Can we compare the PLO , including Hamas and Fatah the same as

[Kondor3]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

 

[Penelope]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Your anti-sematic.

 

[montelatici]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Who is we?

 

[Kondor3]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Who is we?

"We" = Americans.

As evidenced by poll after poll after poll after poll, regarding support for Israel, over the so-called Palestinians...

Americans Sympathies for Israel Match All-Time High

 

[Kondor3]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Your anti-sematic.

Pot, meet kettle...

 

[Penelope]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Your anti-sematic.

Pot, meet kettle...

Not really, I take each person individually, but on a whole one can take the whole of Israel's gov. as very savage, also I do not believe most Americans are pro Israel and anti Palestine.

 

[Penelope]

A few bad Germans did not make all German people bad. That is wacko thinking. Do you really think all Americans in Iraq were killers, as we attacked Iraq, remember. They only did what they were told and then they fought to survive. I am beginning to believe a lot of men, Americans included love war, they think its like cowboy and Indian.

 

[Kondor3]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Your anti-sematic.

Pot, meet kettle...

Not really, I take each person individually, but on a whole one can take the whole of Israel's gov. as very savage, also I do not believe most Americans are pro Israel and anti Palestine.

Yes. We all understand, that that is the way in which you perceive yourself. I'm sure some of your pro-Palestinian compatriots will also be happy to chime-in with collaborating opinion. However, remarking thus does not render it thus.

 

[montelatici]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Who is we?

"We" = Americans.

As evidenced by poll after poll after poll after poll, regarding support for Israel, over the so-called Palestinians...

Americans Sympathies for Israel Match All-Time High

Of course, brainwashed people will believe the propaganda. The rest of the world overwhelmingly supports the Palistinians, including Europe.

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Kondor3]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Who is we?

"We" = Americans.

As evidenced by poll after poll after poll after poll, regarding support for Israel, over the so-called Palestinians...

Americans Sympathies for Israel Match All-Time High

Of course, brainwashed people will believe the propaganda. The rest of the world overwhelmingly supports the Palistinians, including Europe.

Much of the rest of the world is obliged to kiss Arab ass, in order to keep the oil flowing.

As to the Europeans, well, those poor Euro-Trash have made the mistake of letting Islam get a solid toe-hold upon the European continent.

Now, they're paying the price, including having to sooth Muslim sensibilities, when crafting or sustaining foreign policy.

Something which Americans do not intend to allow to happen, here.

It's not a matter of brainwashing.

It's a matter of being entirely free to call 'em as we see 'em, and to the Devil with the consequences.

God, I love this country, at times like this.

 

[Coyote]

He was a changed man, of course about 30 years older of hard labor. Without the new Pres. who had him released and worked with him, the apartheid would not of ended with just him out of prison, it took two on the opposite side. I have seen nothing where the Israel gov has been really willing to work with Hamas, or the PLO, they have just announce more apt building, and last month the arrested about 350 more Pals, and even a girl the age of 14 in prison for throwing rocks.

Also you saying that Mandela was wrong for what he and many did, revolted , and well that is like saying they should of just laid down and be treated like second rate citizens. At that rate we'd still have slaves down south in the USA and segregation on buses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._de_Klerk

De Klerk brokered the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supported the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

No. I'm not saying Mandela was wrong for having revolted.

I'm saying terrorism - against innocent people - was wrong.

Mandella made up for that by his message and the remainder of life pushing for reconciliation OVER further violence. His actions united his country and earned him the respect of both blacks and whites.

In terms of Hamas - what specifically have they done for reconciliation? Have they renounced violence? Have they recognized Israel's right to exist?

Granted Israel is no angel, but you're making comparisons with Mandela/ANC and Hamas and Fatah. What actions has Hamas engaged in other than terrorism, that is comparable to ANC? Who is Hamas' Mandela?

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

 

[Coyote]

From the NYT printed in 1990:

It is interesting to note that the ANC was also at war with another non-white liberation group, much like Mamas versus Fatah.

"Why Won't Mandela Renounce Violence?

