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Blatant Hypocricy of the Greens

editec

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Isn't it interesting that an oil company would be fined for the death of a couple of dozen birds while wind farms apparently remain immune when they are killing birds and bats in the tens of thousands?

Oil companies charged in ND migratory bird deaths - BusinessWeek

Bird deaths present problem at wind farms - USATODAY.com

Yes, it is interesting, I agree.

I continue to be unimpressed by the GREEN PARTY specifically and most "environmentalists" generally.

And I think of myself as both green and an environmentalist, too, so my lack of respect for most of these so called environmental organizations has nothing to do with my supporting the right wing POV.
 

Mr. H.

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The funds spent by the oil and gas industries to comply with local, state, and federal environmental regulations is staggering.
 
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The more I look into the 'Greens', the more red I see. Just like progressives have taken over the 'liberal' label, in my opinion the 'green' label is hiding the reds... Communists hiding behind the green agenda. A bunch of watermelons.... green on the outside, red on the inside.
 

LOki

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Isn't it interesting that an oil company would be fined for the death of a couple of dozen birds while wind farms apparently remain immune when they are killing birds and bats in the tens of thousands?

Oil companies charged in ND migratory bird deaths - BusinessWeek

Bird deaths present problem at wind farms - USATODAY.com
Cats kill birds--literally--1000 times more frequently that wind turbines. CATS!:clap2:

Why aren't you all up in arms about the goddamned bird-slaughter that cats cause, and how their owners get off all scott free?

Seriously, if anyone should be getting fined over bird deaths, it should be cat owners.

This isn't about hypocrisy in a wind vs fossil debate ... it's really about how dumb birds are, and the fact that you can't slow something down enough so these stupid birds will stop hitting them. If the issue is bird-deaths, then hypocrisy lies in how those responsible for (by FAR) the greatest number of bird deaths are not held responsible at all--not that the wind energy industry is held less accountable than the fossil energy industry.
 
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wirebender

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Isn't it interesting that an oil company would be fined for the death of a couple of dozen birds while wind farms apparently remain immune when they are killing birds and bats in the tens of thousands?

Oil companies charged in ND migratory bird deaths - BusinessWeek

Bird deaths present problem at wind farms - USATODAY.com

Yes, it is interesting, I agree.

I continue to be unimpressed by the GREEN PARTY specifically and most "environmentalists" generally.

And I think of myself as both green and an environmentalist, too, so my lack of respect for most of these so called environmental organizations has nothing to do with my supporting the right wing POV.

I dropped a 20 year old subscription to Autobon because of their silence on the issue.

While I am not a green, I am a very devoted environmentalist in the conservationist vein.
 
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wirebender

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Cats kill birds--literally--1000 times more frequently that wind turbines. CATS!:clap2:

Why aren't you all up in arms about the goddamned bird-slaughter that cats cause, and how their owners get off all scott free?[/quote]

Cats are a part of nature. Also, cats aren't killing raptors and bats.

This isn't about hypocrisy in a wind vs fossil debate ... it's really about how dumb birds are, and the fact that you can't slow something down enough so these stupid birds will stop hitting them. If the issue is bird-deaths, then hypocrisy lies in how those responsible for (by FAR) the greatest number of bird deaths are not held responsible at all--not that the wind energy industry is held less accountable than the fossil energy industry.

If you slow down the blades to the point that birds can avoid them, then you don't get any electricity. The fact is that at the blade tip, the speed is approaching 100 mph.
 

LOki

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Bird deaths present problem at wind farms - USATODAY.com
Cats kill birds--literally--1000 times more frequently that wind turbines. CATS!:clap2:

Why aren't you all up in arms about the goddamned bird-slaughter that cats cause, and how their owners get off all scott free?

Cats are a part of nature. Also, cats aren't killing raptors and bats.

Ok then. Windows--no more part of nature than a domestic cat--kill birds nearly 5000 times more frequently than wind turbines.

This isn't about hypocrisy in a wind vs fossil debate ... it's really about how dumb birds are, and the fact that you can't slow something down enough so these stupid birds will stop hitting them. If the issue is bird-deaths, then hypocrisy lies in how those responsible for (by FAR) the greatest number of bird deaths are not held responsible at all--not that the wind energy industry is held less accountable than the fossil energy industry.

