Well, I for one hope he fails but I've got some news for you, this is gonna suck. We have reached the end of the line and we can't play hid the debt anymore. Time to pay the fiddler. We're going to have to make some cuts and go through the depression we so rightfully deserve.

Mike

National Debt was a bigger share of the GDP after WW2.

To better illustrate the point I was trying to make earlier, a dollar is essentially a promise that at some point in the future a unit of labor (equal to the amount of labor a dollar buys at some point in the future) will be performed on behalf of the owner of said dollar. It doesn't represent work that has been done, it is a promissory note. The thing after WWII is there were a bunch of people with a demand for things and a bunch of infrastructure that desperately needed to be built. Servicemen came home from the war and what did they do? They made babies. There was a need for more and bigger houses to accommodate this. All of the dollars that were promising labor would be done held a certain amount of value.

Where does the demand for labor come from? The housing market is depressed and there are so many houses that are in foreclosure that we're not going to save ourselves by building more... where do you see this miracle recovery coming from.

That's the problem with the fiat currency (and the fractional lending system)... there is so much cash and nowhere for it to go... sure, we can try to speed up the velocity of money by increasing the supply of it... and that works well if there is a demand for labor (dollars, essentially) but our demand for labor is going overseas. This isn't that I want a depression but the money supply has to shrink... there is no way around it. The debt is too high, the rates are too low... we are nearing a breaking point. It is kind of like you have the petal to the metal with regards to promising labor and the breaks on with regards to demand for labor. That translates into an ugly ugly mess. How many more promises for labor to be done can be made before they mean nothing.

Mike

 

[rdean]

here you go!!cut taxes so consumers have more of their own money to invest and spend on goods that are made by producers that will hire people to keep up with the increase in production do to the higher demand for said goods....employe's that will pay income taxes!![libbs should love that]...drill baby drill to lower the cost of production,travel and shipping to free up more capital!!....AND MOST IMPORTANTLY VOTE THE COMMUNIST PARTY OUT OF OFFICE IN 2012...no libbs means good economy!!

You know that cutting taxes is finite. Taxes pay for this government. With no taxes at all there would be no government. Would you want to drive your family around in a car built without regulations? On roads with no speed limits along side anyone who wants to drive? Or eat food that isn't inspected? Are you sure you've thought this all the way through?

And who is it that's said we should have "no taxes"?

Listen, just because citizens call for responsible fiscal policy and a government that isn't bloated and inefficient doesn't mean that they want to get rid of all taxes and all rules and regulations. That's fear mongering on your part. You want people to believe that if ANY regulations are revoked that ALL regulations will be. It's a ridiculous argument to make.

We have a terrible tax code that needs to be fixed.

We have too many ill thought out regulations that harm our competitiveness in a global economy.

Our government is too large, too wasteful, and more interested in maintaining their own power than in what is good for the US.

We have unfunded entitlement programs that will bankrupt us in just a short period of time if we don't reform them.

You keep saying what we have. I wouldn't mind a few examples. Without examples, you are just spewing right wing talking points. And they better be good ones.

 

[rdean]

My dream is that one day people will realize that paying your taxes is patriotic.

And that people who are against paying their taxes are anti-American.

The fire department and the police department and the post office and the school system and the EPA and Social Security and Medicare and the interstate highway system and the Hoover Dam and NASA and Seal Team Six are all good things, and they are paid for with our taxes.

So if the super wealthy have to pay a little higher tax rate than the working poor, so be it.

What is more important, that American children get an education, that our people get healthcare, that roads and bridges get fixed, that advanced materials research be done, that our military be supplied with the best equipment, that old people be taken care of, that our debt be paid down, that food and water be safe, that our environment be clean, or that a billionaire gets a new yacht?

What kind of education are American kids getting right now? The problem with the left is if you ask them why education sucks they will tell you its underfunded. You ask them how much they need and they can never tell you. The problem is always that its underfunded.

We don't need the EPA. I have full faith that individual states could handle that better than the federal government. Social security is the worst investment you can make... its even worse than putting your money in a bank. I don't need the USDA either... and I love the buzz word "Yacht". The guy who owns the business building the yacht, the guy who cleans them, the companies that repair them, the resturants on the pier all disagree with you. In fact, they are quite sure that the billionare getting the yacht keeps food on their table and keeps them from being a slave to the entitlement system you promote.

