Bill of Non-Rights: Do you agree or not?

[Disir]

There is no justification in allowing it to happen to begin with.

What does that have to do with the rights argument? You're off on a tangent.

I am on target.

No, you're arguing what you believe should be not what is, that's a completely different subject.

You're starting with a bill of non-rights. You do in fact have a right to health care and the authority like in tax and spend and general welfare clauses.

Well, no. You are conflating the concept of rights with the concept of governmental powers. Under the current interpretation of tax law, you do not have a RIGHT to free healthcare but the government has the POWER to provide it should they chose to through the tax code.

There is a MASSIVE difference between government powers and rights.

So, you are as ticked off about the hospital mergers as I am?

I have my choice of hospitals and surgeons. In fact i had the best because I took responsibility for my own healthcare.
Why not let the indigent go to a VA type hospital? After all you seem to think those are just fine for our veterans?
Not that I think our veterans dont deserve better of course.

My dad is a vet. He is dealing with the ramifications of Agent Orange. You are making assumptions of my views that don't exist.

My father died of ramifications of Agent Orange. He never considered burdening taxpayers with his problems.

I'm very sorry to hear that. America is totally liable when it comes to his health and we should have done everything in our power to make it right before he died.
It's shit like this that makes me question our dedication to our troops.
Every effort should have been made to help your father.
I salute your father and his sacrifice.

Dear Disir gallantwarrior and HereWeGoAgain
We all know the VA needs reform
and I've argued that prison reform would pay for health care if done right
by focusing on medical programs that train more providers by combining public service with the supervised internships and residencies.

Instead of fighting back and forth over health care,
would you support petitioning Governors and leaders in Congress to

Allow BOTH the existing ACA to be reformed by Democratic party members as an EQUAL CHOICE
(and to turn it into singlepayer by addressing Prison reform to reorganize resources per state
from there, so if states want more health care, they have to find cost effective ways to reduce the cost of crime)
AND the revised GOP plan to remove mandates AS AN EQUAL CHOICE
(to be developed by Republicans in charge of reforming VA and making that the first focus for funding)

So instead of voting for one version or the other, allow BOTH to be developed
as separate tracks for Democrats and their supporters to fund freely
(where mandates only apply to those convicted of a crime
or owing for debts or damages to public taxpayers thus justifying loss of liberty)
and for Republicans and their supporters to fund who believe in
free market choices and charities, or mandatory taxes paying for Vets etc.

What about Greens Libertarians and other parties:
the reimbursements owed to taxpayers for unconstitutional
abuses and contracts can be assessed with the help of other
parties, who serve as consultants with the other major parties,
whose members in govt are held responsible for the passage of ACA
and negligence in not amending or correcting it while serving in Congress.
So both the major parties owe the costs, and the other parties would be
enlisted to assess those costs and negotiate terms of collecting or crediting
back to taxpayers to invest in reforms as proposed:
the GOP taking on the VA to fix health care
from that angle, and Democrats taking on prison reform.

Would you support this proposal to pitch to the top 4 parties?

So, you want to take a bunch of confusing crap and make it more confusing you say?

I think more people are moving away from parties as they are quite useless. The VA, depending on where someone is at, contracts with other "health care" providers. In some areas the VA sucks and in some areas it is good.

The ACA should go down in flames with the exception of expansion to medicaid that many states did not expand on.

Prison reform has already been rolled out and was supported by those on the right and the left.

 

[EverCurious]

~Incoming rant~

Frankly, I don't care how you raise the money, I have no desire to pay for the medical expenses nor insurance of other Americans. Hand up, not a hand out. If someone's having a rough time, alright, I understand, but when you start talking about folks on welfare and section 8 and food stamps for years and years and years you are no longer talking about a "hand up." The compassion of the American people has been abused and anytime they say a word about reigning it in we get accused of being unfeeling monsters. I'm sick of hearing it and frankly I don't care about the bleeding heart's opinion's. This forced charity bullshit needs to stop. Welfare used to be a good idea because it was properly attributed, now it's become a political weapon and vote sales plan, and worse ya'll don't give a shit because your moral fiber is that low... (Then you have the audacity to call us "immoral" or "uncaring" when all the while you're the greedy piece of shit.)

