Call Apartheid in Israel by Its Name

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, almost right --- pretty damn close actually.

(COMMENT)

Unless there are preemptive or predetermined international agreement/instructions, advanced domestic coordination, and/or treaty requirements, --- all private property (tangible/intangible) is just that. War, Conflict, it makes no matter. The property goes with the owner.

State Property (tangible), profit (earned/owed revenue streams) and debt (outstanding credits and obligations/contractual terms/ principal and interest) are relinquished (transferred/assumed) with the establishment of governmental control and sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R

This is confusing. How then was Israel able to legally confiscate land under the Absentee landowner rules?

At no point in any of the Arab wars of aggression was any country constrained to not gain land through warfare.

That was a UN Arab block move retroactive to the Arab aggression of 1967 after Jordan lost the rest of the Israeli mandated area west of the Jordan river.

So at the time Israel won land in a defensive action it was perfectly legal for it to keep it.

So the question becomes, are there any other examples of the UN retroactively creating a law that targets just one country and attempts to force them to relinquish a defensive stance in an active war ?

Retroactive?

Targeting just one country?

I don't know why I'm doing your homework for you but yes, retroactively

And yes targeting just one country while in the middle of a war.

The 1967 situation stabilized in June 11 1967. When the UN brokered a cease fire.

On November 22 1967 the UNSC then passed resolution 242, a non-binding resolution which demanded that Israel withdraw from its defensive positions and allow the Arabs to return to their previously illegally held positions

See
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjLwN_gqq3LAhVBt4MKHYPLAokQFggjMAE&url=https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/7D35E1F729DF491C85256EE700686136&usg=AFQjCNEBfvcb7Pa44oqYK4equwojBADcaQ&sig2=_B8bNhi22CnMy_SPOddksw&bvm=bv.116274245,d.amc

Now as I recall ;--) June comes BEFORE November on the calendar

Ergo the stipulation that Israel return to its former position and give up its improved defensive stature was retroactivly applied.

And yes, ONLY Israel is mentioned in the resolution .

So, up until then, no other country has been required to return territory it gained in conflict?

I don't think so. Or at least thats how 242 is widely interpreted. No acquisition of land through force of arms.

The concept didn't hit international law until the ICC established the Rome Statutes in about 1988. But all in all the 67 war was the first instance where a country was demanded to give up a defensive position while still engaged in war.
 
This is confusing. How then was Israel able to legally confiscate land under the Absentee landowner rules?

At no point in any of the Arab wars of aggression was any country constrained to not gain land through warfare.

That was a UN Arab block move retroactive to the Arab aggression of 1967 after Jordan lost the rest of the Israeli mandated area west of the Jordan river.

So at the time Israel won land in a defensive action it was perfectly legal for it to keep it.

So the question becomes, are there any other examples of the UN retroactively creating a law that targets just one country and attempts to force them to relinquish a defensive stance in an active war ?

Retroactive?

Targeting just one country?

I don't know why I'm doing your homework for you but yes, retroactively

And yes targeting just one country while in the middle of a war.

The 1967 situation stabilized in June 11 1967. When the UN brokered a cease fire.

On November 22 1967 the UNSC then passed resolution 242, a non-binding resolution which demanded that Israel withdraw from its defensive positions and allow the Arabs to return to their previously illegally held positions

See
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjLwN_gqq3LAhVBt4MKHYPLAokQFggjMAE&url=https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/7D35E1F729DF491C85256EE700686136&usg=AFQjCNEBfvcb7Pa44oqYK4equwojBADcaQ&sig2=_B8bNhi22CnMy_SPOddksw&bvm=bv.116274245,d.amc

Now as I recall ;--) June comes BEFORE November on the calendar

Ergo the stipulation that Israel return to its former position and give up its improved defensive stature was retroactivly applied.

And yes, ONLY Israel is mentioned in the resolution .

So, up until then, no other country has been required to return territory it gained in conflict?

I don't think so. Or at least thats how 242 is widely interpreted. No acquisition of land through force of arms.

The concept didn't hit international law until the ICC established the Rome Statutes in about 1988. But all in all the 67 war was the first instance where a country was demanded to give up a defensive position while still engaged in war.

No, it sounds to me that it was required to return the territories it had taken AND the other countries were required to make peace and recognize Israel's sovereignty and right to exist peacefully.
 
Even if thats accurate and once again I don't think we can take wiki all that seriously, the war never ended and Israel's right to defend itself is much better defined in the UN charter than is any requirement to abandon a defensive position in the middle of a war.

Why don't we take a look at the entire document

Quote

Resolution 242 (1967)

of 22 November 1967



The Security Council,


Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,


Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,


Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,


1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:


(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;


(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;


2. Affirms further the necessity


(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;


(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;


(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;


3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;


4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

Adopted unanimously at the 1382nd meeting.

End Quote

So exactly as I said the resolution singles out Israel. Singles out Israel to abandon its defensive position in the middle of a war. and

Were is the previous mention that land acquired in war is illegal previous to this date ?

Quote

Professor, Judge Schwebel, a former President of the International Court of Justice (ICJ), explains that the principle of "acquisition of territory by war is inadmissible" must be read together with other principles: 4

"... namely, that no legal right shall spring from a wrong, and the Charter principle that the Members of the United Nations shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."

Simply stated: Arab illegal aggression against the territorial integrity and political independence of Israel, can not and should not be rewarded.

Judge Sir Elihu Lauterpacht, Judge ad hoc of the International Court of Justice, argued in 1968 that: 5

"... territorial change cannot properly take place as a result of the 'unlawful' use of force. But to omit the word 'unlawful' is to change the substantive content of the rule and to turn an important safeguard of legal principle into an aggressor's charter. For if force can never be used to effect lawful territory change, then, if territory has once changed hands as a result of the unlawful use of force, the illegitimacy of the position thus established is sterilized by the prohibition upon the use of force to restore the lawful sovereign. This cannot be regarded as reasonable or correct."

Professor Julius Stone, a leading authority on the Law of Nations, stated: 6

"Territorial Rights Under International Law.... By their [Arab countries] armed attacks against the State of Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973, and by various acts of belligerency throughout this period, these Arab states flouted their basic obligations as United Nations members to refrain from threat or use of force against Israel's territorial integrity and political independence. These acts were in flagrant violation inter alia of Article 2(4) and paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of the same article."