I'll tell you what is not patriotic. Someone who will willingly take money from another American because they didn't prepare themselves to have a life. Someone who stands in line on a cell phone while paying with food stamps. People who get on their laptops to surf the internet while feeding their babies formula, milk and cheese procured with the plunder provided them by the government in the form of WIC. Lets talk about the dad who hits up the bar while his son is getting reduced or free meals at school.

I am not going to tell you what I do for a living. I will tell you that when my ex-wife got pregnant and I could qualify for WIC and food Stamps, I sold my project car instead of becoming a burden on the backs of my fellow Americans. Don't you lecture me about how, when I make it in life... I will be unpatriotic because I don't want to pay for some cheapass's life while he sits around being lazy.


You are right about the Hoover dam, the highway system (to a degree) and the military, to not pay for those things would be unpatriotic... Those are things you can't expect anyone to do themselves.


Mike

We don't need the EPA? Check out Texas. That huge Republican success story.

Better yet, check out what Texas neighbors are saying:

Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson and state Department of Environmental Quality Director Steve Thompson have expressed in writing their concerns about the number of coal-fired power plants under construction in Texas.

Dec. 25--THIS OKLAHOMA-TEXAS RIVALRY -- with a bit of Nebraska mixed in -- has to do with what blows across the Red River.

Texas environmental regulators earlier this month awarded air permits to an Omaha, Neb., developer of a cleaner coal-fired power plant, allowing construction to begin on a facility near Sweetwater in west Texas.

It's the third such coal plant permit issued this year by the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality. There are at least a dozen new coal-fired power plants either planned or in some stage of construction south of the Sooner State's border.

"The health of Oklahoma residents is put at risk by air pollution crossing our state border," said Bud Scott, president of the Oklahoma Chapter of the Sierra Club. "But not only does Texas air pollution affect our health, it's an economic issue as well."

In September, a number of environmental groups, including the Sierra Club's Oklahoma Chapter, filed a federal lawsuit against a Texas power company claiming it had more than 50,000 violations of air pollution regulations during the past five years at a coal plant in the east Texas city of Longview.

And while that lawsuit continues, several environmental groups sent a notice of intent to sue Tuesday to a Texas company operating a Titus County coal plant in east Texas.

State officials object

It's not just environmental groups objecting to the Texas coal plants.

Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson and state Department of Environmental Quality Director Steve Thompson have expressed in writing their concerns about the number of coal-fired power plants under construction in Texas.

Thompson wrote a letter in April to Texas officials claiming that the commission repeatedly has failed to notify Oklahoma as required by law about any agency action that adversely may affect air quality in neighboring states.

"If ODEQ is not afforded the opportunity to provide comment on all new or modified major sources located in Texas ... then ODEQ will be forced to pursue all available options to ensure that this legal requirement is provided," Thompson wrote.

Edmondson wrote a letter to the regional director for the Environmental Protection Agency in May, saying "there appears to be a concerted effort to rapidly permit and construct additional coal-fired plants" in Texas.

"I am greatly concerned that emissions from these new sources will adversely impact air quality, public health and economic growth in Oklahoma," Edmondson wrote.

Scott, Thompson and Edmondson said an increase in pollution could contribute to cities such as Oklahoma City and Tulsa not attaining National Ambient Air Quality Standards, which would force Oklahoma businesses and local governments to spend money to reduce air pollution.

Emissions from Texas already are reducing visibility in the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge Area, state officials said.

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This is why we need the federal government. To keep the states from going to war. Like so many of their policies, Republicans simply don't have enough foresight to understand "state's disputes". They "imagine" how things will turn out with their "cowboy" policies, but fail to take into consideration "reality".

 

[Chris]

My dream is that one day people will realize that paying your taxes is patriotic.

And that people who are against paying their taxes are anti-American.

The fire department and the police department and the post office and the school system and the EPA and Social Security and Medicare and the interstate highway system and the Hoover Dam and NASA and Seal Team Six are all good things, and they are paid for with our taxes.

So if the super wealthy have to pay a little higher tax rate than the working poor, so be it.

What is more important, that American children get an education, that our people get healthcare, that roads and bridges get fixed, that advanced materials research be done, that our military be supplied with the best equipment, that old people be taken care of, that our debt be paid down, that food and water be safe, that our environment be clean, or that a billionaire gets a new yacht?

What kind of education are American kids getting right now? The problem with the left is if you ask them why education sucks they will tell you its underfunded. You ask them how much they need and they can never tell you. The problem is always that its underfunded.

