Beware the Marxist world of Kamalla Harris: "There’s a big difference between equality and equity."

[dblack]

GASLIGHT THEATRE BULLSHIT PROJECTION ALERT

Whichever. He's dueling with Kamala over who can offer up the most "free shit".

 

[TruthNotBS]

Wrong

Every person has to work to survive it is true but that is true under any system. Choosing when and where and how to work and by whom is by definition VOLUNTARY.

You ae especially wrong about socialistyys and collectivists. In those systems you haveno chocie whatsoever and are forced to labor for others.

There is no democracy or democratic operation of any kind in any colllectivist system

Wrong

Correct. There's no choice in the matter under capitalism. You rent your life to a capitalist or starve to death, living under a bridge or sleeping next to a dumpster behind the Krispy Kreme. There's no choice in that.

Every person has to work to survive it is true but that is true under any system.

That depends on how you define work. However, let's assume that you're correct for the sake of argument, that doesn't imply that all labor requires the same amount of human energy or effort, nor is done under the same conditions. Is the work done as an exploited worker, who doesn't own the means of production or gets paid the market price of what they're producing? Does the person own the means of production? Is the production carried out in collaboration with the government, under contract, or some other arrangement?

There are several factors that you are ignoring when you make a blanket statement that every economic system or mode of production, requires human labor or drudgery. I would say that's not the case, provided technology is advanced enough.

You ae especially wrong about socialistyys and collectivists. In those systems you haveno chocie whatsoever and are forced to labor for others.

No, that's not the case. Socialism or its final objective, communism, is the means for everyone to own the means of production and everything they produce. It's the economic system of the future, due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence. The alternative to that is techno-feudalism, which is much worse. Having a wealthy tech-lord class that owns all of the advanced robotics, artificial intelligence, quantum-computers/supercomputers, and all of the facilities and other machinery of mass production leads to serfdom. That's what you are promoting when you fight against socialism in the modern age.

There is no democracy or democratic operation of any kind in any colllectivist system

That's the most absurd, preposterous statement you've defecated out of your keyboard on this thread so far. There's more democracy under democratic socialism or council-communism than exists under capitalism. In capitalism, the best that can exist at a national scale is plutocracy, a plutocratic oligarchy, ruled by the rich and powerful. They live in opulence while their employees live one paycheck away from being homeless, assuming they're even employed. No one has the right to food, housing, healthcare, an education, or a job, unlike in socialism, where at the very worst, people at least have housing and food is always available when the capitalists aren't imposing economic sanctions, bombing or invading their country.

When a capitalist empire like the US with its allies, imposes an economic embargo on your small developing socialist economy, your country is screwed. The US at the moment, owns the world's reserve currency and the international banking system. That is now gradually changing with BRICS, but it's going to take another 15, maybe even 25, 30 years before BRICS replaces the post-WW2, American-led system.

 

[Curried Goats]

Whichever. He's dueling with Kamala over who can offer up the most "free shit".

I wonder why the libertarian message of government should do nothing for you, vote for us, is unappealing to most people.

 

[dblack]

I wonder why the libertarian message of government should do nothing for you, vote for us, is unappealing to most people.

Because, free shit!

 

[Curried Goats]

Because, free shit!

Kicking and screaming pejoratives isn't impressive when my two year old grandson does it, even less so when you do it. It isn't free shit. We pay for government policies through these things called taxes.

 

[dblack]

Kicking and screaming pejoratives

Not a pejorative. Just a fact. Voters don't value free shit more than they value freedom. So, that's what we get.

 

[Curried Goats]

Not a pejorative. Just a fact. Voters don't value free shit more than they value freedom. So, that's what we get.

Value is subjective not factual. What you imagine people value is besides the point I was making.

 

[dblack]

Value is subjective not factual. What you imagine people value is besides the point I was making.

Oh.. my bad. I didn't realize you were trying to make a point. What is your point then?

 

[Curried Goats]

Oh.. my bad. I didn't realize you were trying to make a point. What is your point then?

That it isn't free shit. That's just your childish petulance. There are costs and benefits in living in a society and those cost and benefits are always shared. That's kind of the fucking point. To society that is. My point is that you're being an emo little bitch about it.

 

[dblack]

That it isn't free shit. That's just your childish petulance. There are costs and benefits in living in a society and those cost and benefits are always shared. That's kind of the fucking point.

