Bryan Fischer: "No More Mosques, Period"

[Mr.Fitnah]

There is one Islam and you know nothing of it.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A Bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam and the Bedouin got a fever, whereupon he said to the Prophet, "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. He came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. Then (the Bedouin) left (Madinah). Allah's Apostle said: "Madinah is like a pair of bellows: it expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good." - Sahih Bukhari, Ahkam, no. 89​

It is a capital offense if the act of irtidad involves fasad.

Why not use the Quran to illustrate the penalty for apostasy in Islam?

There is no specifically stated penalty for irtidad in the Qur'an. Even Maududi (RA) acknowledges that only those who "instigated apostasy" were deserving of death according to his interpretation of At-Tawbah.

The hadith above shows that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for irtidad; Rasul Allah (SAWS) would have applied it himself in that case.

Plain as day it says to kill them unless they have joined a group you have a treaty with or approach with breast restrained.



4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.

The Noble Quran : Surat 4

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Hister]

So the koran orders people to kill? Nice, peaceful religion.

But if you want to outlaw mosques, just ban the sale of persian rugs, they'll have nothing to kiss.

 

[Kalam]

any of them

tell us which radicals are apostate and which ones arent

I don't know which specific groups you consider radical.

well, for a start, Al Qaeda,

Al-Qa'idah kills Muslims with little hesitation. They use an obtuse and logically inconsistent reading of scripture to conveniently offer justification whatever they want to do. If they're not apostates, they're probably heretics. That isn't to say that some rank-and-file members aren't sincere Muslims who have simply been misguided.

Hamas,

I think that Hamas are Muslims. I don't support their rocket attacks, but I appreciate their willingness to fight against Israel, the non-military work they've done in an attempt to improve the lives of Palestinians, and their decision to take up arms against groups such as al-Qa'idah. They have made mistakes, but who hasn't?

Hezbollah

I view Shi'ism as somewhat heretical, so I tend to avoid discussing groups like Hizbullah.

 

[chanel]

Al-Qa'idah kills Muslims with little hesitation. They use an obtuse and logically inconsistent reading of scripture to conveniently offer justification whatever they want to do. If they're not apostates, they're probably heretics. That isn't to say that some rank-and-file members aren't sincere Muslims who have simply been misguided.

Terrorists aren't "simply misguided". This shit has got to stop.

 

[Yukon.]

One thing hasn't changed in the USA. Based on this Thread American's are still the most racist and bigotted in the world. So sad you are, so hypocritical and typically conservative/GOP.

 

[goldcatt]

Undoubtedly. But the burka does make her perspective seem a bit more valid, as does the death penalty for speaking contrary thoughts out loud.

Good point. I'll have to read that book now and see what she has to say. Thanks a lot pal, homework!

LOL. I tell ya what. I just now downloaded the free first chapter (or part of the first chapter?) on my Nook. If I like it, I'll buy it, too. Maybe we can compare notes. Homework all around. Then drinks. Tha Malcontent runs an e-tavern around here somewhere, too. Drynks after homework.

You said the magic word!

 

[Kalam]

Why not use the Quran to illustrate the penalty for apostasy in Islam?

There is no specifically stated penalty for irtidad in the Qur'an. Even Maududi (RA) acknowledges that only those who "instigated apostasy" were deserving of death according to his interpretation of At-Tawbah.

The hadith above shows that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for irtidad; Rasul Allah (SAWS) would have applied it himself in that case.

Plain as day it says to kill them unless they have joined a group you have a treaty with or approach with breast restrained.



4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.

The Noble Quran : Surat 4

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

These ayat don't pertain to irtidad; they discuss munafiqun (see ayah 88.) Imam Ahmad (RA) explains they they deal with a group of people, ostensibly Muslims, who abandoned Muhammad (SAWS) when he went to Uhud. According to the report, one group of Muslims argued that they should be killed and another argued that they must be spared, as these people had clearly stated their belief in Islam and remained Muslims in spite of their treachery. Muhammad (SAWS) then made a statement similar to the hadith in which he compared Madinah to a bellows and the ayat above were revealed. Ibn Abbas (RA), on the other hand, claimed that the ayat describe a group of people who claimed to be Muslims while simultaneously supporting the unbelievers, clearly making them munafiqun. As in Imam Ahmad's account, the Muslims then divided themselves into two camps regarding the fate of these munafiqun. Either way, this is clearly irrelevant to any discussion of irtidad.

