Black Hole, Event horizon

Frannie

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The notion of an event horizon (EH) was originally based on escape velocity of light, meaning that light originating from EH boundary could escape, and light originating inside EH could cross it temporarily but would return. Later a strict definition was introduced as a boundary beyond which events cannot affect any outside observer at all.

An event horizon is most commonly associated with black holes, but can, in principle, arise and evolve in exactly flat regions of spacetime if a hollow spherically symmetric thin shell of matter is collapsing in a vacuum spacetime.
The black hole event horizon is teleological in nature, meaning that we need to know the entire future space-time of the universe to determine the current location of the horizon, which is essentially impossible. Because of the purely theoretical nature of the event horizon boundary, the traveling object doesn't necessarily experience strange effects and does, in fact, pass through the calculatory boundary in a finite amount of proper time.






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Event horizon - Wikipedia
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Dan Stubbs

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The notion of an event horizon (EH) was originally based on escape velocity of light, meaning that light originating from EH boundary could escape, and light originating inside EH could cross it temporarily but would return. Later a strict definition was introduced as a boundary beyond which events cannot affect any outside observer at all.

An event horizon is most commonly associated with black holes, but can, in principle, arise and evolve in exactly flat regions of spacetime if a hollow spherically symmetric thin shell of matter is collapsing in a vacuum spacetime.
The black hole event horizon is teleological in nature, meaning that we need to know the entire future space-time of the universe to determine the current location of the horizon, which is essentially impossible. Because of the purely theoretical nature of the event horizon boundary, the traveling object doesn't necessarily experience strange effects and does, in fact, pass through the calculatory boundary in a finite amount of proper time.






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Event horizon - Wikipedia
Still looks like a round planet...
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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The notion of an event horizon (EH) was originally based on escape velocity of light, meaning that light originating from EH boundary could escape, and light originating inside EH could cross it temporarily but would return. Later a strict definition was introduced as a boundary beyond which events cannot affect any outside observer at all.

An event horizon is most commonly associated with black holes, but can, in principle, arise and evolve in exactly flat regions of spacetime if a hollow spherically symmetric thin shell of matter is collapsing in a vacuum spacetime.
The black hole event horizon is teleological in nature, meaning that we need to know the entire future space-time of the universe to determine the current location of the horizon, which is essentially impossible. Because of the purely theoretical nature of the event horizon boundary, the traveling object doesn't necessarily experience strange effects and does, in fact, pass through the calculatory boundary in a finite amount of proper time.






View attachment 268463

Event horizon - Wikipedia
Still looks like a round planet...
But, a black hole is a star.
 

zaangalewa

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Oh by the way: what happens when one of two entangled particles oversteps the event horizon of a black hole? Stays the entanglement existing?
As I understand it, yes, but you will likely never be able to confirm it. The entagled particle that crosses the event horizon is, from the outside particle, simply smeared across the event horizon. If you could measure the state of every particle, smeared or otherwise, at juuuuust above the event horizon (an, essentially, impossible task, as it is infinitely thin, and you wont know when you have reached it), you would be able to record the entanglement.

Not that this is the only explanation, but the different explanations generally do not directly contradict one another,in what i have read.
Hmmm ....To be able to confirm it or not is perhaps not the real question. I guess you say "We are not able not watch it without to watch it". The moment we watch it, we are defining it the same time. But because a minimal cause is able to have a maximal effect a change within a black hole could be transported outside of the black hole and continue to cause something ( and backwards too) ... Is the principle which realizes that entanglement is possible - whatever this principle could be - perhaps the deeper reason why everywhere in the universe - ¿ also in black holes? - are existing the same natural laws and constants?
 

Frannie

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Oh by the way: what happens when one of two entangled particles oversteps the event horizon of a black hole? Stays the entanglement existing?
As I understand it, yes, but you will likely never be able to confirm it. The entagled particle that crosses the event horizon is, from the outside particle, simply smeared across the event horizon. If you could measure the state of every particle, smeared or otherwise, at juuuuust above the event horizon (an, essentially, impossible task, as it is infinitely thin, and you wont know when you have reached it), you would be able to record the entanglement.