When I use the phrase "free shit", I'm referring to the notion that government is there to provide you with your wants and needs. And you're right, voters want that more than what libertarians have to offer.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Not a pejorative. Just a fact. Voters don't value free shit more than they value freedom. So, that's what we get.

There's no freedom when you're going bankrupt with medical bills and you're one paycheck away from starving and living under a bridge. The capitalist system gives away the "free shit" to capitalists, who in many cases don't even work. Their baby-skinned, manicured hands have never seen a day of physical labor in their well-provisioned lives, supported by family trusts. You think Turmp's children and children born in the inner city or to your average working-class family, have the same opportunities and access to resources?
Here are the people receiving the "free-shit":

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

Download results as CSV or XML or Save your search (Click here for information on download subscriptions)

Socialism for the rich, and pick yourself up by your bootstraps capitalism for the rest of us. It always happens that way. The wealthy get more free-shit, and every opportunity in the world to remain empowered, with access to every resource they'll ever need to survive and thrive, while those who produce everything in this world, with the sweat of their brow, namely, the working-class, are struggling to feed and house themselves.

 

[Curried Goats]

When I use the phrase "free shit", I'm referring to the notion that government is there to provide you with your wants and needs. And you're right, voters want that more than what libertarians have to offer.

If government isn't there to address the concerns of voters then what do you think government should be about?

 

[dblack]

There's no freedom when you're going bankrupt with medical bills and you're one paycheck away from starving and living under a bridge. The capitalist system gives away the "free shit" to capitalists, who in many cases don't even work. Their baby-skinned, manicured hands have never seen a day of physical labor in their well-provisioned lives, supported by family trusts. You think Turmp's children and children born in the inner city or to your average working-class family, have the same opportunities and access to resources?
Here are the people receiving the "free-shit":

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

Download results as CSV or XML or Save your search (Click here for information on download subscriptions)

Socialism for the rich, and pick yourself up by your bootstraps capitalism for the rest of us. It always happens that way. The wealthy get more free-shit, and every opportunity in the world to remain empowered, with access to every resource they'll ever need to survive and thrive, while those who produce everything in this world, the working-class are struggling to feed and house themselves.

Wowza. That table has ninety-nine rows!

 

[TruthNotBS]

Wowza. That table has ninety-nine rows!

Ninety-nine examples of government "free-shit" being distributed to your beloved capitalist masters.

 

[dblack]

Ninety-nine examples of government "free-shit" being distributed to your beloved capitalist masters.

That's one big ass table!

Anyway, free shit is free shit. Lot's of businesses are riding the gravy train too. What's your point?

 

[dblack]

If government isn't there to address the concerns of voters then what do you think government should be about?

Libertarians think government is there to protect liberty. It's right there in the name!

 

[TruthNotBS]

When I use the phrase "free shit", I'm referring to the notion that government is there to provide you with your wants and needs. And you're right, voters want that more than what libertarians have to offer.

It's our labor that does that, not the government, which simply acts as a type of hired or commissioned manager. I would rather have a democratic government manage my large-scale civil projects and affairs, than a greedy, profit-pursing capitalist who keeps all of the resources and profits for himself. The people who work in the productive enterprise should own it together and it should be run democratically. Leadership must be elected by the people, not imposed by capitalism.

 

[dblack]

It's our labor that does that, not the government, which simply acts as a type of hired or commissioned manager. I would rather have ...

I've read enough of your posts to know that don't want what you'd rather have.

 

[TruthNotBS]

That's one big ass table!

Anyway, free shit is free shit. Lot's of businesses are riding the gravy train too. What's your point?

If the government can give the rich tens of billions of dollars yearly in subsidies, grants, tax cuts..etc, it can also provide services to the WORKING CLASS. Those who work and produce everything. A democratic government can be commissioned by its creators i.e. the people, to provide it with goods and services, which are produced by human labor or advanced automation (smart robotics, artificial intelligence..etc). A civil, democratic government can provide all of its citizens with a foundation of easily accessible resources upon which to develop a productive, prosperous life.

 

[dblack]

If the government can give the rich tens of billions of dollars yearly in subsidies, grants, tax cuts..etc, it can also provide services to the WORKING CLASS.

Yep. Free shit for everyone!