Breaking: Van mows down people walking on London Bridge.

[Tilly]

why do libtards defend islam? they kill gays, dont allow abortion or gay marriage.You know why? Because they are retarded and hate conservatives.

It's a fair question, and I'd begin by pointing out that the people doing this are not liberals, they're progressives. Two different things.

Here are two honest liberals discussing this very issue. The one on the right is a Muslim who puts his life on the line every day fighting against jihadism and for an Islamic Reformation. He has to fight two groups: The jihadists and the Regressive Left, a term he coined and explains:
.

He was on Sky News last night. One of the few Muslims interviewed who doesn't spin and obfuscate. I'm trying to find a link.

 

[Tilly]

Maajid Nawaz:

..We stand in the midst of a jihadist insurgency, and no insurgency can succeed unless it enjoys a level of support among the population it seeks to recruit from...

Maajid Nawaz: Muslims can play a crucial role in isolating extremists

Quite.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Yes Tilly I think we agree. However there are some who think that the wider Muslim community supports these characters. It is worth making the point that they do not.

Yet, the wider Muslim community DOES support the aims, if not the specific acts -- an Islamic Britain.

 

[Slyhunter]

If the current trend in Islamic terror attacks continues, candlelit vigils will soon be the number one cause of global warming.

Surely it will be US military planes going off to bomb some little children

It would be nice to have wpns that seeked bad guys and only killed them, BUT REALITY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! You can't blame us for civilian deaths when the enemy uses them as shields.

Yeah, you can't blame the US for start wars to get cheaper oil and then wanting to bomb those that seek to defend their land against US invasions and bombings when civilians get killed, no, not at all.

Just like you can't blame terrorists in London, Paris, Manchester, Brussels, when civilians get killed, they were just getting in the way of their bombs and knives. Yeah, not their fault at all.

You need to understand that it's the target that controls whether you are a terrorist or not. If you target non-military targets for the sole purpose of scaring people you are a terrorist. If you target military combatants then you are not a terrorist.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

If the current trend in Islamic terror attacks continues, candlelit vigils will soon be the number one cause of global warming.

Surely it will be US military planes going off to bomb some little children

It would be nice to have wpns that seeked bad guys and only killed them, BUT REALITY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! You can't blame us for civilian deaths when the enemy uses them as shields.

Yeah, you can't blame the US for start wars to get cheaper oil and then wanting to bomb those that seek to defend their land against US invasions and bombings when civilians get killed, no, not at all.

Just like you can't blame terrorists in London, Paris, Manchester, Brussels, when civilians get killed, they were just getting in the way of their bombs and knives. Yeah, not their fault at all.

You need to understand that it's the target that controls whether you are a terrorist or not. If you target non-military targets for the sole purpose of scaring people you are a terrorist. If you target military combatants then you are not a terrorist.

He is far too stupid to understand that.

All he knows is how to parrot Islamist propaganda on the subject.

 

[Tilly]

...“You were citing figures earlier that our security services are attempting to monitor around 23,000 suspected jihadists.

“That, by the way, is out of a population in the UK of just five per cent that are Muslim. That means 23,000 from four million Muslims in this country.

FOX•GETTY

Britain is in the 'midst of a jihadist insurgency', according to Maajid Nawaz
Britain and the rest of Europe are in the midst of a full-blown jihadist insurgency

“Around those 23,000 – those who are jihadists – around them will be those who sympathise with the ideology, Islamists who believe in establishing a caliphate and those who empathise with their friends – if that is not insurgency levels I don’t know what is.”

Former Islamic extremist WARNS Britain is 'in the midst of a jihadist insurgency'

 

[depotoo]

The guardian, re the 3rd attacker-
...If the security services had been alerted by the Italians and failed to act on the information, this would have been a major embarrassment to be added to the list of missed opportunities to have prevented the attack. The UK security services are to conduct an inquiry into their handling of the London attack.

According to Italian newspaper report, quoting Italian intelligence sources, he was stopped at Bologna airport last year bound for Syria via Turkey and told officials: “I am going to be a terrorist.” The newspapers said the information had been shared with the British and that he had been placed on a ‘watchlist’.