Not that this is the only explanation, but the different explanations generally do not directly contradict one another,in what i have read.
Hmmm ....To be able to confirm it or not is perhaps not the real question. I guess you say "We are not able not watch it without to watch it". The moment we watch it, we are defining it the same time. But because a minimal cause is able to have a maximal effect a change within a black hole could be transported outside of the black hole and continue to cause something ( and backwards too) ... Is the principle which realizes that entanglement is possible - whatever this principle could be - perhaps the deeper reason why everywhere in the universe - ¿ also in black holes? - are existing the same natural laws and constants?
Yea what u said...………………...
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Oh by the way: what happens when one of two entangled particles oversteps the event horizon of a black hole? Stays the entanglement existing?
As I understand it, yes, but you will likely never be able to confirm it. The entagled particle that crosses the event horizon is, from the outside particle, simply smeared across the event horizon. If you could measure the state of every particle, smeared or otherwise, at juuuuust above the event horizon (an, essentially, impossible task, as it is infinitely thin, and you wont know when you have reached it), you would be able to record the entanglement.

Not that this is the only explanation, but the different explanations generally do not directly contradict one another,in what i have read.
Hmmm ....To be able to confirm it or not is perhaps not the real question. I guess you say "We are not able not watch it without to watch it". The moment we watch it, we are defining it the same time. But because a minimal cause is able to have a maximal effect a change within a black hole could be transported outside of the black hole and continue to cause something ( and backwards too) ... Is the principle which realizes that entanglement is possible - whatever this principle could be - perhaps the deeper reason why everywhere in the universe - ¿ also in black holes? - are existing the same natural laws and constants?
Your original question is the information paradox, restated.
 

zaangalewa

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Oh by the way: what happens when one of two entangled particles oversteps the event horizon of a black hole? Stays the entanglement existing?
As I understand it, yes, but you will likely never be able to confirm it. The entagled particle that crosses the event horizon is, from the outside particle, simply smeared across the event horizon. If you could measure the state of every particle, smeared or otherwise, at juuuuust above the event horizon (an, essentially, impossible task, as it is infinitely thin, and you wont know when you have reached it), you would be able to record the entanglement.

Not that this is the only explanation, but the different explanations generally do not directly contradict one another,in what i have read.
Hmmm ....To be able to confirm it or not is perhaps not the real question. I guess you say "We are not able not watch it without to watch it". The moment we watch it, we are defining it the same time. But because a minimal cause is able to have a maximal effect a change within a black hole could be transported outside of the black hole and continue to cause something ( and backwards too) ... Is the principle which realizes that entanglement is possible - whatever this principle could be - perhaps the deeper reason why everywhere in the universe - ¿ also in black holes? - are existing the same natural laws and constants?
Your original question is the information paradox, restated.
I spoke not about an information paradox. What do you think is the paradoxy? And what kind of "information" do you use for this paradox? Negentropy? Mathematics? Philosophy? Ideas? Language? Our existence? ... A far as I can see it looks like that the event horizon of a black hole (=which is equivalent to the entropy of a black hole) works somehow like a kind of splitter - or better to say like a kind of divider. Looks like negentropy (=information in the physical sense of this word) keeps outside. Better to say the entropy of a black hole seems to be like a kind of skin which separates inside and outside. Perhaps the inside of a black hole is absolutelly without any information (negentropy) while the skin is the whole entropy? Then it would not be astonishing that we are not able to find a way, how to find out, what's going on in a black hole. Perhaps nothing goes on in a black hole?

 
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Dalia

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The notion of an event horizon (EH) was originally based on escape velocity of light, meaning that light originating from EH boundary could escape, and light originating inside EH could cross it temporarily but would return. Later a strict definition was introduced as a boundary beyond which events cannot affect any outside observer at all.

An event horizon is most commonly associated with black holes, but can, in principle, arise and evolve in exactly flat regions of spacetime if a hollow spherically symmetric thin shell of matter is collapsing in a vacuum spacetime.
The black hole event horizon is teleological in nature, meaning that we need to know the entire future space-time of the universe to determine the current location of the horizon, which is essentially impossible. Because of the purely theoretical nature of the event horizon boundary, the traveling object doesn't necessarily experience strange effects and does, in fact, pass through the calculatory boundary in a finite amount of proper time.