We don't need the EPA. I have full faith that individual states could handle that better than the federal government. Social security is the worst investment you can make... its even worse than putting your money in a bank. I don't need the USDA either... and I love the buzz word "Yacht". The guy who owns the business building the yacht, the guy who cleans them, the companies that repair them, the resturants on the pier all disagree with you. In fact, they are quite sure that the billionare getting the yacht keeps food on their table and keeps them from being a slave to the entitlement system you promote.

I'll tell you what is not patriotic. Someone who will willingly take money from another American because they didn't prepare themselves to have a life. Someone who stands in line on a cell phone while paying with food stamps. People who get on their laptops to surf the internet while feeding their babies formula, milk and cheese procured with the plunder provided them by the government in the form of WIC. Lets talk about the dad who hits up the bar while his son is getting reduced or free meals at school.

I am not going to tell you what I do for a living. I will tell you that when my ex-wife got pregnant and I could qualify for WIC and food Stamps, I sold my project car instead of becoming a burden on the backs of my fellow Americans. Don't you lecture me about how, when I make it in life... I will be unpatriotic because I don't want to pay for some cheapass's life while he sits around being lazy.


You are right about the Hoover dam, the highway system (to a degree) and the military, to not pay for those things would be unpatriotic... Those are things you can't expect anyone to do themselves.


Mike

This is what the Republican Party boils down to...

Kill the EPA.

Kill Social Security and Medicare.

Don't fund schools.

Thanks for admitting it.

 

[Texanmike]

My dream is that one day people will realize that paying your taxes is patriotic.

And that people who are against paying their taxes are anti-American.

The fire department and the police department and the post office and the school system and the EPA and Social Security and Medicare and the interstate highway system and the Hoover Dam and NASA and Seal Team Six are all good things, and they are paid for with our taxes.

So if the super wealthy have to pay a little higher tax rate than the working poor, so be it.

What is more important, that American children get an education, that our people get healthcare, that roads and bridges get fixed, that advanced materials research be done, that our military be supplied with the best equipment, that old people be taken care of, that our debt be paid down, that food and water be safe, that our environment be clean, or that a billionaire gets a new yacht?

What kind of education are American kids getting right now? The problem with the left is if you ask them why education sucks they will tell you its underfunded. You ask them how much they need and they can never tell you. The problem is always that its underfunded.

We don't need the EPA. I have full faith that individual states could handle that better than the federal government. Social security is the worst investment you can make... its even worse than putting your money in a bank. I don't need the USDA either... and I love the buzz word "Yacht". The guy who owns the business building the yacht, the guy who cleans them, the companies that repair them, the resturants on the pier all disagree with you. In fact, they are quite sure that the billionare getting the yacht keeps food on their table and keeps them from being a slave to the entitlement system you promote.

I'll tell you what is not patriotic. Someone who will willingly take money from another American because they didn't prepare themselves to have a life. Someone who stands in line on a cell phone while paying with food stamps. People who get on their laptops to surf the internet while feeding their babies formula, milk and cheese procured with the plunder provided them by the government in the form of WIC. Lets talk about the dad who hits up the bar while his son is getting reduced or free meals at school.

I am not going to tell you what I do for a living. I will tell you that when my ex-wife got pregnant and I could qualify for WIC and food Stamps, I sold my project car instead of becoming a burden on the backs of my fellow Americans. Don't you lecture me about how, when I make it in life... I will be unpatriotic because I don't want to pay for some cheapass's life while he sits around being lazy.


You are right about the Hoover dam, the highway system (to a degree) and the military, to not pay for those things would be unpatriotic... Those are things you can't expect anyone to do themselves.


Mike

This is what the Republican Party boils down to...

Kill the EPA.

Kill Social Security and Medicare.

Don't fund schools.

Thanks for admitting it.

I'm not a Republican, first of all.

Second you are damn right. Let people buy out of SSI and Medicare. Don't fund schools. Here's an idea, don't spread your legs or your seed until you can afford to.

So how much over the amount that you are forced to give to charity do you give? I'm just a little curious.

As in a country of liberty, every man who is supposed a free agent ought to be his own governor; the legislative power should reside in the whole body of the people. But since this is impossible in large states, and in small ones is subject to many inconveniences, it is fit the people should transact by their representatives what they cannot transact by themselves.

Mike

 

[Texanmike]

This is why we need the federal government. To keep the states from going to war. Like so many of their policies, Republicans simply don't have enough foresight to understand "state's disputes". They "imagine" how things will turn out with their "cowboy" policies, but fail to take into consideration "reality".