If you slow down the blades to the point that birds can avoid them, then you don't get any electricity. The fact is that at the blade tip, the speed is approaching 100 mph.
You are entirely wrong. The blade tip may be going 100 mph in some winds (the kind of winds birds and bats don't fly in), but these grid utility scale turbines are only spinning ~ 15-30 rpm.

I live next to a wind-farm ... I'm watching those dopey fans right now, and from personal experience I'm telling you that you have no idea what you're on about. Particularly the part about killing the birds and bats. Just about everything else kills birds at a greater rate than wind turbines.
 

IanC

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ATI obtained Dr. Hansen’s Form SF 278, which is required to be filed annually, also under the Freedom of Information Act. The disclosure revealed that Dr. Hansen received between $236,000 and $1,232,500 in outside income in 2010 relating to his taxpayer-funded employment

do you think recompense on the order of a million bucks a year would presuade someone to continue giving the story people are willing to pay to hear?
 
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wirebender

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Ok then. Windows--no more part of nature than a domestic cat--kill birds nearly 5000 times more frequently than wind turbines.

When is the last time a raptor flew into your window?


You are entirely wrong. The blade tip may be going 100 mph in some winds (the kind of winds birds and bats don't fly in), but these grid utility scale turbines are only spinning ~ 15-30 rpm.

Not a math guy are you? A GE 2 MW turbine has a rotor size of about 300 feet. Lets look at how fast the tip of that blade is moving to make a revolution at various RPM's.

The formula for calculating tip speed is:

v = 2(PI)r/T(time)

If the turbine is spinning at 15 rpm, then you have 2(pi)150/4= 235.6 feet per second. That rounds to about 160 mph.

If the turbine is turning at 30 rpm, then you have 2(pi)150/2= 471.2 feet per second.
That rounds to about 321 mph

I live next to a wind-farm ... I'm watching those dopey fans right now, and from personal experience I'm telling you that you have no idea what you're on about.

For someone who lives next to one, you seem to know precious little about them, don't you?
 

LOki

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This is sick...Oil gets fined for 28 birds, while wind kills hundreds of thousands a year and gets off scot free. FUCK WIND POWER.
Not 28, millions of birds are killed in oil and waste water pits annually, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of birds lost to oil spills directly and due to contamination of habitat afterward.
 

LOki

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I live next to a wind-farm ... I'm watching those dopey fans right now, and from personal experience I'm telling you that you have no idea what you're on about.

For someone who lives next to one, you seem to know precious little about them, don't you?
I know there aren't piles of dead birds around them.
 
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wirebender

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I live next to a wind-farm ... I'm watching those dopey fans right now, and from personal experience I'm telling you that you have no idea what you're on about.

For someone who lives next to one, you seem to know precious little about them, don't you?
I know there aren't piles of dead birds around them.

You certainly didn't know how fast they are moving, so I doubt that you know much else about them either. In any event, you aren't credible.

This report is half a million a year:

Wind farms under fire for bird kills - The Washington Post

8000 per year at this site alone:

NextEra Upgrades Altamont Wind Farm for Birds - Renewable Energy

DailyTech - Study: Wind Farms = Bird Killers

California condors, wind farms on collision course - National wildlife conservation | Examiner.com

The fact is that you seem to very little about windfarms and thier effect on bird and bat populations. Completely unsurprising. I guess you are just another "ends justify the means" sort.
 

LOki

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For someone who lives next to one, you seem to know precious little about them, don't you?
I know there aren't piles of dead birds around them.

You certainly didn't know how fast they are moving, so I doubt that you know much else about them either.
Even at a tip speed of 300 mph, the gap between the tips of the rotor you're citing are over 100 yards apart, and that 100 yard span is still passing by @ ~ 20 times a minute. The blades are not invisible, the vast majority of birds have no problem avoiding the blades--the bodies are not piling up.


It's not as if I'm making the claim that no birds are struck by wind turbine blades--I'm saying the number is not significant compared to all kinds of other man made bird hazards, including those posed by the oil industry.