Columbia University Law Professor George Fletcher further clarified those points, after former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Israel's occupation of lands acquired in the 1967 Six-Day War "illegal." 7

"Annan, Fletcher suggested, is trying to redefine the Middle East conflict by calling "Israel's occupation of lands acquired in the 1967 Six-Day War 'illegal.' 8 A new and provocative label of 'illegality' is now out of the chute and running loose, ready to wreak damage. The worst prospect is that Palestinians will dig in with a new feeling of righteousness and believe that the international community will force Israel to withdraw from its 'illegal occupation.'... Israel's presence in the occupied territories is consistent with international law. In this context, the choice of the words 'illegal occupation' is a perilous threat to the diplomatic search for peace."

Nearly all of the above legal commentary regarding 'wars of aggression' were written long before the Palestinian Authority, a semi-autonomous political entity, launched a vicious guerilla war against Israel in October 2000, but the insights and opinions voiced, beg the question - whether Palestinians as well should not be considered accountable for their repeated aggression when it comes to setting "secure and recognized borders"?

End Quote
 
Last edited:
Coyote, et al,

It is always helpful to speak to the people who wrote a document to actually understand what the purpose and intent was for the writing.

“The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council. I formulated the Security Council Resolution. Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders. The proposal said ‘Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied,’ and not from ‘the’ territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories.” Quote From: Lord George A. Brown, British Foreign Secretary from 1966 to 1968, who helped Draft Resolution 242,


According to the resolution: United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Israel was not "singled out". The resolution called on all participating states:

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."
(COMMENT)

Well this is very specific and politically crafted language that sounds misleading. Understanding the intent of UNSC Res 242:

“Five-and-a-half months of vehement public diplomacy in 1967 made it perfectly clear what the missing definite article in Resolution 242 means. Ingeniously drafted resolutions calling for withdrawals from ‘all’ the territories were defeated in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the ‘fragile’ and ‘vulnerable’ Armistice Demarcation Lines, but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called ‘secure and recognized’ boundaries, agreed to by the parties. In negotiating such agreements, the parties should take into account, among other factors, security considerations, access to the international waterways of the region, and, of course, their respective legal claims.” Quote From: Eugene Rostow, Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs from 1966-1969, who helped draft Resolution 242.

It also states this:
John McHugo says that by the 1920s, international law no longer recognized that a state could acquire title to territory by conquest.[17] Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations requires all members to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.[18]
(COMMENT)

Yes I've heard, over and over again, this explanation. But it is not correct. The phrase "acquire title to territory by conquest" does not mean territory secured in the process of a defense or by treaty in surrender. Even the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) divided up the Ottoman Empire that had maintain the territories for 800 years or more. By 1920 (as John McHugo, points out) you must remember that the San Remo Convention of the Principle Allied Powers was meeting and crafting the language for the Mandate for Palestine. (McHugo is just plain wrong.) Even today a century later, the McHugo Concept is not made its way into customary law. One needs only look at the events of the events of the Russian - Crimean dispute and the 2014 events where Russia acquired the Crimea and nullified the "right to self-determination."

Yes, you have correctly quoted Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. But this aspect of the Charter is no more applicable to the 1967 War (defending against an eminent attack) than it was when the Arab League (5 nations simultaneously) attacked Israel in 1948. In 1967, three countries of the Arab League were staging forces in preparation to invade Israel yet again:

• 8 Brigades from Syria in the North
• 10 Brigades from Jordan in the center and East
• 100,000 troops, 900 tanks and 800 artillery pieces from the sourth

Now Article 2(4) does not over rule Article 51 (Self-Defense).

Michael Lynk says that article 2 of the Charter embodied a prevailing legal principle that there could be "no title by conquest". He says that principle had been expressed through numerous international conferences, doctrines and treaties since the late 19th Century. Lynk cites the examples of the First International Conference of American States in 1890; the United States Stimson Doctrine of 1932; the 1932 League of Nations resolution on Japanese aggression in China; the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936; and the Atlantic Charter of 1941.[19] Surya Sharma says that a war in self-defense cannot result in acquisition of title by conquest. He says that even if a war is lawful in origin it cannot exceed the limits of legitimate self-defense.[20]
(COMMENT)

You will notice that in no instance, does Surya Sharma (who writes his book over a century after the First International Conference of American States in 1890, make a quote. Why, because it is simply not true to form in its meaning. The United States alone, had several exchanges in which territory was acquired as a result of a military outcome:

West Florida
  • Declared to be a U.S. possession in 1810 after the territory had declared its independence from Spain and US Forces took take control 6 weeks later. General Andrew Jackson accepted the delivery of West Florida from its Spanish governor on July 17, 1821.
Texas
Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines
Cuba
  • Under the 1898 Treaty of Paris, Spain relinquished all claim of sovereignty over and title to Cuba, with the island to be occupied by the United States.
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands
The Atlantic Charter of 1941 is really quite short.


Atlantic Charter
AUGUST 14, 1941


The President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, representing His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, being met together, deem it right to make known certain common principles in the national policies of their respective countries on which they base their hopes for a better future for the world.

First, their countries seek no aggrandizement, territorial or other;

Second, they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned;

Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them;

Fourth, they will endeavor, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access, on equal terms, to the trade and to the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity;

Fifth, they desire to bring about the fullest collaboration between all nations in the economic field with the object of securing, for all, improved labor standards, economic advancement and social security;

Sixth, after the final destruction of the Nazi tyranny, they hope to see established a peace which will afford to all nations the means of dwelling in safety within their own boundaries, and which will afford assurance that all the men in all lands may live out their lives in freedom from fear and want;

Seventh, such a peace should enable all men to traverse the high seas and oceans without hindrance;

Eighth, they believe that all of the nations of the world, for realistic as well as spiritual reasons must come to the abandonment of the use of force. Since no future peace can be maintained if land, sea or air armaments continue to be employed by nations which threaten, or may threaten, aggression outside of their frontiers, they believe, pending the establishment of a wider and permanent system of general security, that the disarmament of such nations is essential. They will likewise aid and encourage all other practicable measure which will lighten for peace-loving peoples the crushing burden of armaments.


If you scan this document, you will see that it in NO WAY expresses any limits of self-defense or any prohibition on securing territory. What it says is, "they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned."