So here's the thing. Since we're into condescension, first of all. I'm not a Republican. How have you missed that? Probably because you read states rights and your mind goes numb. Imagine this. The federal government is not all powerful. If we need an EPA... if it is as important as you think it is, then give the federal government the authority via a constitutional amendment. I'll give you an EPA if its constitutional. You can't make a constitutional argument for it though. Or is the constitution only important when I must allow someone who is more liberal than me exercise their right to behave how they want?

Personally, I would be perfectly happy if my state succeeded. I would love to have the freedom to live in a country that wasn't the cesspool that ours is becoming. The even funnier thing is that if you would just let me live my life the way I want to, in my state, then I would agree to let you do the same. I would even vow to lay down my life in defense of your freedom to be what I consider to be a moron, so long as you do the same for me. But no, that's not enough. I have to make that pledge for you anyways even as you demand that I be subject to your rules. You genuinely believe that you are somehow intellectually superior to me, or that I lack foresight. If that's the case then back the hell off and prove to me how poor my decisions are because from my stand point Texas is doing just fine. In fact if we weren't burdened with the immigration shit hole that you have left us with because of the joke of federal border patrol, if we weren't required to pay into the federal government... if we could just manage our own damn affairs... we'd be fine.

The problem is that liberals and conservatives lack the ability to back the hell away. They insist on having these debates on a national level. The liberals can't spell Constitution and the conservatives can't find it. The best are people like rdean and chris... they lack the mental capacity to discuss things so they must begin every conversation with an attack. Vanquish do you think you can teach these kids some manners? They really make liberals look bad.


As for the Oklahoma/Texas issue... the very simple solution, which is unfathomable to you I'm sure, is for Oklahoma to sue Texas.

Mike

 

[BDBoop]

This is why we need the federal government. To keep the states from going to war. Like so many of their policies, Republicans simply don't have enough foresight to understand "state's disputes". They "imagine" how things will turn out with their "cowboy" policies, but fail to take into consideration "reality".

So here's the thing. Since we're into condescension, first of all. I'm not a Republican. How have you missed that? Probably because you read states rights and your mind goes numb. Imagine this. The federal government is not all powerful. If we need an EPA... if it is as important as you think it is, then give the federal government the authority via a constitutional amendment. I'll give you an EPA if its constitutional. You can't make a constitutional argument for it though. Or is the constitution only important when I must allow someone who is more liberal than me exercise their right to behave how they want?

Personally, I would be perfectly happy if my state succeeded. I would love to have the freedom to live in a country that wasn't the cesspool that ours is becoming. The even funnier thing is that if you would just let me live my life the way I want to, in my state, then I would agree to let you do the same. I would even vow to lay down my life in defense of your freedom to be what I consider to be a moron, so long as you do the same for me. But no, that's not enough. I have to make that pledge for you anyways even as you demand that I be subject to your rules. You genuinely believe that you are somehow intellectually superior to me, or that I lack foresight. If that's the case then back the hell off and prove to me how poor my decisions are because from my stand point Texas is doing just fine. In fact if we weren't burdened with the immigration shit hole that you have left us with because of the joke of federal border patrol, if we weren't required to pay into the federal government... if we could just manage our own damn affairs... we'd be fine.

The problem is that liberals and conservatives lack the ability to back the hell away. They insist on having these debates on a national level. The liberals can't spell Constitution and the conservatives can't find it. The best are people like rdean and chris... they lack the mental capacity to discuss things so they must begin every conversation with an attack. Vanquish do you think you can teach these kids some manners? They really make liberals look bad.


As for the Oklahoma/Texas issue... the very simple solution, which is unfathomable to you I'm sure, is for Oklahoma to sue Texas.

Mike

You posting drunk again?

 

[Patrick2]

My dream is that one day people will realize that paying your taxes is patriotic.

And that people who are against paying their taxes are anti-American.

The fire department and the police department and the post office and the school system and the EPA and Social Security and Medicare and the interstate highway system and the Hoover Dam and NASA and Seal Team Six are all good things, and they are paid for with our taxes.

So if the super wealthy have to pay a little higher tax rate than the working poor, so be it.

What is more important, that American children get an education, that our people get healthcare, that roads and bridges get fixed, that advanced materials research be done, that our military be supplied with the best equipment, that old people be taken care of, that our debt be paid down, that food and water be safe, that our environment be clean, or that a billionaire gets a new yacht?

What kind of education are American kids getting right now? The problem with the left is if you ask them why education sucks they will tell you its underfunded. You ask them how much they need and they can never tell you. The problem is always that its underfunded.