As for the OWS 99% vs the 1% "hate the rich" "hate businesses" bullshit, **** off. It's my god damn property [money] stop trying to make it morally okay to steal it from me. Stop trying to tell me that /my/ hard work that got me into a well paid position is worth as much as the lazy ass lack of efforts of the bottom suckers. I started a career where I sell myself, my knowledge and my skills, to employees for however the **** much I agree to be paid for /my/ time, ergo it's /my/ god damn money, they didn't do jack shit to pay me so piss off about my salary "holding them down." Sell yourself instead of agreeing to work for less than you want moron. You don't like your pay? Go find a new job. This isn't ******* slavery, you can leave any job, at anytime, for any damn reason you want, get on it if you hate your job or want more pay. I'm thinking "I can't pay my bills" would be a good reason to find another job, or how about a second job. This isn't rocket science... Say you want a new TV but store X is grossly overcharging for it, then you go buy it somewhere else, it's that damn simple. Don't like your pay? Go somewhere else.

Take 30 seconds and look at these... animals coming out of colleges, look at their temper tantrums, and tell me that you honestly believe that the business owners and managers are not "paying them what their worth" or that we're unjustified in kicking these bratty spoiled pukes to the curb. You've been bitching at us for years and don't even look at the kinds of workers we "**** over" [aka don't pay as much as /they/ happen to want to be paid] LOOK AT THEM. LISTEN TO THEM. No shit we don't promote them to manager! This is just the latest crop of these fucktwits we've had to deal with - who do you think is ******* teaching them? Yea businesses have had to deal with /all/ of them including the teachers. And IF we extend ourselves and give them the benefit of the doubt, and promote them into a position of responsibility then /they/ **** up, it's our ass on the line, our business getting fucked over - no shit we're picky about who we make manager and CEO. Then you morons wonder why we hire foreign labor pools like Mexico, where folks actually do their job, and do a fine ass job at that, or Asia where their entire culture teaches responsibility and work ethics. No shit we hire foreigners (LEGALLY) because American's have become spoiled useless and are a serious god damn liability to us. (Note, businesses that hire illegals should be fined.)

It's not my fault that these idiots spend more than they make. I didn't **** their girlfriends and get them pregnant. I didn't make them drop out of HS. I didn't force their stupid ass to come into work late all the time when I, and other employees, were counting on them. I didn't make them "sick" every/every other ******* Friday or Monday (yea we notice that happy coincidence when we sign your paychecks.) I didn't force them to steal from the till or the supply room. I didn't make them treat my customers like shit. I didn't make them do a half-ass job and make me and/or my employer look bad. I didn't force them to lease a car (in fact, 90% of us will tell you you're a moron if you lease a car, but of course you never ask the rich for advice cause "you know better") I didn't force them to go out and buy the latest iPhone at $1k a pop. I didn't force them to buy a flat screen TV. I didn't stop them from getting a second job, or looking for a better paying job in their time off, or even from quitting.

These people have every opportunity in the world to prove that they are worth their salt and earn a damn raise, (We sorely need manager types in almost every business out there) and yet for some "mysterious" reason they can't seem to get over that low wage hurdle of acting properly and giving a shit about their work ethics and my/my businesses reputation - and that's /OUR/ fault?!? Bullshit stop blaming us for their shit ass work ethics and bad decisions. We're more than happy to pay big money to our worthy employees; just look at how much we pay our managers and CEO's you ******* morons.

~Yoga pose~

You have the right to look for an employee that pays whatever you feel you are worth, however, they do not have the obligation to pay you what /you/ think you are worth, but rather they pay you what /they/ feel you are worth - because it's /their/ right to hire their employees. Stop forcing us to pay shit workers more than they are worth, especially when you are going to blame and sue us whenever /they/ ****-up. Our customers want us to ensure that our employees treat everyone right and do a good job and that's exactly what we do. Fix your schools and put out employees who are promote-able and we'll happily pay them more, put out enough of them and you can have your "revenge" because we'll start paying managers and CEO's less while simultaneously providing you the customer even better service...

 

[FA_Q2]

What does that have to do with the rights argument? You're off on a tangent.

I am on target.

No, you're arguing what you believe should be not what is, that's a completely different subject.

You're starting with a bill of non-rights. You do in fact have a right to health care and the authority like in tax and spend and general welfare clauses.

Well, no. You are conflating the concept of rights with the concept of governmental powers. Under the current interpretation of tax law, you do not have a RIGHT to free healthcare but the government has the POWER to provide it should they chose to through the tax code.