In the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936, the concepts are

DECLARES:

1. That the American Nations, true to their republican institutions, proclaim their absolute juridical liberty, their unqualified respect for their respective sovereignties and the existence of a common democracy throughout America;

2. That every act susceptible of disturbing the peace of America affects each and every one of them, and justifies the initiation of the procedure of consultation provided for in the Convention for the Maintenance, Preservation and Reestablishment of Peace, signed at this Conference; and

3. That the following principles are accepted by the American community of Nations:

(a) Proscription of territorial conquest and that, in consequence, no acquisition made through violence shall be recognized;

(b) Intervention by one State in the internal or external affairs of another State is condemned;

(c) Forcible collection of pecuniary debts is illegal; and

(d) Any difference or dispute between the American nations, whatever its nature or origin, shall be settled by the methods of conciliation, or unrestricted arbitration, or through operation of international justice.

It is probably the closest, but not binding. Disputes are settled by peaceful means, not dissimilar to the Declaration of Principles of Friendly Nations.

(The PARADOX)

If the concept that an aggressor set of nations, like the Arab League, is allowed to attack (Israel) and fails, but then the defender (Israel) has to give back (to the Arab League) any territorial losses, THEN what is to prevent them from repeating the cycle over and over again, until they win?

• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- ... ... ...
No law, convention, treaty, or binding agreement purposely gives the unfair military advantage to the aggressor (the Arab League). At some point, the aggressor nations of the Arab League must be disabled and disarmed to end the cycle of violence.

Each Member nation that is under the constant threat from military assault and jihadist action will exercise its national sovereignty --- and ultimately withdraw from the CHARTER and the Treaty ... if Israel decides that extraordinary events, related to the survival of the Jewish National Home, jeopardized the supreme interests of The Jewish State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
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You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.
 
Coyote, et al,

It is always helpful to speak to the people who wrote a document to actually understand what the purpose and intent was for the writing.

“The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council. I formulated the Security Council Resolution. Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders. The proposal said ‘Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied,’ and not from ‘the’ territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories.” Quote From: Lord George A. Brown, British Foreign Secretary from 1966 to 1968, who helped Draft Resolution 242,


According to the resolution: United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Israel was not "singled out". The resolution called on all participating states:

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."
(COMMENT)

Well this is very specific and politically crafted language that sounds misleading. Understanding the intent of UNSC Res 242:

“Five-and-a-half months of vehement public diplomacy in 1967 made it perfectly clear what the missing definite article in Resolution 242 means. Ingeniously drafted resolutions calling for withdrawals from ‘all’ the territories were defeated in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the ‘fragile’ and ‘vulnerable’ Armistice Demarcation Lines, but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called ‘secure and recognized’ boundaries, agreed to by the parties. In negotiating such agreements, the parties should take into account, among other factors, security considerations, access to the international waterways of the region, and, of course, their respective legal claims.” Quote From: Eugene Rostow, Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs from 1966-1969, who helped draft Resolution 242.

It also states this:
John McHugo says that by the 1920s, international law no longer recognized that a state could acquire title to territory by conquest.[17] Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations requires all members to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.[18]
(COMMENT)

Yes I've heard, over and over again, this explanation. But it is not correct. The phrase "acquire title to territory by conquest" does not mean territory secured in the process of a defense or by treaty in surrender. Even the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) divided up the Ottoman Empire that had maintain the territories for 800 years or more. By 1920 (as John McHugo, points out) you must remember that the San Remo Convention of the Principle Allied Powers was meeting and crafting the language for the Mandate for Palestine. (McHugo is just plain wrong.) Even today a century later, the McHugo Concept is not made its way into customary law. One needs only look at the events of the events of the Russian - Crimean dispute and the 2014 events where Russia acquired the Crimea and nullified the "right to self-determination."

Yes, you have correctly quoted Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. But this aspect of the Charter is no more applicable to the 1967 War (defending against an eminent attack) than it was when the Arab League (5 nations simultaneously) attacked Israel in 1948. In 1967, three countries of the Arab League were staging forces in preparation to invade Israel yet again:

• 8 Brigades from Syria in the North
• 10 Brigades from Jordan in the center and East
• 100,000 troops, 900 tanks and 800 artillery pieces from the sourth

Now Article 2(4) does not over rule Article 51 (Self-Defense).

Michael Lynk says that article 2 of the Charter embodied a prevailing legal principle that there could be "no title by conquest". He says that principle had been expressed through numerous international conferences, doctrines and treaties since the late 19th Century. Lynk cites the examples of the First International Conference of American States in 1890; the United States Stimson Doctrine of 1932; the 1932 League of Nations resolution on Japanese aggression in China; the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936; and the Atlantic Charter of 1941.[19] Surya Sharma says that a war in self-defense cannot result in acquisition of title by conquest. He says that even if a war is lawful in origin it cannot exceed the limits of legitimate self-defense.[20]
(COMMENT)

You will notice that in no instance, does Surya Sharma (who writes his book over a century after the First International Conference of American States in 1890, make a quote. Why, because it is simply not true to form in its meaning. The United States alone, had several exchanges in which territory was acquired as a result of a military outcome:

West Florida
  • Declared to be a U.S. possession in 1810 after the territory had declared its independence from Spain and US Forces took take control 6 weeks later. General Andrew Jackson accepted the delivery of West Florida from its Spanish governor on July 17, 1821.
Texas
Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines
Cuba
  • Under the 1898 Treaty of Paris, Spain relinquished all claim of sovereignty over and title to Cuba, with the island to be occupied by the United States.
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands
The Atlantic Charter of 1941 is really quite short.


Atlantic Charter
AUGUST 14, 1941


The President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, representing His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, being met together, deem it right to make known certain common principles in the national policies of their respective countries on which they base their hopes for a better future for the world.

First, their countries seek no aggrandizement, territorial or other;

Second, they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned;

Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them;

Fourth, they will endeavor, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access, on equal terms, to the trade and to the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity;

Fifth, they desire to bring about the fullest collaboration between all nations in the economic field with the object of securing, for all, improved labor standards, economic advancement and social security;

Sixth, after the final destruction of the Nazi tyranny, they hope to see established a peace which will afford to all nations the means of dwelling in safety within their own boundaries, and which will afford assurance that all the men in all lands may live out their lives in freedom from fear and want;

Seventh, such a peace should enable all men to traverse the high seas and oceans without hindrance;

Eighth, they believe that all of the nations of the world, for realistic as well as spiritual reasons must come to the abandonment of the use of force. Since no future peace can be maintained if land, sea or air armaments continue to be employed by nations which threaten, or may threaten, aggression outside of their frontiers, they believe, pending the establishment of a wider and permanent system of general security, that the disarmament of such nations is essential. They will likewise aid and encourage all other practicable measure which will lighten for peace-loving peoples the crushing burden of armaments.