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Event horizon - Wikipedia
Wikipedia written by 8 year olds
You are never satisfied with anything, you are god perhaps?
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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I spoke not about an information paradox.
But you did. The question about entangled particles speaks directly to it. The puzzle is, essentially, a reiteration of the information paradox.
Explain me what paradox you are speaking about.
Well,one emtangled particle falls in. Its energy content is later released from the black hole via hawking radiation. This is the essence of the information paradox.
 

zaangalewa

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I spoke not about an information paradox.
But you did. The question about entangled particles speaks directly to it. The puzzle is, essentially, a reiteration of the information paradox.
Explain me what paradox you are speaking about.
Well,one emtangled particle falls in. Its energy content is later released from the black hole via hawking radiation. This is the essence of the information paradox.
The vaccuum is full of virtual particles which appear as particles and anti-particles and dissapear again. In the near of a black hole it can happen a particle (or anti-particle) falls into the black hole and the other one dissapears somewhere in direction rest of the universe. This particle is real now - and got its energy from the mass of the black hole. That's the Hawking radiation.

Entangled particles have nothing to do with Hawking radiation. When you have one in your hand - best to be a ghost in this case - and someone changes its entangled counterpart in the Andromeda galaxy then you will see this now - immediatelly - and not in some few million years. Einstein called this a "spookie distant effect".
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Entangled oarticles have nothing to do with Hawking radiation.
False. Any particle that falls into a black hole has to do with hawking radiation. Any particle that falls in adds to the mass of the black hole. Hawking radiation depends completely on the mass of the black hole, and itself represents loss of that mass.

You should go read up. Your initial question was an excellent question, and, I assure you, speaks right to the information paradox.
 

zaangalewa

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Entangled oarticles have nothing to do with Hawking radiation.
False. Any particle that falls into a black hole has to do with hawking radiation. Any particle that falls in adds to the mass of the black hole. Hawking radiation depends completely on the mass of the black hole, and itself represents loss of that mass.

You should go read up. Your initial question was an excellent question, and, I assure you, speaks right to the information paradox.
Read again what I wrote - you are to fast. When a particle falls into a black hole then the mass of a black hole just simple grows. It's the process which brings a virtual particle out of the vacuum into an [independent] reality within this universe (Hawking radiation), which costs a black hole energy.

And still I don't know what you call "information paradox"

 
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zaangalewa

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Read again what I wrote - you are to fast.
I did. My point stands.
The problem is: What for heavens sake did you say? What is the "information paradox" you speak about? So what point stands?
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia
Okay - you think informations falls together with the mass (energy) into a back hole. I'm not sure about this. I thought information stays here.

... On the other hand it depends what we see under "information". When you destroy a coffee pot and you have a good glue then you are able to repair it. You use for this repaIr the ability to solve puzzles and a plan of the coffee pot and the result will be an individual coffee pot. In case a coffee pot falls in a black hole the radiations of the black hole




will send for example exactly the matter and/or energy of the coffee pot back and you are able to collect this as particles in the amount of the mass or energy of this coffee pot in a box - but what to do with this puzzle now? Where is this form now? Which glue to use? Which plan? Specially: where is its individuality now? The entropy is high and so the negentropy (information) is low. But what was before? Where was it before? ... If you had a time machine and you could follow the way back in time of one or some of the particles in this box then you could find the [common] form in the past. So we can say for sure the form of the coffee pot did not really leave our universe. ... The black hole makes it perhaps only impossible to find it, when we will not be able to follow this particles. But a black hole violates not the principle of the conservation of energy - so why should it hurt a principle of the conservation of information, if such a principle exists really in quantum mechanics, what I do not know in the moment too. Specially I do not know what this really means.

Some of your atoms were for example once part of a form with the name "Cleopatra". So when you could follow the way of this atoms in time then you could find her. Is it a real paradox that the atoms of her body (better to say the atoms of her bodies, because we use every 20 years completely new atoms) are organized now in other ways? Makes this you to Cleopatra or Cleopatra to you? So what is the relevant "information"? Really "negentropy"?