There is a MASSIVE difference between government powers and rights.

I know what the difference is.

Clearly you do not.

You have declared that there is a right to free healthcare. That is false.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I would advise you look into the last eight years to find your answer.

So, you are as ticked off about the hospital mergers as I am?

I have my choice of hospitals and surgeons. In fact i had the best because I took responsibility for my own healthcare.
Why not let the indigent go to a VA type hospital? After all you seem to think those are just fine for our veterans?
Not that I think our veterans dont deserve better of course.

My dad is a vet. He is dealing with the ramifications of Agent Orange. You are making assumptions of my views that don't exist.

My father died of ramifications of Agent Orange. He never considered burdening taxpayers with his problems.

I'm very sorry to hear that. America is totally liable when it comes to his health and we should have done everything in our power to make it right before he died.
It's shit like this that makes me question our dedication to our troops.
Every effort should have been made to help your father.
I salute your father and his sacrifice.

I thank you for your consideration. My father died almost 20 years ago, before there was concerted public support for military personnel. Even if services had been available, Dad would not have used them. Sometimes pride is a costly extravagance.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I would advise you look into the last eight years to find your answer.

So, you are as ticked off about the hospital mergers as I am?

I have my choice of hospitals and surgeons. In fact i had the best because I took responsibility for my own healthcare.
Why not let the indigent go to a VA type hospital? After all you seem to think those are just fine for our veterans?
Not that I think our veterans dont deserve better of course.

My dad is a vet. He is dealing with the ramifications of Agent Orange. You are making assumptions of my views that don't exist.

My father died of ramifications of Agent Orange. He never considered burdening taxpayers with his problems.

Are you claiming my father has?

I don't think I did, but I suppose you will interpret my words as you wish.

 

[gallantwarrior]

So, you are as ticked off about the hospital mergers as I am?

I have my choice of hospitals and surgeons. In fact i had the best because I took responsibility for my own healthcare.
Why not let the indigent go to a VA type hospital? After all you seem to think those are just fine for our veterans?
Not that I think our veterans dont deserve better of course.

My dad is a vet. He is dealing with the ramifications of Agent Orange. You are making assumptions of my views that don't exist.

My father died of ramifications of Agent Orange. He never considered burdening taxpayers with his problems.

I'm very sorry to hear that. America is totally liable when it comes to his health and we should have done everything in our power to make it right before he died.
It's shit like this that makes me question our dedication to our troops.
Every effort should have been made to help your father.
I salute your father and his sacrifice.

Dear Disir gallantwarrior and HereWeGoAgain
We all know the VA needs reform
and I've argued that prison reform would pay for health care if done right
by focusing on medical programs that train more providers by combining public service with the supervised internships and residencies.

Instead of fighting back and forth over health care,
would you support petitioning Governors and leaders in Congress to

Allow BOTH the existing ACA to be reformed by Democratic party members as an EQUAL CHOICE
(and to turn it into singlepayer by addressing Prison reform to reorganize resources per state
from there, so if states want more health care, they have to find cost effective ways to reduce the cost of crime)
AND the revised GOP plan to remove mandates AS AN EQUAL CHOICE
(to be developed by Republicans in charge of reforming VA and making that the first focus for funding)

So instead of voting for one version or the other, allow BOTH to be developed
as separate tracks for Democrats and their supporters to fund freely
(where mandates only apply to those convicted of a crime
or owing for debts or damages to public taxpayers thus justifying loss of liberty)
and for Republicans and their supporters to fund who believe in
free market choices and charities, or mandatory taxes paying for Vets etc.

What about Greens Libertarians and other parties:
the reimbursements owed to taxpayers for unconstitutional
abuses and contracts can be assessed with the help of other
parties, who serve as consultants with the other major parties,
whose members in govt are held responsible for the passage of ACA
and negligence in not amending or correcting it while serving in Congress.
So both the major parties owe the costs, and the other parties would be
enlisted to assess those costs and negotiate terms of collecting or crediting
back to taxpayers to invest in reforms as proposed:
the GOP taking on the VA to fix health care
from that angle, and Democrats taking on prison reform.

Would you support this proposal to pitch to the top 4 parties?

Emily,
The foremost problem in resolving the battle over what to do and how to do it lies with our so-called representation. As long as Dems vs. Reps/Libs vs. Cons/any other diametric schism of similar nature exists in our elected governing bodies, I see no possible resolution.