If you scan this document, you will see that it in NO WAY expresses any limits of self-defense or any prohibition on securing territory. What it says is, "they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned."

In the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936, the concepts are

DECLARES:

1. That the American Nations, true to their republican institutions, proclaim their absolute juridical liberty, their unqualified respect for their respective sovereignties and the existence of a common democracy throughout America;

2. That every act susceptible of disturbing the peace of America affects each and every one of them, and justifies the initiation of the procedure of consultation provided for in the Convention for the Maintenance, Preservation and Reestablishment of Peace, signed at this Conference; and

3. That the following principles are accepted by the American community of Nations:

(a) Proscription of territorial conquest and that, in consequence, no acquisition made through violence shall be recognized;

(b) Intervention by one State in the internal or external affairs of another State is condemned;

(c) Forcible collection of pecuniary debts is illegal; and

(d) Any difference or dispute between the American nations, whatever its nature or origin, shall be settled by the methods of conciliation, or unrestricted arbitration, or through operation of international justice.

It is probably the closest, but not binding. Disputes are settled by peaceful means, not dissimilar to the Declaration of Principles of Friendly Nations.

(The PARADOX)

If the concept that an aggressor set of nations, like the Arab League, is allowed to attack (Israel) and fails, but then the defender (Israel) has to give back (to the Arab League) any territorial losses, THEN what is to prevent them from repeating the cycle over and over again, until they win?

• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- ... ... ...
No law, convention, treaty, or binding agreement purposely gives the unfair military advantage to the aggressor (the Arab League). At some point, the aggressor nations of the Arab League must be disabled and disarmed to end the cycle of violence.

Each Member nation that is under the constant threat from military assault and jihadist action will exercise its national sovereignty --- and ultimately withdraw from the CHARTER and the Treaty ... if Israel decides that extraordinary events, related to the survival of the Jewish National Home, jeopardized the supreme interests of The Jewish State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R
War (defending against an eminent attack) than it was when the Arab League (5 nations simultaneously) attacked Israel in 1948.

Not true but let's play along with the propaganda.

Israel claims that it won land when the 5 Arab states (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan/Iraq, Egypt) lost the 1948 war.

First off, nobody lost that war. Hostilities stopped when a UN Security Council resolution called for an armistice.

Let's confirm this.

What did Lebanon lose in the war?
What did Syria lose in the war?
What did Jordan/Iraq lose in the war?
What did Egypt lose in the war?
 
Coyote, et al,

It is always helpful to speak to the people who wrote a document to actually understand what the purpose and intent was for the writing.

“The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council. I formulated the Security Council Resolution. Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders. The proposal said ‘Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied,’ and not from ‘the’ territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories.” Quote From: Lord George A. Brown, British Foreign Secretary from 1966 to 1968, who helped Draft Resolution 242,


According to the resolution: United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Israel was not "singled out". The resolution called on all participating states:

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."
(COMMENT)

Well this is very specific and politically crafted language that sounds misleading. Understanding the intent of UNSC Res 242:

“Five-and-a-half months of vehement public diplomacy in 1967 made it perfectly clear what the missing definite article in Resolution 242 means. Ingeniously drafted resolutions calling for withdrawals from ‘all’ the territories were defeated in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the ‘fragile’ and ‘vulnerable’ Armistice Demarcation Lines, but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called ‘secure and recognized’ boundaries, agreed to by the parties. In negotiating such agreements, the parties should take into account, among other factors, security considerations, access to the international waterways of the region, and, of course, their respective legal claims.” Quote From: Eugene Rostow, Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs from 1966-1969, who helped draft Resolution 242.

It also states this:
John McHugo says that by the 1920s, international law no longer recognized that a state could acquire title to territory by conquest.[17] Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations requires all members to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.[18]
(COMMENT)

Yes I've heard, over and over again, this explanation. But it is not correct. The phrase "acquire title to territory by conquest" does not mean territory secured in the process of a defense or by treaty in surrender. Even the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) divided up the Ottoman Empire that had maintain the territories for 800 years or more. By 1920 (as John McHugo, points out) you must remember that the San Remo Convention of the Principle Allied Powers was meeting and crafting the language for the Mandate for Palestine. (McHugo is just plain wrong.) Even today a century later, the McHugo Concept is not made its way into customary law. One needs only look at the events of the events of the Russian - Crimean dispute and the 2014 events where Russia acquired the Crimea and nullified the "right to self-determination."

Yes, you have correctly quoted Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. But this aspect of the Charter is no more applicable to the 1967 War (defending against an eminent attack) than it was when the Arab League (5 nations simultaneously) attacked Israel in 1948. In 1967, three countries of the Arab League were staging forces in preparation to invade Israel yet again:

• 8 Brigades from Syria in the North
• 10 Brigades from Jordan in the center and East
• 100,000 troops, 900 tanks and 800 artillery pieces from the sourth

Now Article 2(4) does not over rule Article 51 (Self-Defense).

Michael Lynk says that article 2 of the Charter embodied a prevailing legal principle that there could be "no title by conquest". He says that principle had been expressed through numerous international conferences, doctrines and treaties since the late 19th Century. Lynk cites the examples of the First International Conference of American States in 1890; the United States Stimson Doctrine of 1932; the 1932 League of Nations resolution on Japanese aggression in China; the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936; and the Atlantic Charter of 1941.[19] Surya Sharma says that a war in self-defense cannot result in acquisition of title by conquest. He says that even if a war is lawful in origin it cannot exceed the limits of legitimate self-defense.[20]
(COMMENT)

You will notice that in no instance, does Surya Sharma (who writes his book over a century after the First International Conference of American States in 1890, make a quote. Why, because it is simply not true to form in its meaning. The United States alone, had several exchanges in which territory was acquired as a result of a military outcome:

West Florida
  • Declared to be a U.S. possession in 1810 after the territory had declared its independence from Spain and US Forces took take control 6 weeks later. General Andrew Jackson accepted the delivery of West Florida from its Spanish governor on July 17, 1821.
Texas
Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines
Cuba
  • Under the 1898 Treaty of Paris, Spain relinquished all claim of sovereignty over and title to Cuba, with the island to be occupied by the United States.
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands
The Atlantic Charter of 1941 is really quite short.


Atlantic Charter
AUGUST 14, 1941


The President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, representing His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, being met together, deem it right to make known certain common principles in the national policies of their respective countries on which they base their hopes for a better future for the world.