We don't need the EPA. I have full faith that individual states could handle that better than the federal government. Social security is the worst investment you can make... its even worse than putting your money in a bank. I don't need the USDA either... and I love the buzz word "Yacht". The guy who owns the business building the yacht, the guy who cleans them, the companies that repair them, the resturants on the pier all disagree with you. In fact, they are quite sure that the billionare getting the yacht keeps food on their table and keeps them from being a slave to the entitlement system you promote.

I'll tell you what is not patriotic. Someone who will willingly take money from another American because they didn't prepare themselves to have a life. Someone who stands in line on a cell phone while paying with food stamps. People who get on their laptops to surf the internet while feeding their babies formula, milk and cheese procured with the plunder provided them by the government in the form of WIC. Lets talk about the dad who hits up the bar while his son is getting reduced or free meals at school.

I am not going to tell you what I do for a living. I will tell you that when my ex-wife got pregnant and I could qualify for WIC and food Stamps, I sold my project car instead of becoming a burden on the backs of my fellow Americans. Don't you lecture me about how, when I make it in life... I will be unpatriotic because I don't want to pay for some cheapass's life while he sits around being lazy.


You are right about the Hoover dam, the highway system (to a degree) and the military, to not pay for those things would be unpatriotic... Those are things you can't expect anyone to do themselves.


Mike

This is what the Republican Party boils down to...

Kill the EPA.

Kill Social Security and Medicare.
Don't fund schools.

Thanks for admitting it.

This is ANOTHER example of the current BALD FACED LIE technique of the leftwing. Remember, it was OBAMA who looted a half billion dollars out of medicare to fund his health care rationing and death panel system.

 

[Texanmike]

This is why we need the federal government. To keep the states from going to war. Like so many of their policies, Republicans simply don't have enough foresight to understand "state's disputes". They "imagine" how things will turn out with their "cowboy" policies, but fail to take into consideration "reality".

So here's the thing. Since we're into condescension, first of all. I'm not a Republican. How have you missed that? Probably because you read states rights and your mind goes numb. Imagine this. The federal government is not all powerful. If we need an EPA... if it is as important as you think it is, then give the federal government the authority via a constitutional amendment. I'll give you an EPA if its constitutional. You can't make a constitutional argument for it though. Or is the constitution only important when I must allow someone who is more liberal than me exercise their right to behave how they want?

Personally, I would be perfectly happy if my state succeeded. I would love to have the freedom to live in a country that wasn't the cesspool that ours is becoming. The even funnier thing is that if you would just let me live my life the way I want to, in my state, then I would agree to let you do the same. I would even vow to lay down my life in defense of your freedom to be what I consider to be a moron, so long as you do the same for me. But no, that's not enough. I have to make that pledge for you anyways even as you demand that I be subject to your rules. You genuinely believe that you are somehow intellectually superior to me, or that I lack foresight. If that's the case then back the hell off and prove to me how poor my decisions are because from my stand point Texas is doing just fine. In fact if we weren't burdened with the immigration shit hole that you have left us with because of the joke of federal border patrol, if we weren't required to pay into the federal government... if we could just manage our own damn affairs... we'd be fine.

The problem is that liberals and conservatives lack the ability to back the hell away. They insist on having these debates on a national level. The liberals can't spell Constitution and the conservatives can't find it. The best are people like rdean and chris... they lack the mental capacity to discuss things so they must begin every conversation with an attack. Vanquish do you think you can teach these kids some manners? They really make liberals look bad.


As for the Oklahoma/Texas issue... the very simple solution, which is unfathomable to you I'm sure, is for Oklahoma to sue Texas.

Mike

You posting drunk again?

Thanks ma'am,

I don't drink. But if you'd like to debate the Constitutionality of any of this you're welcome to be an actual productive member of the discussion.


Mike

 

[Lakhota]

What this country needs isn't more tax cuts or more corporate subsidies. It needs jobs.

We know there is a "skills" gap. This has been referenced many times in several threads.

We know Republicans are slashing education in state after state.

We know Republicans, even before he was sworn in, have said they want this president to fail.

We had a bridge fall down into a river during rush hour and we know that unless we fix our bridges, it won't be the last.

We know our electrical grid is old and failing.

We know our roads have potholes.

We know corporations are sitting on piles of cash.

We know millions of Americans are out of work.

We know Democrats have presented a vision of how to get out of this mess.

We know Republicans have said government can't do anything.

Republicans have said they will block anything this president tries to do.

Even if they keep Obama from being re-elected, they still say government can't do anything.