Why Won t Mandela Renounce Violence - NYTimes.com

Interesting....point taken. Mandela did not renounce violence until he was unconditionally freed.

The Palestinians lack a Mandela and the Israeli's lack a de Klerk to move the process forward.

Hamas refuses to even recognize Israel's right to exist as a state - who in Hamas is comparable to Mandela? Even in prison, Mandela was a pivotal figure.

I see no such potential for peace in Hamas.

 

[Penelope]

He was a changed man, of course about 30 years older of hard labor. Without the new Pres. who had him released and worked with him, the apartheid would not of ended with just him out of prison, it took two on the opposite side. I have seen nothing where the Israel gov has been really willing to work with Hamas, or the PLO, they have just announce more apt building, and last month the arrested about 350 more Pals, and even a girl the age of 14 in prison for throwing rocks.

Also you saying that Mandela was wrong for what he and many did, revolted , and well that is like saying they should of just laid down and be treated like second rate citizens. At that rate we'd still have slaves down south in the USA and segregation on buses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._de_Klerk

De Klerk brokered the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supported the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

No. I'm not saying Mandela was wrong for having revolted.

I'm saying terrorism - against innocent people - was wrong.

Mandella made up for that by his message and the remainder of life pushing for reconciliation OVER further violence. His actions united his country and earned him the respect of both blacks and whites.

In terms of Hamas - what specifically have they done for reconciliation? Have they renounced violence? Have they recognized Israel's right to exist?

Granted Israel is no angel, but you're making comparisons with Mandela/ANC and Hamas and Fatah. What actions has Hamas engaged in other than terrorism, that is comparable to ANC? Who is Hamas' Mandela?

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

the ANC was anti apartheid , so no it was not like Israel. That is true.

 

[Coyote]

the African National Congress? of which Nelson Mandela and others including some Jews were members of, and of course some Jews were against such as the prosecuting attorney Percy Yutar.

I found it funny as the 6 Jews who were arrested, three escaped, two not charged and one went to a white prison where he got the first half of his law degree and did spend 22 years.

So my question can we compare the two? in my opinion I think so.

Yes as they are all terrorist organisations, with the ANC being amongst the worst for mass murdering their own people. The UN should get its head round terrorism and proclaim open season on all terrorist groups as stated in a Resolution made by the full UN member states. So if one state says another is terrorist then the others must side with them or the state does not go on the list. No Veto's allowed and a 75% majority needed of all member states. Then the list sent to the ICC for placing in International law.

Are you still calling the ANC a terrorist group?

 

[Coyote]

Moderator note - this topic is posted in I/P, which is under Zone 2 - that means posts need to contain some content relevant to the topic under discussion. There's a bit of wiggle room for chit chat, but let's not derail the topic please.

 

[Coyote]

He was a changed man, of course about 30 years older of hard labor. Without the new Pres. who had him released and worked with him, the apartheid would not of ended with just him out of prison, it took two on the opposite side. I have seen nothing where the Israel gov has been really willing to work with Hamas, or the PLO, they have just announce more apt building, and last month the arrested about 350 more Pals, and even a girl the age of 14 in prison for throwing rocks.

Also you saying that Mandela was wrong for what he and many did, revolted , and well that is like saying they should of just laid down and be treated like second rate citizens. At that rate we'd still have slaves down south in the USA and segregation on buses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._de_Klerk

De Klerk brokered the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supported the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

No. I'm not saying Mandela was wrong for having revolted.

I'm saying terrorism - against innocent people - was wrong.

Mandella made up for that by his message and the remainder of life pushing for reconciliation OVER further violence. His actions united his country and earned him the respect of both blacks and whites.

In terms of Hamas - what specifically have they done for reconciliation? Have they renounced violence? Have they recognized Israel's right to exist?

Granted Israel is no angel, but you're making comparisons with Mandela/ANC and Hamas and Fatah. What actions has Hamas engaged in other than terrorism, that is comparable to ANC? Who is Hamas' Mandela?

Who is Israel's Mandela? Terrorism against innocent people is still wrong.