First, their countries seek no aggrandizement, territorial or other;

Second, they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned;

Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them;

Fourth, they will endeavor, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access, on equal terms, to the trade and to the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity;

Fifth, they desire to bring about the fullest collaboration between all nations in the economic field with the object of securing, for all, improved labor standards, economic advancement and social security;

Sixth, after the final destruction of the Nazi tyranny, they hope to see established a peace which will afford to all nations the means of dwelling in safety within their own boundaries, and which will afford assurance that all the men in all lands may live out their lives in freedom from fear and want;

Seventh, such a peace should enable all men to traverse the high seas and oceans without hindrance;

Eighth, they believe that all of the nations of the world, for realistic as well as spiritual reasons must come to the abandonment of the use of force. Since no future peace can be maintained if land, sea or air armaments continue to be employed by nations which threaten, or may threaten, aggression outside of their frontiers, they believe, pending the establishment of a wider and permanent system of general security, that the disarmament of such nations is essential. They will likewise aid and encourage all other practicable measure which will lighten for peace-loving peoples the crushing burden of armaments.


If you scan this document, you will see that it in NO WAY expresses any limits of self-defense or any prohibition on securing territory. What it says is, "they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned."

In the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936, the concepts are

DECLARES:

1. That the American Nations, true to their republican institutions, proclaim their absolute juridical liberty, their unqualified respect for their respective sovereignties and the existence of a common democracy throughout America;

2. That every act susceptible of disturbing the peace of America affects each and every one of them, and justifies the initiation of the procedure of consultation provided for in the Convention for the Maintenance, Preservation and Reestablishment of Peace, signed at this Conference; and

3. That the following principles are accepted by the American community of Nations:

(a) Proscription of territorial conquest and that, in consequence, no acquisition made through violence shall be recognized;

(b) Intervention by one State in the internal or external affairs of another State is condemned;

(c) Forcible collection of pecuniary debts is illegal; and

(d) Any difference or dispute between the American nations, whatever its nature or origin, shall be settled by the methods of conciliation, or unrestricted arbitration, or through operation of international justice.

It is probably the closest, but not binding. Disputes are settled by peaceful means, not dissimilar to the Declaration of Principles of Friendly Nations.

(The PARADOX)

If the concept that an aggressor set of nations, like the Arab League, is allowed to attack (Israel) and fails, but then the defender (Israel) has to give back (to the Arab League) any territorial losses, THEN what is to prevent them from repeating the cycle over and over again, until they win?

• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- ... ... ...
No law, convention, treaty, or binding agreement purposely gives the unfair military advantage to the aggressor (the Arab League). At some point, the aggressor nations of the Arab League must be disabled and disarmed to end the cycle of violence.

Each Member nation that is under the constant threat from military assault and jihadist action will exercise its national sovereignty --- and ultimately withdraw from the CHARTER and the Treaty ... if Israel decides that extraordinary events, related to the survival of the Jewish National Home, jeopardized the supreme interests of The Jewish State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R
War (defending against an eminent attack) than it was when the Arab League (5 nations simultaneously) attacked Israel in 1948.

Not true but let's play along with the propaganda.

Israel claims that it won land when the 5 Arab states (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan/Iraq, Egypt) lost the 1948 war.

First off, nobody lost that war. Hostilities stopped when a UN Security Council resolution called for an armistice.

Let's confirm this.

What did Lebanon lose in the war?
What did Syria lose in the war?
What did Jordan/Iraq lose in the war?
What did Egypt lose in the war?

You're confusing the 1948 war with the 1967 war.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's assume your inference is correct.

What did Lebanon lose in the war?
What did Syria lose in the war?
What did Jordan/Iraq lose in the war?
What did Egypt lose in the war?
(COMMENT)

If the Arab League lost nothing, THEN what is the issue? Why even raise the issue of military conquest?

So, according to your inference (What did Arab League Nations lose in the war?) then --- is that the Arab League is at war with Israel because they lost nothing.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Coyote, et al,

It is always helpful to speak to the people who wrote a document to actually understand what the purpose and intent was for the writing.

“The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council. I formulated the Security Council Resolution. Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders. The proposal said ‘Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied,’ and not from ‘the’ territories, which means that Israel will not withdraw from all the territories.” Quote From: Lord George A. Brown, British Foreign Secretary from 1966 to 1968, who helped Draft Resolution 242,


According to the resolution: United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Israel was not "singled out". The resolution called on all participating states:

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."
(COMMENT)

Well this is very specific and politically crafted language that sounds misleading. Understanding the intent of UNSC Res 242:

“Five-and-a-half months of vehement public diplomacy in 1967 made it perfectly clear what the missing definite article in Resolution 242 means. Ingeniously drafted resolutions calling for withdrawals from ‘all’ the territories were defeated in the Security Council and the General Assembly. Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the ‘fragile’ and ‘vulnerable’ Armistice Demarcation Lines, but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called ‘secure and recognized’ boundaries, agreed to by the parties. In negotiating such agreements, the parties should take into account, among other factors, security considerations, access to the international waterways of the region, and, of course, their respective legal claims.” Quote From: Eugene Rostow, Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs from 1966-1969, who helped draft Resolution 242.

It also states this:
John McHugo says that by the 1920s, international law no longer recognized that a state could acquire title to territory by conquest.[17] Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations requires all members to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.[18]
(COMMENT)

Yes I've heard, over and over again, this explanation. But it is not correct. The phrase "acquire title to territory by conquest" does not mean territory secured in the process of a defense or by treaty in surrender. Even the Treaty of Lausanne (1924) divided up the Ottoman Empire that had maintain the territories for 800 years or more. By 1920 (as John McHugo, points out) you must remember that the San Remo Convention of the Principle Allied Powers was meeting and crafting the language for the Mandate for Palestine. (McHugo is just plain wrong.) Even today a century later, the McHugo Concept is not made its way into customary law. One needs only look at the events of the events of the Russian - Crimean dispute and the 2014 events where Russia acquired the Crimea and nullified the "right to self-determination."

Yes, you have correctly quoted Article 2(4) of the UN Charter. But this aspect of the Charter is no more applicable to the 1967 War (defending against an eminent attack) than it was when the Arab League (5 nations simultaneously) attacked Israel in 1948. In 1967, three countries of the Arab League were staging forces in preparation to invade Israel yet again:

• 8 Brigades from Syria in the North
• 10 Brigades from Jordan in the center and East
• 100,000 troops, 900 tanks and 800 artillery pieces from the sourth

Now Article 2(4) does not over rule Article 51 (Self-Defense).

