Ben Gurion: "We are the aggressors"

[P F Tinmore]

What does that have to do with anything?

Everything.

If you aren't ready to give up your home to people sworn to kill you don expect others to do it.

Which has what to do with historical similarities between Americans and Israeli's?

Or, what does it have to do with Israeli settlements in Occupied Territories taken from the Palestinians?

Seriously. Your comment comes off as pretty non-sequitor.

A major difference is that there was no international law against military conquest when the US was formed.

There was when Israel was formed.

 

[José]

Maybe there was no international law but something known as human decency already existed back then:

"For a nation as powerful as ours, waging a war against a bunch of unarmed nomads, is such a sad, shameful spectacle that I'm afraid it will still bring the ire of the Almighty against us and our descendents".

Letter sent by a US representative to US president Grant

 

[P F Tinmore]

International law is an attempt to put human decency into practice.

 

[Kondor3]

International law is an attempt to put human decency into practice.

From the Israeli vantage point, I'm fairly certain that the appropriate counter is:

"And where was your much-vaunted International Law, when five Arab nations refused to recognize the UN-mandated (under International Law) independent State of Israel and attacked us jointly on the very day of our declaration of Statehood? Did your International Law step in and force the invaders back across our borders? No. We did that ourselves.

And where was your much-vaunted International Law, when the Arab League pre-positioned masses of troops and war equipment on all of our borders in the run-up to the 1967 Six Day War? Did your Law step-in and force the aggressors to stand down before we found ourselves obliged to attack to destroy those assets before they began to roll, and to roll over us? No. We did that ourselves.

And where was your much-vaunted International Law, when our people were being expelled en masse from most of the Arab-Muslim countries of the region during the period 1948 to the 1970s, not in retaliation for anything that we did, but merely as a show of support for their brother Muslims, as they found a new (and UN and International Law - recognized) Jewish State in their midst, even though we (and the expelled people) had never harmed any of them? Did your Law prevent any of that? No. Who took care of those folks? We did that ourselves.

And, even during the early going after we achieved Statehood, and had not yet lifted a finger nor raised a voice against our Arab brethren internally, where was your much-vaunted International Law when some of your major players began to take-sides with the Arabs because of the oil, and began voting against us time and again in the UN General Assembly alongside the Arabs, thereby ensuring that we could never get a fair shake ourselves from that so-called august body? Whatever political clout that we could generate and muster as a counterweight once you showed us your hypocritical side- we did that ourselves.

And, for that matter, where was your much-vaunted International Law - Geneva, and the League of Nations, and the Red Cross, and The Hague, and the like - when 6,000,000 of our men, women and children were being slaughtered without mercy by EuroTrash within living memory? Did your Law prevent our disenfranchisement or property seizures or rounding-up or killing before it materialized? No. And the few of us who survived, we did that ourselves.

Over the centuries, and even very often within living memory, you have showed us exactly what your precious National and Church and Mosque and International Law is worth, in dealing with Jews and with Israel, and you have shown us exactly what your promises and guarantees are worth.

Nada. Zip. Zilch. Bopkess, Goat Shit.

And then you have the raw temerity to whine and cry and rant and rail against us for violating and not trusting in International Law?

Phukking hypocrites. Liars. Charlatans. Miscreants.

Go screw yourselves, the horses you rode in on, and, while we're at it, your mothers as well, for good measure.

A regional Arab whining about this is the very worst kind of hypocrite, in light of 1948 and 1967 and beyond. To them we say: 'Feel free to try taking our land any time you like. We will treat you to another round of Israeli military hospitality that should last you another generation or two before you losers forget the previous lesson and repeat your folly once again. Oh, and, do excuse the nukes in reserve, won't you, Abdul?'

After millennia of being the punching bag of Europeans and Muslims and Russians and Berbers and Moors and the like, and after being slaughtered damned-near to extinction, we finally wised-up and stopped playing your game, with the deck stacked against us.

We turned ourselves into a formidable military power in record time and carved-out a homeland from our ancestral turf, no thanks to any of you outsiders, and we sustain it by force of arms, just like many of you have done or are still doing.

We have learned to play your other game - the power game - and it frosts your asses that we have become so good at it.

Tough. Learn to live with it. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

To those outsiders who don't like it... piss off.

We keep our own counsel in such matters, not the counsel of hypocrites and liars and cowardly bystanders."

============================

< steps off the stage and drops the in-character persona >

Ahhhhh... that felt marvelous... I must have been an Israeli or militant Jew in a previous life...

Sorry... but you get the idea.

Hope that helps.

 

[Coyote]

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both.

Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?

 

[Coyote]

Everything.

If you aren't ready to give up your home to people sworn to kill you don expect others to do it.

Which has what to do with historical similarities between Americans and Israeli's?

Or, what does it have to do with Israeli settlements in Occupied Territories taken from the Palestinians?

Seriously. Your comment comes off as pretty non-sequitor.

A major difference is that there was no international law against military conquest when the US was formed.

There was when Israel was formed.

True.

But the sentiments and sense of entitlement and attitudes towards each other were very much the same.