The fact is that you seem to very little about windfarms and thier effect on bird and bat populations.
You can claim this is a fact, but that doesn't make it a fact.

The fact of the matter is that this bird and bat mortality business is patently overstated in light of the same mortality statistics appurtenant to the oil industry in particular, and other man made bird hazards in general.

Completely unsurprising. I guess you are just another "ends justify the means" sort.
Nah. This is just you projecting.
 
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wirebender

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Even at a tip speed of 300 mph, the gap between the tips of the rotor you're citing are over 100 yards apart, and that 100 yard span is still passing by @ ~ 20 times a minute. The blades are not invisible, the vast majority of birds have no problem avoiding the blades--the bodies are not piling up.

Have you ever seen what 300 miles per hour looks like up close? Of course not. You look at wind turbines from hundreds of yards away and try to convince me that those blades are just creeping around blithely unaware that in fact, they are, in reality moving very quickly.

Your thinking processes are very shallow and your political convictions are very deep. A poor combination for anything other than a sheep.

The reason raptors (eagles, hawks, falcons, vultures, etc.) die so frequently around windfarms is that they have their eyes on the ground. That is what they do. They are looking for prey or carrion, not blades spinning hundreds of miles per hour in the sky.

Try driving to the grocery store with your attention tuned exclusively to your radio dial. I doubt that you will be very successful at avoiding cars that are more visible than turbine blades and travelling considerably slower.

It's not as if I'm making the claim that no birds are struck by wind turbine blades--I'm saying the number is not significant compared to all kinds of other man made bird hazards, including those posed by the oil industry.

Tell you what. Go out and kill yourself an eagle, or a hawk, or even a vulture in the presence of a game warden and explain to him how killing one of these birds is not signifigant. You can call me from jail to let me know how that went for you.

2000 raptors a year is signifigant considering that all of them are protected species.

You can claim this is a fact, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Shuck off your sheep suit long enough to look around with an honest objective eye.

The fact of the matter is that this bird and bat mortality business is patently overstated in light of the same mortality statistics appurtenant to the oil industry in particular, and other man made bird hazards in general.

Really? How many raptors die as a result of the oil industry? Bats?

Nah. This is just you projecting.

I dont project. No need. I am in posession of the facts. You have demonstrated very convincingly that you are in posession of no facts from the specifications of wind turbines to the number of birds and bats they kill. Any one who tries to justify the deaths of thousands of raptors per year in the name of an energy source that is a joke is trying to justify the means in the name of the ends.
 
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LOki

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Even at a tip speed of 300 mph, the gap between the tips of the rotor you're citing are over 100 yards apart, and that 100 yard span is still passing by @ ~ 20 times a minute. The blades are not invisible, the vast majority of birds have no problem avoiding the blades--the bodies are not piling up.

Have you ever seen what 300 miles per hour looks like up close? Of course not. You look at wind turbines from hundreds of yards away and try to convince me that those blades are just creeping around blithely unaware that in fact, they are, in reality moving very quickly.

Your thinking processes are very shallow and your political convictions are very deep. A poor combination for anything other than a sheep.
Well, they're certainly deeper than those that advocate for a centrally concentrated energy infrastructure that is controlled by corporatist terrorist nation state appeasers.

The reason raptors (eagles, hawks, falcons, vultures, etc.) die so frequently around windfarms is that they have their eyes on the ground. That is what they do. They are looking for prey or carrion, not blades spinning hundreds of miles per hour in the sky.
You are cherry picking your wind farms to support your assertions here. Raptors aren't killed all that frequently--compared to other man made hazards--due to turbine strikes at wind farms.

Get over it.

It's not as if I'm making the claim that no birds are struck by wind turbine blades--I'm saying the number is not significant compared to all kinds of other man made bird hazards, including those posed by the oil industry.

Tell you what. Go out and kill yourself an eagle, or a hawk, or even a vulture in the presence of a game warden and explain to him how killing one of these birds is not signifigant. You can call me from jail to let me know how that went for you.
Hello, retarded non-sequitur!

2000 raptors a year is signifigant considering that all of them are protected species.
Cherry picking.

Shuck off your sheep suit long enough to look around with an honest objective eye.
Take your own advice.