An Italian intelligence anti-terrorism office told the Guardian the country’s anti-terrorism office based in Rome sent an alert to MI5, the UK’s domestic intelligence agency. This could have been done by directly sending a dossier or placing Zaghba’s name on a European-wide intelligence-sharing database of potential jihadis.

The UK security services, which includes counter-terrorism police and the intelligence agencies, have found no such alert or direct communication and are puzzled by the description ‘watchlist’. Although one of the three attackers was on a list of 23,000 subjects of interest, Zaghba was not on it.

An Italian diplomatic source, seeking to clear up the apparent discrepancy between the Italian press accounts and the UK security services, said Zaghba, who had been living in Casablanca until March 2016 before returning to Italy, had been stopped during a routine search and found to have jihadi material.

The source said that the information had been uploaded onto a European database, one to which several names a day were sent, highlighting Zaghba as a subject of risk of being radicalised.

 

[depotoo]

Paris police shoot man who attacked officer outside Notre Dame Cathedral

 

[depotoo]

From BBC

A man has been shot by police outside the cathedral of Notre-Dame in Paris after he tried to attack an officer using a hammer, police say.

The suspect has been wounded in the chest, French media report. Officials say this is a "terrorist incident".

Some 900 people are still inside the cathedral. Pictures on social media show some holding their hands up.
Paris's Notre-Dame: Attacker shot outside cathedral - BBC News

 

[Tilly]

Hmmmm

London Bridge on LOCKDOWN as police clear Southwark street yards from terror attack
OFFICES just yards from the site of Saturday's London Bridge terror attack have been cleared by police.
By TOM PARFITT
PUBLISHED: 13:35, Tue, Jun 6, 2017 | UPDATED: 15:48, Tue, Jun 6, 2017

...Chris Elmer tweeted: "We have just been evacuated from offices in Southwark Street by cordon. They told us not to come back tomorrow either."

And Nick Reeve wrote: "Offices on Southwark Street being evacuated. No sense of urgency or emergency though."

Express.co.uk has contacted the Metropolitan Police for comment.

London Bridge on LOCKDOWN as police clear Southwark street yards from terror attack

 

[flacaltenn]

[

In the isolated British Muslim communities Immans attempt to "moderate" this as best they can. But still their advice is sometimes at odds to British law. First impulse is to EXPECT those options to be on the table. In fact -- that's WHY they run to the Imman and NOT help from local legal counsel, psychiatrists, and other "western inventions".

In fact they largely SHUN all that because it's totally alien to them and their parents and grandparents. It's a huge CULTURAL barrier that has little to do with the Religion they practice.

Not all are isolated, however a lot of their isolation is due to how they are treated when they get there.

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

Then they start their own prayer groups. Like one of the scumbags did when he was captured on TV praying with "his buds" on "The Jihadi Next Door Show". Shunning them is good --- but LESS important than TRACKING them. If Sky TV can track a group and find one of the London bridge slimebags -- Scotland Yard ought to be able to do it.

I'm getting plain fed up with MORE and MORE general surveillance on EVERYBODY -- when terrorists cases are DROPPED for "rules and policies" designed out of political correctness.

The last dozen terrorists in the UK and US -- MOST had been on watch lists. DROPPED, because they complained about being profiled or because of brain-dead "time-clocks" expiring on HOW LONG they can be watched. Govt is incapable of protecting anything under those circumstances.

 

[flacaltenn]

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

I expected this response, I even asked myself that. My answer? I don't know, but I have little respect for any religion but especially Islam, but this is more about how we non Muslims respond to their provocations to hate. Islam can go to hell.

You are moving the goalposts now. You realise that these nutters kill more muslims than non muslims dont you ?

They report the nutters and nothing gets done. Then they get abused for not doing anything. We should embrace them not abuse them.

Speaking of moving goalposts. Their native cultures become a blood bath without a strong man dictator.

But you are right. Reporting is doing no good. Because of the general INCOMPETENCE of govt to do anything right. If they are dropped from lists and investigations -- they should STILL BE under Elec. Surveillance for a year or two. Spy on THEM -- not me, not your political opposition..

 

[Tilly]

[

In the isolated British Muslim communities Immans attempt to "moderate" this as best they can. But still their advice is sometimes at odds to British law. First impulse is to EXPECT those options to be on the table. In fact -- that's WHY they run to the Imman and NOT help from local legal counsel, psychiatrists, and other "western inventions".