 

[Kalam]

Kalamullah.Com | In the Shade of the Qur'an | Fi Dhilal al-Quran
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

 

[bodecea]

I don't know which specific groups you consider radical.

well, for a start, Al Qaeda,

Al-Qa'idah kills Muslims with little hesitation. They use an obtuse and logically inconsistent reading of scripture to conveniently offer justification whatever they want to do. If they're not apostates, they're probably heretics. That isn't to say that some rank-and-file members aren't sincere Muslims who have simply been misguided.

Hamas,

I think that Hamas are Muslims. I don't support their rocket attacks, but I appreciate their willingness to fight against Israel, the non-military work they've done in an attempt to improve the lives of Palestinians, and their decision to take up arms against groups such as al-Qa'idah. They have made mistakes, but who hasn't?

Hezbollah

I view Shi'ism as somewhat heretical, so I tend to avoid discussing groups like Hizbullah.

Sounds like Muslims have their own version of the Church of St. Luby's....cafeteria Christianity...cafeteria Islam.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

There is no specifically stated penalty for irtidad in the Qur'an. Even Maududi (RA) acknowledges that only those who "instigated apostasy" were deserving of death according to his interpretation of At-Tawbah.

The hadith above shows that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for irtidad; Rasul Allah (SAWS) would have applied it himself in that case.

Plain as day it says to kill them unless they have joined a group you have a treaty with or approach with breast restrained.



4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.

The Noble Quran : Surat 4

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

blah bla blah

Yeah anyone can plainly see that .

 

[Kalam]

There is no specifically stated penalty for irtidad in the Qur'an. Even Maududi (RA) acknowledges that only those who "instigated apostasy" were deserving of death according to his interpretation of At-Tawbah.

The hadith above shows that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for irtidad; Rasul Allah (SAWS) would have applied it himself in that case.

Plain as day it says to kill them unless they have joined a group you have a treaty with or approach with breast restrained.



4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.

The Noble Quran : Surat 4

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

blah bla blah

Yeah anyone can plainly see that .

Concession accepted. You and al-Qa'idah would get along well together; you both read the Qur'an without any consideration for context at all... unless, of course, the context appears to confirm your preconceptions.

 

[Kalam]

well, for a start, Al Qaeda,

Al-Qa'idah kills Muslims with little hesitation. They use an obtuse and logically inconsistent reading of scripture to conveniently offer justification whatever they want to do. If they're not apostates, they're probably heretics. That isn't to say that some rank-and-file members aren't sincere Muslims who have simply been misguided.


I think that Hamas are Muslims. I don't support their rocket attacks, but I appreciate their willingness to fight against Israel, the non-military work they've done in an attempt to improve the lives of Palestinians, and their decision to take up arms against groups such as al-Qa'idah. They have made mistakes, but who hasn't?

Hezbollah

I view Shi'ism as somewhat heretical, so I tend to avoid discussing groups like Hizbullah.

Sounds like Muslims have their own version of the Church of St. Luby's....cafeteria Christianity...cafeteria Islam.

The mistake people of all religions make is acting without knowledge and then seeking religious justification. If you're going to dedicate yourself to a faith (or any clearly regimented way of life,) doctrinal study should precede any action taken in the name of that religion or ideology.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Plain as day it says to kill them unless they have joined a group you have a treaty with or approach with breast restrained.



4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.

The Noble Quran : Surat 4

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

blah bla blah

Yeah anyone can plainly see that .

Concession accepted. You and al-Qa'idah would get along well together; you both read the Qur'an without any consideration for context at all... unless, of course, the context appears to confirm your preconceptions.

There is no concession. you are just a ideologue who is compelled to lie with out regard to the evidence that is plain and direct .

http://books.google.com/books?id=wG...ver changes his religion, execute him&f=false

 

[Kalam]

Yeah anyone can plainly see that .

Concession accepted. You and al-Qa'idah would get along well together; you both read the Qur'an without any consideration for context at all... unless, of course, the context appears to confirm your preconceptions.

There is no concession. you are just a ideologue who is compelled to lie with out regard to the evidence that is plain and direct .

Islam: Questions and Answers ... - Google Books

Clearly, providing well-known historical and scriptural context is tantamount to "lying" and "disregarding evidence." Are you now going to deny that those accounts weren't provided by their respective narrators and that the 88th ayah of An-Nisa doesn't clearly identify munafiqun as the subject being discussed?