Trojan room coffee pot

 
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Frannie

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Read again what I wrote - you are to fast.
I did. My point stands.
The problem is: What for heavens sake did you say? What is the "information paradox" you speak about? So what point stands?
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia
Okay - you think informations falls together with the mass (energy) into a back hole. I'm not sure about this. I thought information stays here.

... On the other hand it depends what we see under "information". When you destroy a coffee pot and you have a good glue then you are able to repair it. You use for this repaIr the ability to solve puzzles and a plan of the coffee pot and the result will be an individual coffee pot. In case a coffee pot falls in a black hole the radiations of the black hole




will send for example exactly the matter and/or energy of the coffee pot back and you are able to collect this as particles in the amount of the mass or energy of this coffee pot in a box - but what to do with this puzzle now? Where is this form now? Which glue to use? Which plan? Specially: where is its individuality now? The entropy is high and so the negentropy (information) is low. But what was before? Where was it before? ... If you had a time machine and you could follow the way back in time of one or some of the particles in this box then you could find the [common] form in the past. So we can say for sure the form of the coffee pot did not really leave our universe. ... The black hole makes it perhaps only impossible to find it, when we will not be able to follow this particles. But a black hole violates not the principle of the conservation of energy - so why should it hurt a principle of the conservation of information, if such a principle exists really in quantum mechanics, what I do not know in the moment too. Specially I do not know what this really means.

Some of your atoms were for example once part of a form with the name "Cleopatra". So when you could follow the way of this atoms in time then you could find her. Is it a real paradox that the atoms of her body (better to say the atoms of her bodies, because we use every 20 years completely new atoms) are organized now in other ways? Makes this you to Cleopatra or Cleopatra to you? So what is the relevant "information"? Really "negentropy"?


Trojan room coffee pot

No one is sure about anything, zippo of the math works...……………...
 

zaangalewa

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Read again what I wrote - you are to fast.
I did. My point stands.
The problem is: What for heavens sake did you say? What is the "information paradox" you speak about? So what point stands?
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia
Okay - you think informations falls together with the mass (energy) into a back hole. I'm not sure about this. I thought information stays here.

... On the other hand it depends what we see under "information". When you destroy a coffee pot and you have a good glue then you are able to repair it. You use for this repaIr the ability to solve puzzles and a plan of the coffee pot and the result will be an individual coffee pot. In case a coffee pot falls in a black hole the radiations of the black hole




will send for example exactly the matter and/or energy of the coffee pot back and you are able to collect this as particles in the amount of the mass or energy of this coffee pot in a box - but what to do with this puzzle now? Where is this form now? Which glue to use? Which plan? Specially: where is its individuality now? The entropy is high and so the negentropy (information) is low. But what was before? Where was it before? ... If you had a time machine and you could follow the way back in time of one or some of the particles in this box then you could find the [common] form in the past. So we can say for sure the form of the coffee pot did not really leave our universe. ... The black hole makes it perhaps only impossible to find it, when we will not be able to follow this particles. But a black hole violates not the principle of the conservation of energy - so why should it hurt a principle of the conservation of information, if such a principle exists really in quantum mechanics, what I do not know in the moment too. Specially I do not know what this really means.

Some of your atoms were for example once part of a form with the name "Cleopatra". So when you could follow the way of this atoms in time then you could find her. Is it a real paradox that the atoms of her body (better to say the atoms of her bodies, because we use every 20 years completely new atoms) are organized now in other ways? Makes this you to Cleopatra or Cleopatra to you? So what is the relevant "information"? Really "negentropy"?


Trojan room coffee pot

No one is sure about anything,
What's "wise" nonsense: hot water cooks for example. And "everything is relative" is for example nonsense too. Some parameters are relative to the absolute speed of the light - that's what the theory of relativity says. It says not "everything is relative".

zippo of the math works...……………...
Mathematics works - somehow, if you are damned good - but which mathematics in what kind of context? A paradox in natural science shows normally only that we suffer a lack of knowledge or we have a wrong view to the problems. In this special case I have still a very big problem to understand the paradox at all.

 
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