Michael Lynk says that article 2 of the Charter embodied a prevailing legal principle that there could be "no title by conquest". He says that principle had been expressed through numerous international conferences, doctrines and treaties since the late 19th Century. Lynk cites the examples of the First International Conference of American States in 1890; the United States Stimson Doctrine of 1932; the 1932 League of Nations resolution on Japanese aggression in China; the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936; and the Atlantic Charter of 1941.[19] Surya Sharma says that a war in self-defense cannot result in acquisition of title by conquest. He says that even if a war is lawful in origin it cannot exceed the limits of legitimate self-defense.[20]
(COMMENT)

You will notice that in no instance, does Surya Sharma (who writes his book over a century after the First International Conference of American States in 1890, make a quote. Why, because it is simply not true to form in its meaning. The United States alone, had several exchanges in which territory was acquired as a result of a military outcome:

West Florida
  • Declared to be a U.S. possession in 1810 after the territory had declared its independence from Spain and US Forces took take control 6 weeks later. General Andrew Jackson accepted the delivery of West Florida from its Spanish governor on July 17, 1821.
Texas
Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines
Cuba
  • Under the 1898 Treaty of Paris, Spain relinquished all claim of sovereignty over and title to Cuba, with the island to be occupied by the United States.
Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands
The Atlantic Charter of 1941 is really quite short.


Atlantic Charter
AUGUST 14, 1941


The President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, representing His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, being met together, deem it right to make known certain common principles in the national policies of their respective countries on which they base their hopes for a better future for the world.

First, their countries seek no aggrandizement, territorial or other;

Second, they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned;

Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them;

Fourth, they will endeavor, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further the enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access, on equal terms, to the trade and to the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity;

Fifth, they desire to bring about the fullest collaboration between all nations in the economic field with the object of securing, for all, improved labor standards, economic advancement and social security;

Sixth, after the final destruction of the Nazi tyranny, they hope to see established a peace which will afford to all nations the means of dwelling in safety within their own boundaries, and which will afford assurance that all the men in all lands may live out their lives in freedom from fear and want;

Seventh, such a peace should enable all men to traverse the high seas and oceans without hindrance;

Eighth, they believe that all of the nations of the world, for realistic as well as spiritual reasons must come to the abandonment of the use of force. Since no future peace can be maintained if land, sea or air armaments continue to be employed by nations which threaten, or may threaten, aggression outside of their frontiers, they believe, pending the establishment of a wider and permanent system of general security, that the disarmament of such nations is essential. They will likewise aid and encourage all other practicable measure which will lighten for peace-loving peoples the crushing burden of armaments.


If you scan this document, you will see that it in NO WAY expresses any limits of self-defense or any prohibition on securing territory. What it says is, "they desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned."

In the Buenos Aires Declaration of 1936, the concepts are

DECLARES:

1. That the American Nations, true to their republican institutions, proclaim their absolute juridical liberty, their unqualified respect for their respective sovereignties and the existence of a common democracy throughout America;

2. That every act susceptible of disturbing the peace of America affects each and every one of them, and justifies the initiation of the procedure of consultation provided for in the Convention for the Maintenance, Preservation and Reestablishment of Peace, signed at this Conference; and

3. That the following principles are accepted by the American community of Nations:

(a) Proscription of territorial conquest and that, in consequence, no acquisition made through violence shall be recognized;

(b) Intervention by one State in the internal or external affairs of another State is condemned;

(c) Forcible collection of pecuniary debts is illegal; and

(d) Any difference or dispute between the American nations, whatever its nature or origin, shall be settled by the methods of conciliation, or unrestricted arbitration, or through operation of international justice.

It is probably the closest, but not binding. Disputes are settled by peaceful means, not dissimilar to the Declaration of Principles of Friendly Nations.

(The PARADOX)

If the concept that an aggressor set of nations, like the Arab League, is allowed to attack (Israel) and fails, but then the defender (Israel) has to give back (to the Arab League) any territorial losses, THEN what is to prevent them from repeating the cycle over and over again, until they win?

• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- Defeated --- Lost Territory Returned --- restock, resupply, reconstitute forces THEN
• Attack --- ... ... ...
No law, convention, treaty, or binding agreement purposely gives the unfair military advantage to the aggressor (the Arab League). At some point, the aggressor nations of the Arab League must be disabled and disarmed to end the cycle of violence.

Each Member nation that is under the constant threat from military assault and jihadist action will exercise its national sovereignty --- and ultimately withdraw from the CHARTER and the Treaty ... if Israel decides that extraordinary events, related to the survival of the Jewish National Home, jeopardized the supreme interests of The Jewish State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks Rocco! :)
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. I've never demanded Israel give up it's defensive position (for example the Golan Heights), nor have I ever denied it's right to defend itself (for example Hamas rocket fire).

Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.
 
Last edited:
P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's assume your inference is correct.

What did Lebanon lose in the war?
What did Syria lose in the war?
What did Jordan/Iraq lose in the war?
What did Egypt lose in the war?
(COMMENT)

If the Arab League lost nothing, THEN what is the issue? Why even raise the issue of military conquest?

So, according to your inference (What did Arab League Nations lose in the war?) then --- is that the Arab League is at war with Israel because they lost nothing.

Most Respectfully,
R
Then how does Israel claim that it won land in that war?
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.
‘The crime of apartheid’ means inhumane acts of a character similar to
those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an
institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination
by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

https://www.icc-cpi.int/nr/rdonlyres/ea9aeff7-5752-4f84-be94-0a655eb30e16/0/rome_statute_english.pdf

Many acts of Israel fit that description.
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.
‘The crime of apartheid’ means inhumane acts of a character similar to
those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an
institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one
racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the
intention of maintaining that regime;

https://www.icc-cpi.int/nr/rdonlyres/ea9aeff7-5752-4f84-be94-0a655eb30e16/0/rome_statute_english.pdf

Many acts of Israel fit that description.

Apartheid was a distinct system of separation and inequality hardwired into law: http://www.history.com/topics/apartheid

I see with Israel a system closer to what existed between white Americans and Native Americans.
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.
‘The crime of apartheid’ means inhumane acts of a character similar to
those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an
institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one
racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the
intention of maintaining that regime;

https://www.icc-cpi.int/nr/rdonlyres/ea9aeff7-5752-4f84-be94-0a655eb30e16/0/rome_statute_english.pdf

Many acts of Israel fit that description.