How will Republicans get Americans to vote for them? So far, we've heard Obama doesn't love this country and corporations are people. If you follow the Republicans plan of ending Medicare, ending Social Security, defunding the Federal Government, removing regulations, taxs for the wealthy, subsidies for companies, slash education and so on.

What's left? What are they going to run one? Clearly everyone sees that just cutting the deficit does nothing without revenue coming in from either a tax increase or taxes from new jobs being created.

The only strategy can't possibly be, "I hope he fails". Because the next question is, "Then what?"

Too bad USMB Republicans can't just answer the question instead of crying, "We don't want to end Medicare". Even telling them, "A voucher program is not Medicare". Or we don't want to end Social Security. Look at what is happening in the stock market. Thank God only some of my 401 is there. And to deny those other things? Why bother? It's what the fight is all about. You might as well deny the Moon.

Right on!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Two up, no recommendations. Two "fails". Not entirely unexpected.

here you go!!cut taxes so consumers have more of their own money to invest and spend on goods that are made by producers that will hire people to keep up with the increase in production do to the higher demand for said goods....employe's that will pay income taxes!![libbs should love that]...drill baby drill to lower the cost of production,travel and shipping to free up more capital!!....AND MOST IMPORTANTLY VOTE THE COMMUNIST PARTY OUT OF OFFICE IN 2012...no libbs means good economy!!

You know that cutting taxes is finite. Taxes pay for this government. With no taxes at all there would be no government. Would you want to drive your family around in a car built without regulations? On roads with no speed limits along side anyone who wants to drive? Or eat food that isn't inspected? Are you sure you've thought this all the way through?

Deany do you think your neighborhood grocer is out to hurt you by selling you rotten fruit? Why do you think that? It sounds like you're paranoid, like the government is the only thing standing between you and a world that wants to hurt you

 

[BDBoop]

So here's the thing. Since we're into condescension, first of all. I'm not a Republican. How have you missed that? Probably because you read states rights and your mind goes numb. Imagine this. The federal government is not all powerful. If we need an EPA... if it is as important as you think it is, then give the federal government the authority via a constitutional amendment. I'll give you an EPA if its constitutional. You can't make a constitutional argument for it though. Or is the constitution only important when I must allow someone who is more liberal than me exercise their right to behave how they want?

Personally, I would be perfectly happy if my state succeeded. I would love to have the freedom to live in a country that wasn't the cesspool that ours is becoming. The even funnier thing is that if you would just let me live my life the way I want to, in my state, then I would agree to let you do the same. I would even vow to lay down my life in defense of your freedom to be what I consider to be a moron, so long as you do the same for me. But no, that's not enough. I have to make that pledge for you anyways even as you demand that I be subject to your rules. You genuinely believe that you are somehow intellectually superior to me, or that I lack foresight. If that's the case then back the hell off and prove to me how poor my decisions are because from my stand point Texas is doing just fine. In fact if we weren't burdened with the immigration shit hole that you have left us with because of the joke of federal border patrol, if we weren't required to pay into the federal government... if we could just manage our own damn affairs... we'd be fine.

The problem is that liberals and conservatives lack the ability to back the hell away. They insist on having these debates on a national level. The liberals can't spell Constitution and the conservatives can't find it. The best are people like rdean and chris... they lack the mental capacity to discuss things so they must begin every conversation with an attack. Vanquish do you think you can teach these kids some manners? They really make liberals look bad.


As for the Oklahoma/Texas issue... the very simple solution, which is unfathomable to you I'm sure, is for Oklahoma to sue Texas.

Mike

You posting drunk again?

Thanks ma'am,

I don't drink. But if you'd like to debate the Constitutionality of any of this you're welcome to be an actual productive member of the discussion.


Mike

Okay. Well - I'm pretty sure you meant you'd love for your state to 'secede' as opposed to succeed.

What happens after that?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

My dream is that one day people will realize that paying your taxes is patriotic.

And that people who are against paying their taxes are anti-American.

The fire department and the police department and the post office and the school system and the EPA and Social Security and Medicare and the interstate highway system and the Hoover Dam and NASA and Seal Team Six are all good things, and they are paid for with our taxes.

So if the super wealthy have to pay a little higher tax rate than the working poor, so be it.

What is more important, that American children get an education, that our people get healthcare, that roads and bridges get fixed, that advanced materials research be done, that our military be supplied with the best equipment, that old people be taken care of, that our debt be paid down, that food and water be safe, that our environment be clean, or that a billionaire gets a new yacht?

