Bill To End US Extrajudicial Killings

Madeline

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Tech_Esq

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It appears that Kucinich likes the Imam in Yemen that is technically a US citizen, but is now focused on recruiting people for terror attacks in the US.

I'm a firm believer in trying criminals, but unlike Denny here, I know the difference between a war and a crime scene. Killing unlawful enemy combatants should be the rule no matter their country of origin.
 
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Madeline

Madeline

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This won't sound all that civilized, but really, don't we hire assasins in the CIA to carry out killings essential to national security? Why the fuck would I want to tie their hands if, by definition, the person getting smoked is a threat to my country? I could give a fuck whether they are US citizens; if they are flying here with a suitcase bomb, then please kill them.

What happened to make this a hot issue? Did the US get drug into a court of international law? I'm not seeing any breaking news; just that Iman in Yemen who was raised in New Mexico. Why's he still a US citizen anyway?

U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric - NYTimes.com


The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday.

Mr. Awlaki, who was born in New Mexico and spent years in the United States as an imam, is in hiding in Yemen. He has been the focus of intense scrutiny since he was linked to Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Tex., in November, and then to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Nigerian man charged with trying to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner on Dec. 25.
 
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Tech_Esq

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From the people I know, and living around DC you get to know some people. There are plenty of agents in three letter agencies fully capable of successfully pulling the trigger. CIA is but one. I don't think they need to find contractors. Also, the shooting (or whatever the means is) is the simple part. Finding the person to terminate is the challenging part. You don't become the target of a national government without realizing the fact and taking precautions. Individuals a very small needles in a VERY big haystack. And, the needle can move on it's own. Tricky business.

But I don't have problem with the gist of what you say. We're in a war. They declared it, they wanted it that way. They continue to carry out acts of war, courts have little or no place in the middle of a war. It jeopardizes the judicial system if you try to force it there.
 
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Madeline

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But wasn't there a trial of US government employees (held in Spain I think; my Google-Fu fails me) over the killing of some threat to national security we engaged in there? Are there allegations that the US has abused this extraordinary power?

I don't entirely follow along what's happened. I don't even completely understand how Top Secret CIA activities can even be news.
 

syrenn

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How could anyone argue against Kucinich's efforts in this regard? But I suppose they will.
There is no justification for the government ever killing anyone, especially without due process. Everyone should be behing Kucinch on this, including Obama.
Well I am not part of the government and I would be happy to pull the trigger. :)
 

Tech_Esq

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But wasn't there a trial of US government employees (held in Spain I think; my Google-Fu fails me) over the killing of some threat to national security we engaged in there? Are there allegations that the US has abused this extraordinary power?

I don't entirely follow along what's happened. I don't even completely understand how Top Secret CIA activities can even be news.
I think I recall the trial that you're talking about Spain or Italy. I think one was a rendition trial and another a "murder" trial.

"Sound and fury signifying nothing"

They are sending a message that they don't like it when the US flexes it's muscles. It makes them feel small and insignificant and they don't like that. It's up to us to decide whether we care or not.

The apologizer in chief, he cares. Me, not so much. But, the Apologizer knows that if there is a successful terror attack on his watch, he's finished. So, he does the minimum.

CIA activities are always news when they are exposed. In this case, it hasn't been much of a secret that it's the policy of the US to hunt down and kill certain individuals including some traitorous Americans.
 

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How could anyone argue against Kucinich's efforts in this regard? But I suppose they will.
There is no justification for the government ever killing anyone, especially without due process. Everyone should be behing Kucinch on this, including Obama.
The justification is called war. Perhaps you've heard of this????

Here we go.....
 

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I'm a firm believer in trying criminals, but unlike Denny here, I know the difference between a war and a crime scene.
Do you really?

Killing unlawful enemy combatants should be the rule no matter their country of origin.
OK - I get it. Just call them "enemy combatants" and voila! - you can hunt 'em down and snuff 'em out with impunity.

If I hide a bomb in a downtown building and then set it off, I would be tried in criminal court, convicted and sent to prison. That is what we call a crime. And the place where it happens is a crime scene. If I take over a 737 and fly it into a building, same thing - I would be tried and convicted in a criminal court of law. I may even do all of these things because I am crazy, and think the government needs to be abolished and the best way to make a statement about that is to do something violent to a lot of people. Doesn't matter. It is a crime and it is tried in criminal court. I am no more an "enemy combatant" than I am a college cheerleader.

What is the difference if the acts are committed by Middle East guys who hate America? Still a crime. Still should be processed as a crime in our criminal justice system.