In fact they largely SHUN all that because it's totally alien to them and their parents and grandparents. It's a huge CULTURAL barrier that has little to do with the Religion they practice.

Not all are isolated, however a lot of their isolation is due to how they are treated when they get there.

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

 

[flacaltenn]

Not all are isolated, however a lot of their isolation is due to how they are treated when they get there.

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

I don't believe in "shaking down" those communities myself. I think if you see ISIS flags in a park -- you go after THOSE people. ("The Jihadi Next Door" series actually showed some of that). Or you work on tips and ACTUALLY follow them -- EVEN IF -- you can't immediately prosecute.

It's a war. The declared allegiances are to groups that have declared war on us. Islam hasn't declared war on you. Having "police" handle investigations of war combatants is a brain dead concept. Its NOT a legal issue. NOT LIKELY to be a prosecutable case til the bodies hit the floor..

Never expect govt to problem solve or act rationally. REGARDLESS of who is in charge. They are far too distracted with thousands of issues they should NOT even be sticking their claws into. When they SHOULD BE focusing on the couple dozen things that are ARE their actual job..

 

[Tilly]

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

I don't believe in "shaking down" those communities myself. I think if you see ISIS flags in a park -- you go after THOSE people. ("The Jihadi Next Door" series actually showed some of that). Or you work on tips and ACTUALLY follow them -- EVEN IF -- you can't immediately prosecute.

It's a war. The declared allegiances are to groups that have declared war on us. Islam hasn't declared war on you. Having "police" handle investigations of war combatants is a brain dead concept. Its NOT a legal issue. NOT LIKELY to be a prosecutable case til the bodies hit the floor..

Never expect govt to problem solve or act rationally. REGARDLESS of who is in charge. They are far too distracted with thousands of issues they should NOT even be sticking their claws into. When they SHOULD BE focusing on the couple dozen things that are ARE their actual job..

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'shaking down' communities.

And, it is my opinion that Islam has declared war on me, as both a woman and as an infidel. Muslims organise under different extremist umbrellas to prosecute that war, yes, but it comes from Islam and from the Quran, imho.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Not all are isolated, however a lot of their isolation is due to how they are treated when they get there.

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

But it is the current tory government that has slashed the police. 20,000 officers lost,community policing destroyed.
And now we are paying the penalty.
One of these characters was reported to the police on 5 separate occasions by his mosque. And yet they get slammed for "enabling" terrorism. what else can they do if the authorities wont work with them ?

 

[flacaltenn]

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

I don't believe in "shaking down" those communities myself. I think if you see ISIS flags in a park -- you go after THOSE people. ("The Jihadi Next Door" series actually showed some of that). Or you work on tips and ACTUALLY follow them -- EVEN IF -- you can't immediately prosecute.

It's a war. The declared allegiances are to groups that have declared war on us. Islam hasn't declared war on you. Having "police" handle investigations of war combatants is a brain dead concept. Its NOT a legal issue. NOT LIKELY to be a prosecutable case til the bodies hit the floor..

Never expect govt to problem solve or act rationally. REGARDLESS of who is in charge. They are far too distracted with thousands of issues they should NOT even be sticking their claws into. When they SHOULD BE focusing on the couple dozen things that are ARE their actual job..

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'shaking down' communities.

And, it is my opinion that Islam has declared war on me, as both a woman and as an infidel. Muslims organise under different extremist umbrellas to prosecute that war, yes, but it comes from Islam and from the Quran, imho.

Those groups that declared war are religious fundamentalists. But it's about organizing their home turf is more purely cultural way -- not really Islam. They don't LIKE Egypt, Syria, Saudis. Too western and secular and political. They want to purge all the NON-TRADITIONAL influences from Arab/tribal land. When you SHUN any form of secular govt -- all you got left is religious authority. What they HATE is the form of government that's been imposed on them by Westerners for decades. So the only thing that SURVIVES in their nirvana is Islam.

The "enemies" are clearly organized and identified -- and it's NOT Islam as a whole.