What kind of education are American kids getting right now? The problem with the left is if you ask them why education sucks they will tell you its underfunded. You ask them how much they need and they can never tell you. The problem is always that its underfunded.

We don't need the EPA. I have full faith that individual states could handle that better than the federal government. Social security is the worst investment you can make... its even worse than putting your money in a bank. I don't need the USDA either... and I love the buzz word "Yacht". The guy who owns the business building the yacht, the guy who cleans them, the companies that repair them, the resturants on the pier all disagree with you. In fact, they are quite sure that the billionare getting the yacht keeps food on their table and keeps them from being a slave to the entitlement system you promote.

I'll tell you what is not patriotic. Someone who will willingly take money from another American because they didn't prepare themselves to have a life. Someone who stands in line on a cell phone while paying with food stamps. People who get on their laptops to surf the internet while feeding their babies formula, milk and cheese procured with the plunder provided them by the government in the form of WIC. Lets talk about the dad who hits up the bar while his son is getting reduced or free meals at school.

I am not going to tell you what I do for a living. I will tell you that when my ex-wife got pregnant and I could qualify for WIC and food Stamps, I sold my project car instead of becoming a burden on the backs of my fellow Americans. Don't you lecture me about how, when I make it in life... I will be unpatriotic because I don't want to pay for some cheapass's life while he sits around being lazy.


You are right about the Hoover dam, the highway system (to a degree) and the military, to not pay for those things would be unpatriotic... Those are things you can't expect anyone to do themselves.


Mike

This is what the Republican Party boils down to...

Kill the EPA.

Kill Social Security and Medicare.

Don't fund schools.

Thanks for admitting it.

The EPA is EnviroMarxist

Social Security is totally broke, Medicare is next

We want to eliminate the US Department of Education because we're tired of paying to graduate vote cancelling morons like yourself

 

[Texanmike]

And while we're on SSI, lets be frank about this. The people who claim to be owed SSI already spent it. They elected people who "borrowed money" from it. They didn't just elect them, they re-elected them, and re-elected them and then did it again. Its not that I want to kill SSI, its that it has already been done. To everyone who screams "Oh, I contributed for XX years, now I want my money" the actual response should be, "Well, you've spent it. You elected politicians, Democrats, Republicans and Independents who spent your money. Sure they promised to put it back, but they never did. We're sorry, but we can't actually give you what we promised because you authorized us to spend that money on something else".

This is kind of like my 8 year old son, who I give a $5/week allowance, telling me he wants to save $4/week for 5 weeks for a skateboard. Now at the end of the first week, he puts $4 in and takes his dollar. He decides he wants to buy ice cream from the ice cream truck and its a $2.25. So he comes and gets the $1.25 from me and goes about his way. Now after the 5 weeks he comes to me and demands his $20 for a skate board. When I inform him that he only has $13.75 he gets all salty. "But Daaaad, I've been saving for 5 weeks. You told me that if I saved $4/week for 5 weeks, that I would have $20". Obviously he didn't think that I was deducting his $1.25/week for ice cream but the bottom line is that the money had to come from somewhere. As a result he still has money to save.

That is the same thing with social security. I'm sorry but I know for a fact that for at least the last 40+ years we've been raiding social security and it probably goes back farther than that. How can you accuse me of wanting to "kill" social security when it has been on the chopping blocks for years?

Mike

 

[FactFinder]

That's the problem with the fiat currency (and the fractional lending system)... there is so much cash and nowhere for it to go... sure, we can try to speed up the velocity of money by increasing the supply of it... and that works well if there is a demand for labor (dollars, essentially) but our demand for labor is going overseas. This isn't that I want a depression but the money supply has to shrink... there is no way around it. The debt is too high, the rates are too low... we are nearing a breaking point. It is kind of like you have the petal to the metal with regards to promising labor and the breaks on with regards to demand for labor. That translates into an ugly ugly mess. How many more promises for labor to be done can be made before they mean nothing.

That is the kind of thinking that has us in a quagmire. It is the 'group think' mentality. F' the fiat thing. F' the hoarders tryin' to hold onto their lazy, no contribution position. The money supply has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of, do we have work that needs to be done? Look around ya. Hell yes! It is time to move on from the establishment, holding onto for dear life to their less than contributory positons. If they want to live in fear perhaps it is justified in their case only, cuz they ain't doin' nuttin'

 

[Texanmike]

You posting drunk again?

Thanks ma'am,

I don't drink. But if you'd like to debate the Constitutionality of any of this you're welcome to be an actual productive member of the discussion.