The fact of the matter is that this bird and bat mortality business is patently overstated in light of the same mortality statistics appurtenant to the oil industry in particular, and other man made bird hazards in general.

Really? How many raptors die as a result of the oil industry? Bats?
In the neighborhood of a 100 times more than wind farms.

Nah. This is just you projecting.

I dont project. No need. I am in posession of the facts. You have demonstrated very convincingly that you are in posession of no facts from the specifications of wind turbines to the number of birds and bats they kill. Any one who tries to justify the deaths of thousands of raptors per year in the name of an energy source that is a joke is trying to justify the means in the name of the ends.
Submitted while you hug your oil rich terrorist nation states.

"The Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area (WRA) has approximately 6,500 wind turbines on 190 km2 of rolling grassland and is situated just east of the San Francisco Bay. Between 1989 and 1991, 182 dead birds were found in study plots associated with wind turbines, and approximately Bird mortality from wind turbines should be put into perspective. The Cato Institute projects: "Ten thousand cumulative (emphasis added) bird deaths from 1,731 MW of installed U.S. capacity [as of 1995] are the equivalent of 4.4 million bird deaths across the entire capacity of the U.S. electricity market (approximately 770 GW)" (Bradley 1997), and uses this figure as argument against expansion of wind energy. However, in reality, even if wind power supplied all of the country’s electricity, bird fatalities would still be dwarfed by the mortality figures for other types of structures: vehicles, 60 to 80 million; buildings, 98 to 980 million; power lines, up to 174 million; communication towers, 4 to 50 million (Erickson et al. 2001). Furthermore, the American Bird Conservancy estimates that feral and domestic outdoor cats probably kill on the order of hundreds of millions of birds per year (Case 2000). One study estimated that in Wisconsin alone, annual bird kill by rural cats might range from 7.8 to 217 million birds per year (Colemen & Temple 1995)."

"Studies have indicated that relatively low raptor (e.g., hawks, eagles) fatality rates exist at most wind energy developments with the exception of some facilities in parts of California. All developments studied have reported fewer than 14 bird (all species combined) fatalities per nameplate MW per year, and most have reported less than 4 fatalities per MW per year. Although several developments have reported relatively numerous bat fatalities, most studies have reported low rates of such bat fatalities."

"In a review of mortality reports from utilities, wildlife rehabilitators and falconers between 1986 and 1996, The results were clear: it turns out wind farms kill ten times fewer birds than fossil fuel power plants. Specifically, wind farms and nuclear power plants kill only 0.3 to 0.4 birds per GWh of electricity generated, while oil, gas, and coal power plants kill 5.4 birds per GWh of electricity generated."

"Oil and wastewater pits may kill up to 2 million birds per year."

"Oil spills can be a significant source of bird mortality, but the occurrence of spills and the effect and are obviously difficult to predict. Over 30,000 bird carcasses were recovered, including Hawks and owls in turn become victims when they are attracted by struggling birds or small mammals."

"Birds and mammals become soaked in oil. The oil reduces the thermal properties of their feathers or fur and they eventually die from hypothermia and starvation. Scavengers - vultures, eagles, hawks - that eat the oil-soaked carcasses often die from petroleum ingestion."
 

Mr. H.

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"Oil spills can be a significant source of bird mortality, but the occurrence of spills and the effect and are obviously difficult to predict. Over 30,000 bird carcasses were recovered, including Hawks and owls in turn become victims when they are attracted by struggling birds or small mammals."

"Birds and mammals become soaked in oil. The oil reduces the thermal properties of their feathers or fur and they eventually die from hypothermia and starvation. Scavengers - vultures, eagles, hawks - that eat the oil-soaked carcasses often die from petroleum ingestion."

I think this chart (from your link) speaks to the ridiculousness of this thread. Mind you it's from 2003.

birds.jpg
 
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LOki

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I think this chart (from your link) speaks to the ridiculousness of this thread. Mind you it's from 2003.

birds.jpg
Oh, I know this; but try to explain that to wirebender up there, who is convinced that three 150' blades spinning at 15 rpm are an unavoidable poultry meat-grinder; a bird-of-prey holocaust.
 

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