Apartheid was a distinct system of separation and inequality hardwired into law: Apartheid - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

I see with Israel a system closer to what existed between white Americans and Native Americans.
Indeed, That was domination by colonial powers over the natives. Exactly the case of Israel over the Palestinians.

Gaza and all the little pieces left of the West Bank are the reservations.
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.
‘The crime of apartheid’ means inhumane acts of a character similar to
those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an
institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one
racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the
intention of maintaining that regime;

https://www.icc-cpi.int/nr/rdonlyres/ea9aeff7-5752-4f84-be94-0a655eb30e16/0/rome_statute_english.pdf

Many acts of Israel fit that description.

Apartheid was a distinct system of separation and inequality hardwired into law: Apartheid - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

I see with Israel a system closer to what existed between white Americans and Native Americans.
Indeed, That was domination by colonial powers over the natives. Exactly the case of Israel over the Palestinians.

Gaza and all the little pieces left of the West Bank are the reservations.

Apartheid was more than just "domination by colonial powers over natives". And, in the case of Israel - there are Arab Israeli's that live within Israel.
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. I've never demanded Israel give up it's defensive position (for example the Golan Heights), nor have I ever denied it's right to defend itself (for example Hamas rocket fire).

Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.

No its not discrimination

Its restrictions based off the violent behavior of the Arab Muslims in Israel.

See how you take the opportunity to slander Israel ? Why would Israel spend billions on concrete walls and security measures if it didn't need them ? There's a reason Israel is FORCED to spend that kinda money and its not because they just enjoy it. They were forced too by the actions of the violent Arab Muslims who are still quite actively engaged in a war against Israel.

There is no apartheid and there is no discrimination or inequality, what there is, is a large violent faction of Arab Muslims hiding within the UNs nonsensical system within Israel. Who've proven again and again they simply can't be allowed to run amok within civilized society
 
15th post
P F Tinmore, et al,

The terms "winning" and "Losing" are descriptions the layman can understand. In the Political-Military (Pol-Mil) Environment, the more accurate terminology:

• Decisive Military Victory --- definitively resolves the objective being fought over, ending one stage of the conflict.
• Strategic Military Victory --- brings long-term advantage to the victor and disturbs the enemy's ability to wage a war.
• Tactical Military Victory --- results in the completion of an objective, where the losses of the defeated outweigh those of the victor.
• Pyrrhic Military Victory --- inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat.

In some cases, a total national strategy is defined including what victory looks like. For instance, in Iraq, the National Security Council defined "Victory in Iraq" to be:
Victory in Iraq is Defined in Stages

• Short term, Iraq is making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.

• Medium term, Iraq is in the lead defeating terrorists and providing its own security, with a fully constitutional government in place, and on its way to achieving its economic potential.

• Longer term, Iraq is peaceful, united, stable, and secure, well integrated into the international community, and a full partner in the global war on terrorism.

In the case of the 1948-1949 War of Independence for Israel, the Tactical Military Victory by the Israelis is calculated by:

Screen Shot 2016-03-07 at 1.03.53 PM.webp
P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's assume your inference is correct.

What did Lebanon lose in the war?
What did Syria lose in the war?
What did Jordan/Iraq lose in the war?
What did Egypt lose in the war?
(COMMENT)
If the Arab League lost nothing, THEN what is the issue? Why even raise the issue of military conquest?
So, according to your inference (What did Arab League Nations lose in the war?) then --- is that the Arab League is at war with Israel because they lost nothing.
Then how does Israel claim that it won land in that war?
(COMMENT)

Actually the Israelis did not win any territory in any of the conflicts fought. That was never the objective. The Israeli Strategic Military Victory was framed in that the Jewish State of Israel was successfully defended against decimation by the Arab League.

In the 1967 Six Day War, the Israeli Defense Force achieved a Decisive Military Victory in terms of Pol-Mil Objectives, and a strong Strategic Military Victory in terms of truncating the Arab Leagues ability to conduct war. At the conclusion of the 6-Day War, the Egyptian Occupation Force and Military Governorship was driven from the Gaza Strip. At the conclusion of the 6-Day War, the Arab Legion (Jordanian Army) was driven from the West Bank.
Screen Shot 2016-03-07 at 1.09.58 PM.webp

The 1973 Yom Kippur War was a Decisive Military Victory, and the isolation of the entire Egyptian Third Army; cut off from resupply. It ultimately lead to the establishment of Peace Treaties with Egypt and Jordan.
Screen Shot 2016-03-07 at 1.20.22 PM.webp

It is important to understand that the intent of the Military Operations. In terms of the Palestinian Paramilitary Forces (Arab Liberation Army and Holy War Army), both were rendered completely combat ineffective (totally irrelevant) on the battlefield.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
You have more patience than I Rocco.

These people will stop at nothing to try and weaken the Israeli position. And it aggravates them no end that many of us or even Israel itself, isn't buying into it.

Demanding that a country under attack give up its defensive position while still in the middle of a war is just ridiculous.

I ask again when did that ever happen before.

What other nation is denied the right to defend itself again and again.

and then we have this nonsense about apartheid, wow. Nothing even remotely similar to apartheid exists in Israel and yet inevitably in the course of these kinds of conversations we here someone start singing the militant islamist party line.

Ridiculous hardly covers it.

Oh bugger off. Rocco provides a good explanation and manages to do so without constantly insulting opposing points of view simply because they disagree with you. I've never demanded Israel give up it's defensive position (for example the Golan Heights), nor have I ever denied it's right to defend itself (for example Hamas rocket fire).

Apartheid doesn't exist but some pretty powerful discrimination and inequalities exist that you just want to breeze right on over because it's Israel and since Israel is not as bad as it's neighbors it's ok.

These people? I get pretty darn sick of "these people" too only I suspect it's a different set of "these people".

"These people"? Stuff it.

No its not discrimination

Its restrictions based off the violent behavior of the Arab Muslims in Israel.

See how you take the opportunity to slander Israel ? Why would Israel spend billions on concrete walls and security measures if it didn't need them ? There's a reason Israel is FORCED to spend that kinda money and its not because they just enjoy it. They were forced too by the actions of the violent Arab Muslims who are still quite actively engaged in a war against Israel.

There is no apartheid and there is no discrimination or inequality, what there is, is a large violent faction of Arab Muslims hiding within the UNs nonsensical system within Israel. Who've proven again and again they simply can't be allowed to run amok within civilized society

Slander: the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation...

Discrimination: treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

Inequality: injustice; partiality

Examples:
In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property.