 

[Tilly]

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

But it is the current tory government that has slashed the police. 20,000 officers lost,community policing destroyed.
And now we are paying the penalty.
One of these characters was reported to the police on 5 separate occasions by his mosque. And yet they get slammed for "enabling" terrorism. what else can they do if the authorities wont work with them ?

Yes, I agree, it was reprehensible to cut police numbers, however, your regular bobby is not equipped to deal with a terrorist attack - as has been seen in the last few terrorist attacks - they ended up dead or in hospital - unable to protect themselves, and this thread is about dealing with terrorism.
The specific police units that are trained and well equipped to deal with terrorist attacks - and that haven't been cut - were on the scene and had neutralised the threat within 8 minutes.
Nor does the reduction of regular police numbers ameliorate in any way the obstruction from the left and from Muslims regarding the ability of the police to do their job, nor of their obstruction of strategies to combat radicalisation and terrorism on the basis that any such attempts are islamophobic. We could have a million police per capita, but if they are prevented from doing their job they would be next to useless, despite their numbers.

As an illustration of what the left does:

CORBYN BLOCKED TERROR LAWS
Jeremy Corbyn ‘bragged about blocking terror laws’ during Stop the War speech


The Labour leader said he had 'always' been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation

EXCLUSIVE
By Tom Newton Dunn, Political Editor and Matt Dathan
25th May 2017, 10:00 pm

Updated: 5th June 2017, 2:44 pm

JEREMY Corbyn faces serious questions today on tackling terror as it emerged he bragged about trying to block every new security law for 34 years.

Research by The Sun also reveals the hard left Labour leader voted against all 17 different new laws passed on terrorism since becoming an MP in 1983....

Jeremy Corbyn 'bragged about blocking terror laws' during Stop the War speech


And he is by no means the only lefty that has a career of blocking anti terrorism efforts.

 

[flacaltenn]

Shake-downs would be monitoring Mosques. Or large scale implants of deep undercover agents. Or too many street stops.

Electronic surveillance of CLEARLY identified threats would tell you far more. Build maps of their contacts, their foreign connections, their travel. Attempts to buy bomb making materials or weapons. Financial transactions.

Too much overt police presence in those areas sends folks underground. It needs to be focused on LISTED threats and done COVERTLY.

And both the USA and the UK have 3 or 4 THOUSAND -- listed threats. MOST of the terrorist actions have COME from "dropped cases" on these lists. DON'T DROP THEM. Back off the police following them around. Make it an Intelligence responsibility.

 

[Tilly]

All the Imams in London have refused to say prayers over the bodies of the killers. Its a pretty clear message.

It's pretty meaningless message. Perhaps these same imams should focus on being proactive when it comes to ending extremist, not petty posturing after the fact.

What would you have them do ?
They kick them out of their Mosques,they report them to the police and they condemn their actions.

Both the Manchester and London killers were reported by their communities to the police and neither were followed up.

Probably because the tories have slashed police numbers.

What else should they be doing ?

The police and security services have their hands tied because of all the obstruction from leftards, not to mention the sheer volume of people they need to watch and how they prioritise them.
In fact, the left and a great many imams and Muslim 'leaders' have been doing all in their power to get the PREVENT strategy tied up in knots AND dumped. It's the only strategy in years that has had a measure of success at reducing levels of radicalisation among the young, so why sabotage it? Because it concentrates (although not exclusively) on Muslims, that's why! It's islamophobic! They aren't looking at enough grey haired white English grannies!

But it is the current tory government that has slashed the police. 20,000 officers lost,community policing destroyed.
And now we are paying the penalty.
One of these characters was reported to the police on 5 separate occasions by his mosque. And yet they get slammed for "enabling" terrorism. what else can they do if the authorities wont work with them ?

What do you suggest is done when a Muslim is reported for his extremist views but has yet to blow us up?
The left and Muslim 'leaders' fight every single proposal for dealing with these cases. What were the police supposed to do? Don't forget there are nearly 30,000 people just like him. It takes 30-40 MI5 officers to watch just one. So all they can reasonably do is prioritise a much much smaller number - those that appear to pose a greater imminent risk.
Why do the left vilify Maajid Nawaz, a Muslim who understand how radicalisation occurs and why? Why is he fighting both the left and extremist Islam?