فَما لَكُم فِي المُنافِقينَ فِئَتَينِ وَاللَّهُ أَركَسَهُم بِما كَسَبوا ۚ أَتُريدونَ أَن تَهدوا مَن أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ ۖ وَمَن يُضلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبيلًا

So, what (is the matter) with you two parties concerning the munafiqin while Allah cast them back for what they earned? Do you wish that you guide (those) whom Allah has let go astray? And whoever Allah lets go astray, then never will you find for him a way. - 4:88

 

[Kalam]

Islam: Questions and Answers ... - Google Books

Sorry, your book does not cite ayah 88 or 89 in its argument for the execution of apostates.

 

[Kalam]

It has been established that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for mere apostasy, or it would have been applied by the Messenger (SAWS) himself in the case of the Bedouin. You can accept this or attempt to offer evidence that the isnad of this hadith is weak.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

It has been established that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for mere apostasy, or it would have been applied by the Messenger (SAWS) himself in the case of the Bedouin. You can accept this or attempt to offer evidence that the isnad of this hadith is weak.

Another example of mohammads situational "ethics". Not particularity meaningful or surprising.

 

[Kalam]

It has been established that execution cannot be the hadd punishment for mere apostasy, or it would have been applied by the Messenger (SAWS) himself in the case of the Bedouin. You can accept this or attempt to offer evidence that the isnad of this hadith is weak.

Another example of mohammads situational "ethics". Not particularity meaningful or surprising.

A punishment cannot be considered hadd unless it was applied in every case by Rasul Allah (SAWS). Whether or not you think that he applied justice inconsistently has no bearing on the jurisprudential legitimacy of a Shari'i penalty.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Concession accepted. You and al-Qa'idah would get along well together; you both read the Qur'an without any consideration for context at all... unless, of course, the context appears to confirm your preconceptions.

There is no concession. you are just a ideologue who is compelled to lie with out regard to the evidence that is plain and direct .

Islam: Questions and Answers ... - Google Books

Clearly, providing well-known historical and scriptural context is tantamount to "lying" and "disregarding evidence." Are you now going to deny that those accounts weren't provided by their respective narrators and that the 88th ayah of An-Nisa doesn't clearly identify munafiqun as the subject being discussed?

فَما لَكُم فِي المُنافِقينَ فِئَتَينِ وَاللَّهُ أَركَسَهُم بِما كَسَبوا ۚ أَتُريدونَ أَن تَهدوا مَن أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ ۖ وَمَن يُضلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبيلًا

So, what (is the matter) with you two parties concerning the munafiqin while Allah cast them back for what they earned? Do you wish that you guide (those) whom Allah has let go astray? And whoever Allah lets go astray, then never will you find for him a way. - 4:88

Yeah the munafiqin are hypocrites, hypocrites are disbelievers tho were once believers.

9:84. And never (O Muhammad SAW) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (hypocrites) who dies, nor stand at his grave. Certainly they disbelieved in Allâh and His Messenger, and died while they were Fâsiqûn (rebellious, - disobedient to Allâh and His Messenger SAW).

A punishment cannot be considered hadd unless it was applied in every case by Rasul Allah (SAWS). Whether or not you think that he applied justice inconsistently has no bearing on the jurisprudential legitimacy of a Shari'i penalty.

And you are really going to hate this More internal abrogation .


4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.

Times change


9:73. O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, - and worst indeed is that destination.

The Hypocrites and disbelievers become combined to be just disbelievers over the course of mohammads rant

9:123. O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).


Islam Question and Answer - Jihad against the hypocrites

It just get worse and worse for you.

 

[Kalam]

9:84. And never (O Muhammad SAW) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (hypocrites) who dies, nor stand at his grave. Certainly they disbelieved in Allâh and His Messenger, and died while they were Fâsiqûn (rebellious, - disobedient to Allâh and His Messenger SAW).

This refers to those who stayed behind during the Tabuk expedition and does not call for their execution. More generally, it applies to self-proclaimed Muslims who remain inactive when their participation in something vital to the community is required. It neither discusses irtidad or calls for these people to be executed.

Times change

9:73. O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, - and worst indeed is that destination.

Please provide specific evidence from a notable author (Ibn Salama, As-Suyuti, etc.) on the subject that these ayat are nasikh and mansukh.

The Hypocrites and disbelievers become combined to be just disbelievers over the course of mohammads rant

Incorrect. All Munafiqun are kuffar, but most kuffar are not munafiqun. All four madhahib recognize munafiquun as a distinct class of people. Please provide evidence of conflation of kuffar and munafiquun by a notable 'alim.

You'll notice that munafiqun are singled out once again in the 101st ayah of At-Tawbah.

9:123. O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

Which has nothing to do with irtidad...

It just get worse and worse for you.

Right. How can I hope to prevail when faced with baseless conjecture?

Ayat do not become nasikh and mansukh simply because you say they do.