The law appointed a Custodianship Council for Absentees' Property, whose president was to be known as the custodian of absentees' property. It then declared that "every right an absentee had in any property shall pass automatically to the custodian at the time of the vesting of the property; and the status of the custodian shall be the same as was that of the owner of the property."

In other words, the law stated that all property belonging to "absentee" owners was irretrievably lost to them...

...Ironically, the Palestinians who are being evicted from Sheikh Jarrah were in exactly the same positions as the Jewish owners of the land they have lived on since 1956. They owned property in west Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence, while the Sephardic Community and Knesset Israel committees owned land in east Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence.

The difference is, however, that because of Israeli legislation, the Jewish landowners could recover their land once the city was united, but the Palestinian landowners could not.

  • Home building and land ownership: there are significant restrictions on the ability of Arab Israeli's to purchase homes. Something like 93% of Israel's land is administered by the Israeli Land Trust. A significant portion of that land was taken through Israel's "Absentee Landowner" system and the ownership is contested. The ILA will not lease to foreign non-Jewish which would include Palestinian residents.
Most Arabs can't buy most homes in West Jerusalem
Jewish settlers' takeover of houses inhabited by Palestinians for more than 50 years in Sheikh Jarrah is legal in the formal sense of the term. However, Israeli law discriminates between the Jewish and Arab residents of Jerusalem when it comes to the rights of each community to recover property owned before the dislocations created by the 1948 War of Independence.


According to NIF grantee Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education, the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student.

Now that is from 2005, here is another from 2015: Arab schools strike in solidarity with Christian schools protesting lack of funds

The central administration of the 47 Christian schools in Israel pointed out, however, that the haredi (ultra-Orthodox) recognized but unofficial school networks Maayan Hinuch Torani and Hinuch Atzmai – of Shas and Agudat Yisrael respectively – receive 100% of the funding received by fully state-run schools.

Officials from the Christian schools claim that they are receiving in effect just 29% funding at present, which they say has led to a NIS 200 million shortfall for the new academic year.


Who is slandering who here?
 
I should have said libel since its written

Quote

li·bel

ˈlībəl/

noun

noun: libel; plural noun: libels

  1. 1.
    LAW
    a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.
  2. synonyms:
  3. defamation, defamation of character, character assassination, calumny, misrepresentation, scandalmongering; Moreaspersions, denigration, vilification, disparagement, derogation, insult, slander, malicious gossip;
    lie, slur, smear, untruth, false report;
    informalmudslinging, bad-mouthing
    "she sued two newspapers for libel"


      • the action or crime of publishing a false statement about a person."a councilor who sued two national newspapers for libel"
      • a false and malicious statement about a person.
      • a thing or circumstance that brings undeserved discredit on a person by misrepresentation.



    1. 2.
      (in admiralty and ecclesiastical law) a plaintiff's written declaration.

    verb

    verb: libel; 3rd person present: libels; past tense: libelled; past participle: libelled; gerund or present participle: libelling; past tense: libeled; past participle: libeled; gerund or present participle: libeling
    1. 1.
      LAW
      defame (someone) by publishing a libel."she alleged the magazine had libeled her"
    2. synonyms:
    3. defame, malign, slander, blacken someone's name, sully someone's reputation, speak ill/evil of, traduce, smear, cast aspersions on, drag someone's name through the mud, besmirch, tarnish, taint, tell lies about, stain, impugn someone's character/integrity, vilify, denigrate, disparage, run down, stigmatize, discredit, slur; Moreinformaldis, bad-mouth;
      formalderogate, calumniate
      "she alleged the magazine had libeled her"


        • make a false and malicious statement about.



      1. 2.
        (in admiralty and ecclesiastical law) bring a suit against (someone).

End Quote

Regardless your very first example is miles off

Quote

Inequality: injustice; partiality

Examples:

End Quote

You have not proven that the permitting process is racially dependent

The process of building with out a permit however is an illegal one. In virtually every country.

If you want to convince anyone the issues are racially based instead of economically as I have. You'd do better supporting your accusations with say, a form that clearly asks for race on a building permit application.
 
I should have said libel since its written

Quote

li·bel

ˈlībəl/

noun

noun: libel; plural noun: libels

  1. 1.
    LAW
    a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.
  2. synonyms:
  3. defamation, defamation of character, character assassination, calumny, misrepresentation, scandalmongering; Moreaspersions, denigration, vilification, disparagement, derogation, insult, slander, malicious gossip;
    lie, slur, smear, untruth, false report;
    informalmudslinging, bad-mouthing
    "she sued two newspapers for libel"

      • the action or crime of publishing a false statement about a person."a councilor who sued two national newspapers for libel"
      • a false and malicious statement about a person.
      • a thing or circumstance that brings undeserved discredit on a person by misrepresentation.



    1. 2.
      (in admiralty and ecclesiastical law) a plaintiff's written declaration.
    verb

    verb: libel; 3rd person present: libels; past tense: libelled; past participle: libelled; gerund or present participle: libelling; past tense: libeled; past participle: libeled; gerund or present participle: libeling
    1. 1.
      LAW
      defame (someone) by publishing a libel."she alleged the magazine had libeled her"
    2. synonyms:
    3. defame, malign, slander, blacken someone's name, sully someone's reputation, speak ill/evil of, traduce, smear, cast aspersions on, drag someone's name through the mud, besmirch, tarnish, taint, tell lies about, stain, impugn someone's character/integrity, vilify, denigrate, disparage, run down, stigmatize, discredit, slur; Moreinformaldis, bad-mouth;
      formalderogate, calumniate
      "she alleged the magazine had libeled her"

        • make a false and malicious statement about.



      1. 2.
        (in admiralty and ecclesiastical law) bring a suit against (someone).

End Quote

Regardless your very first example is miles off

Quote

Inequality: injustice; partiality

Examples:

End Quote

You have not proven that the permitting process is racially dependent

The process of building with out a permit however is an illegal one. In virtually every country.

If you want to convince anyone the issues are racially based instead of economically as I have. You'd do better supporting your accusations with say, a form that clearly asks for race on a building permit application.

What "false and malicious" statement have I made?

Permitting process: Palestinian building permits 'political', admits Israel

Jerusalem (AFP) - Approval of building plans for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank is subject to political considerations, Israeli defence officials have acknowledged.

"Political considerations" that discriminate against one ethnic group and favor another ethnic group.

Discrimination?

You have yet to support your claim that the permiting process is skewed because of economics nor have you offered any evidence or specifics to disprove my claims or show them to be libel, slander etc.
 

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