Mike

Okay. Well - I'm pretty sure you meant you'd love for your state to 'secede' as opposed to succeed.

What happens after that?

You are correct.

The point was I would rather stay in a union of sovereign states, like we were designed and not be subject to the trials and whims of other states. If we did secede, that's probably about what would happen. Do you really think that if Texas left the union that anything would change as far as relationships between Texas and the US? I'm pretty sure that most things would stay the same. We have common heritage, family ties. I don't see a great war or anything, and I see them being allies almost immediately. That's not what I want though. I was really calling for a return to federalism instead of nationalism. I'm tired of having debates about healthcare and same sex marriage on a national scale. Let me do, in Texas, what it is I want to do. Let people in Nebraska, and Colorado and Cali and Florida do as they want. If you can't get 75% of the states to agree to one centralized solution then don't make a policy. We were left this great document that outlined exactly how this works... Exactly what powers we were going to grant to the central authority. And what have we done? We have called for every little minute issue to be handled at the national level. Is there anyone else that thinks that if we had liberal and conservative states that were allowed to practice what they want in their daily lives, that we would probably not have as much bickering? I mean if you didn't think that you were defending yourself from my edict, brought upon you by Mordor on the Potomac, that you would stop attacking me for the way I want to live? If you didn't feel that if I got my way of life that I would suddenly turn around and mandate the same for yours? Hell, if I lived in a state that had low taxes and very few entitlements and the economy in my state was struggling, do you not think that if my neighbor's system was working that I wouldn't try to emulate them?

Seriously. This one size fits all politics is getting old.

Mike

 

[FactFinder]

Go ahead secede. Maybe Mexico wiil take you blokes in.

 

[Texanmike]

That's the problem with the fiat currency (and the fractional lending system)... there is so much cash and nowhere for it to go... sure, we can try to speed up the velocity of money by increasing the supply of it... and that works well if there is a demand for labor (dollars, essentially) but our demand for labor is going overseas. This isn't that I want a depression but the money supply has to shrink... there is no way around it. The debt is too high, the rates are too low... we are nearing a breaking point. It is kind of like you have the petal to the metal with regards to promising labor and the breaks on with regards to demand for labor. That translates into an ugly ugly mess. How many more promises for labor to be done can be made before they mean nothing.

That is the kind of thinking that has us in a quagmire. It is the 'group think' mentality. F' the fiat thing. F' the hoarders tryin' to hold onto their lazy, no contribution position. The money supply has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of, do we have work that needs to be done? Look around ya. Hell yes! It is time to move on from the establishment, holding onto for dear life to their less than contributory positons. If they want to live in fear perhaps it is justified in their case only, cuz they ain't doin' nuttin'

The money supply has everything to do with it. M2 is over 10x what M1 was... M3 is about 3x what M2 is... that means that if you "generate" 1T for the sake of a bailout it is actually 30T in loanable money (it can go beyond m3 but I'm not going to stretch it out beyond that.) What that translates into is a bunch of promised work in the future but there is only so much work to be done. Since the dollar is just a medium for exchanging work, the inflation is rampant. We don't need homes built, and while there are some roads that we can repair there just isn't that much work to be done. We have added as much as 30T in money (its still part of the banks right now but it is coming) that can be spent.

One of the ways to prevent the problem from getting worse was to let more and more foreclosures happen. We could literally undo some of the mistakes of the past.

Here's a model that's easy to follow:

Demand is the desire to buy and the ability to pay. By increasing the money supply and lowering the credit scores (ARM's amyone?) that are necessary to buy a house (not to mention first time buyers credits etc) you increase the number of eligible purchasers and you also give them more money to spend. A $100k house suddenly stands go go for (in some places) 4 or 5x that amount because of the increased demand. Well some guy borrows the money to buy the house for $300k. He is able to do that as a result of the fractional lending system which only requires that a bank have about 10% (its lower I know, this is math friendly this way) of the cash that it loans out. Now that extra $200k isn't actually real money. It is just kind of a vapor credit known as M2 money (or M(more) money) So he's in this ARM and when his payment balloons up 30% and he gets foreclosed on the bank has to take the house to auction. They might get 60-80k for which means you actually killed $220k that didn't exist. Instead, we came up with tarp and the homeowners buying credit to keep the prices up and the increase in a supply of money. Not good...

Mike

 

[Texanmike]

Go ahead secede. Maybe Mexico wiil take you blokes in.

You missed the point. That one word evokes so many emotions that people can't even see straight to finish reading a paragraph.

mike