Of course it is. But you were comparing Fatah and Hamas to ANC, not Israel.

the ANC was anti apartheid , so no it was not like Israel. That is true.

Israel has very real inequities between it's treatment of Jewish citizens and it's Arab citizens, it occupies the Palestinians and enforces military law over civilians there, even children. BUT - this is a big but - it's not apartheid. It's unjust and unequal, but apartheid went much further: Apartheid - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Phoenall]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Who is we?

The non muslims of course, as the muslims are exempted from putting anyone on the list being terrorists by nature and religion

 

[Phoenall]

Israel would go on the terrorist list under your rules, Phoney. LOL

Yeah, but we control The List, so we put on it, those we don't like, and leave off, those we do like.

We like Jews much better than we like Muslims.

Rather like preferring Intelligent People over Neanderthals.

Entirely understandable.

Who is we?

"We" = Americans.

As evidenced by poll after poll after poll after poll, regarding support for Israel, over the so-called Palestinians...

Americans Sympathies for Israel Match All-Time High

Of course, brainwashed people will believe the propaganda. The rest of the world overwhelmingly supports the Palistinians, including Europe.

STOP LYING I live in Europe and believe me the Europeans hate all muslims . It is the neo Marxist left that is siding with the Palestinians and they are being removed one by one from any position of power

From the NYT printed in 1990:

It is interesting to note that the ANC was also at war with another non-white liberation group, much like Mamas versus Fatah.

"Why Won't Mandela Renounce Violence?

Why Won t Mandela Renounce Violence - NYTimes.com

Interesting....point taken. Mandela did not renounce violence until he was unconditionally freed.

The Palestinians lack a Mandela and the Israeli's lack a de Klerk to move the process forward.

Hamas refuses to even recognize Israel's right to exist as a state - who in Hamas is comparable to Mandela? Even in prison, Mandela was a pivotal figure.

I see no such potential for peace in Hamas.

Actually he never renounced violence and terrorism at all, he did the same as the Palestinians did and demanded conditions and then reneged. He was the cause of the murders of thousands of black South Africans, carried out by his wife's "football team" .

 

[Challenger]

He was a changed man, of course about 30 years older of hard labor. Without the new Pres. who had him released and worked with him, the apartheid would not of ended with just him out of prison, it took two on the opposite side. I have seen nothing where the Israel gov has been really willing to work with Hamas, or the PLO, they have just announce more apt building, and last month the arrested about 350 more Pals, and even a girl the age of 14 in prison for throwing rocks.

Also you saying that Mandela was wrong for what he and many did, revolted , and well that is like saying they should of just laid down and be treated like second rate citizens. At that rate we'd still have slaves down south in the USA and segregation on buses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._de_Klerk

De Klerk brokered the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supported the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

No. I'm not saying Mandela was wrong for having revolted.

I'm saying terrorism - against innocent people - was wrong.

Mandella made up for that by his message and the remainder of life pushing for reconciliation OVER further violence. His actions united his country and earned him the respect of both blacks and whites.

In terms of Hamas - what specifically have they done for reconciliation? Have they renounced violence? Have they recognized Israel's right to exist?

Granted Israel is no angel, but you're making comparisons with Mandela/ANC and Hamas and Fatah. What actions has Hamas engaged in other than terrorism, that is comparable to ANC? Who is Hamas' Mandela?

Aren't you putting the cart before the horse here? Throughout recorded history, no-one has ever made peace with "partners" or "renouncers of violence" nor has any "reconciliation" occurred, prior to the end of hostilities. It is a truism that seems to be overlooked by posters on this forum, "You make peace with your enemies not your friends;" you don't set pre-conditions, you don't demand your enemy gives you something, without you giving nothing in return.

Negotiations, true negotiations in good faith on both sides brings lasting peace, a renunciation of violence and eventually, reconcilliation. So far there is no evidence the Zionists have ever negotiated in good faith, with the possible exception of Yitzhak Rabin. Mandella made it work in South Africa because there was a will on both sides to resolve the dispute; there is no will on the part of the Zionists and consequently no reason for the Palestinians to consider stopping their efforts to resist the occupation of their land.