Of course, if we have a cowboy for a president and a bunch of raving, John Wayne type neocons egging him on, it can be called an "act of war" and those who do it dubbed "enemy combatants," so, when we catch them, we can kill them on sight, deny them the rights normally provided to one accused of crime, torture them or do whatever the hell we want with them.

I, for one, don't buy it. Extrajudicial killings are simply wrong. Kucinich is spot on with this bill.
 

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Quantum Windbag

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Well I am not part of the government and I would be happy to pull the trigger. :)
I have no problem with that at all, as long as the government does not order it or support you. Then I would use jury nullification to get you off.
 

Quantum Windbag

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How could anyone argue against Kucinich's efforts in this regard? But I suppose they will.
There is no justification for the government ever killing anyone, especially without due process. Everyone should be behing Kucinch on this, including Obama.
The justification is called war. Perhaps you've heard of this????

Here we go.....
War is not murder. Targeting individuals who are judged guilty of committing criminal acts and killing them is not war.
 

Tech_Esq

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There is no justification for the government ever killing anyone, especially without due process. Everyone should be behing Kucinch on this, including Obama.
The justification is called war. Perhaps you've heard of this????

Here we go.....
War is not murder. Targeting individuals who are judged guilty of committing criminal acts and killing them is not war.
Please differentiate the assassination of Adm. Yamamoto during WW II from the proposed policy. We're at war and we are killing, singly or in groups, the opposing force's warriors, your categorizing of their activities notwithstanding.
 

Tech_Esq

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I'm a firm believer in trying criminals, but unlike Denny here, I know the difference between a war and a crime scene.
Do you really?

Killing unlawful enemy combatants should be the rule no matter their country of origin.
OK - I get it. Just call them "enemy combatants" and voila! - you can hunt 'em down and snuff 'em out with impunity.

If I hide a bomb in a downtown building and then set it off, I would be tried in criminal court, convicted and sent to prison. That is what we call a crime. And the place where it happens is a crime scene. If I take over a 737 and fly it into a building, same thing - I would be tried and convicted in a criminal court of law. I may even do all of these things because I am crazy, and think the government needs to be abolished and the best way to make a statement about that is to do something violent to a lot of people. Doesn't matter. It is a crime and it is tried in criminal court. I am no more an "enemy combatant" than I am a college cheerleader.

What is the difference if the acts are committed by Middle East guys who hate America? Still a crime. Still should be processed as a crime in our criminal justice system.

Of course, if we have a cowboy for a president and a bunch of raving, John Wayne type neocons egging him on, it can be called an "act of war" and those who do it dubbed "enemy combatants," so, when we catch them, we can kill them on sight, deny them the rights normally provided to one accused of crime, torture them or do whatever the hell we want with them.

I, for one, don't buy it. Extrajudicial killings are simply wrong. Kucinich is spot on with this bill.
It's the standard we have always used. So have all armies throughout the world. Some you can easily tell, we have the Imam in Yemen subborning acts of war against the US. This qualifies him for the hit parade. Don't waste my tax payer dollars treating him as a criminal. He is a warrior for the enemy and needs to be treated as such.
 

Quantum Windbag

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Please differentiate the assassination of Adm. Yamamoto during WW II from the proposed policy. We're at war and we are killing, singly or in groups, the opposing force's warriors, your categorizing of their activities notwithstanding.
Why? Is there something about my stance that is ambiguous?

War is fighting an armed foe on a battlefield. Unless I am misremembering my history Yamamoto wore a uniform, was in a military aircraft with armed escorts, and was flying through a war zone.

Anything less than that is murder, even if the person you kill is aiding and abetting criminal acts or war.
 

Quantum Windbag

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It's the standard we have always used. So have all armies throughout the world. Some you can easily tell, we have the Imam in Yemen subborning acts of war against the US. This qualifies him for the hit parade. Don't waste my tax payer dollars treating him as a criminal. He is a warrior for the enemy and needs to be treated as such.
Which does not make it right, it just means no one is going to call us on it.
 

Tech_Esq

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Please differentiate the assassination of Adm. Yamamoto during WW II from the proposed policy. We're at war and we are killing, singly or in groups, the opposing force's warriors, your categorizing of their activities notwithstanding.
Why? Is there something about my stance that is ambiguous?

War is fighting an armed foe on a battlefield. Unless I am misremembering my history Yamamoto wore a uniform, was in a military aircraft with armed escorts, and was flying through a war zone.

Anything less than that is murder, even if the person you kill is aiding and abetting criminal acts or war.
You are living in the past.

You need to learn to adapt to the world you live in. Or perish.
 

Quantum Windbag

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You are living in the past.

You need to learn to adapt to the world you live in. Or perish.
I am living in the past? Aren't you the one that is insisting that we have always done things this way?
 

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