It's very dangerous when entitlement comes from a diety.

 

[P F Tinmore]

International law is an attempt to put human decency into practice.

From the Israeli vantage point, I'm fairly certain that the appropriate counter is:

"And where was your much-vaunted International Law, when five Arab nations refused to recognize the UN-mandated (under International Law) independent State of Israel and attacked us jointly on the very day of our declaration of Statehood? Did your International Law step in and force the invaders back across our borders? No. We did that ourselves.

And where was your much-vaunted International Law, when the Arab League pre-positioned masses of troops and war equipment on all of our borders in the run-up to the 1967 Six Day War? Did your Law step-in and force the aggressors to stand down before we found ourselves obliged to attack to destroy those assets before they began to roll, and to roll over us? No. We did that ourselves.

And where was your much-vaunted International Law, when our people were being expelled en masse from most of the Arab-Muslim countries of the region during the period 1948 to the 1970s, not in retaliation for anything that we did, but merely as a show of support for their brother Muslims, as they found a new (and UN and International Law - recognized) Jewish State in their midst, even though we (and the expelled people) had never harmed any of them? Did your Law prevent any of that? No. Who took care of those folks? We did that ourselves.

And, even during the early going after we achieved Statehood, and had not yet lifted a finger nor raised a voice against our Arab brethren internally, where was your much-vaunted International Law when some of your major players began to take-sides with the Arabs because of the oil, and began voting against us time and again in the UN General Assembly alongside the Arabs, thereby ensuring that we could never get a fair shake ourselves from that so-called august body? Whatever political clout that we could generate and muster as a counterweight once you showed us your hypocritical side- we did that ourselves.

And, for that matter, where was your much-vaunted International Law - Geneva, and the League of Nations, and the Red Cross, and The Hague, and the like - when 6,000,000 of our men, women and children were being slaughtered without mercy by EuroTrash within living memory? Did your Law prevent our disenfranchisement or property seizures or rounding-up or killing before it materialized? No. And the few of us who survived, we did that ourselves.

Over the centuries, and even very often within living memory, you have showed us exactly what your precious National and Church and Mosque and International Law is worth, in dealing with Jews and with Israel, and you have shown us exactly what your promises and guarantees are worth.

Nada. Zip. Zilch. Bopkess, Goat Shit.

And then you have the raw temerity to whine and rant and rail against us for violating and not trusting in International Law.

Phukking hypocrites. Liars. Charlatans. Miscreants. Go screw yourselves, the horses you rode in on, and, while we're at it, your mothers as well, for good measure.

And a regional Arab whining about this is the very worst kind of hypocrite, in light of 1948 and 1967 and beyond. To them we say: 'Feel free to try taking our land any time you like. We will treat you to another round of Israeli military hospitality that should last you another generation or two before you losers forget the last time and repeat your folly once again. Oh, and, do excuse the nukes in reserve, won't you, Abdul?'

After millennia of being the punching bag of Europeans and Muslims and Russians and Berbers and Moors and the like, and after being slaughtered damned-near to extinction, we finally wised-up and stopped playing your game. We turned ourselves into a formidable military power in record time and carved-out a homeland from our ancestral turf, no thanks to any of you outsiders, and we sustain it by force of arms, just like many of you have done or are still doing. We have learned to play your game, and it frosts your ass that we have become so good at it.

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

To those outsiders who don't like it... piss off.

We keep our own counsel in such matters, not the counsel of hypocrites and liars and cowardly bystanders."

============================

< steps off the stage and drops the in-character persona >

Ahhhhh... that felt marvelous... I must have been an Israeli or militant Jew in a previous life...

Sorry... but you get the idea.

Hope that helps.

Did your International Law step in and force the invaders back across our borders?

Israel doesn't have any borders.

Go screw yourselves, the horses you rode in on, and, while we're at it, your mothers as well, for good measure.

BTW, no family.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both.

Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?

Indeed, the mandate called for a shared state with a shared government.

Israel was created outside of the terms of the mandate.

 

[Coyote]

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both.

Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?

Indeed, the mandate called for a shared state with a shared government.

Israel was created outside of the terms of the mandate.

Realistically, at this point in time - I do not think that would be possible without tremendous bloodshed. I think the level of hate and distrust on both sides has built up too much for that to be a realistic outcome. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"...The Arab leaders don't understand public relations as well as their Jewish counterparts..."

Their Jewish counterparts have had 1,900 years of experience in living as a scattered people at the whim of their regional or national rulers and have long-since learned how to hunker down and go quiet and survive and also to package themselves to best advantage...

At that rate, we can expect Arab and Palestinian leadership to achieve that level of marketing-savvy by, oh, say, the year 3900 CE (AD) or so.

Nature's (or God's, or whatever) way of leveling the playing field against overwhelming odds and resources.

You are so funny, Israel has only a 65 year history. Go educate yourself a bit. I am not one bit worried about the Palestinians survival, demographics and justice are on their side. And this thread is all about a Zionist leader who admitted Zionists were the aggressors of this conflict. Truth is always brought into the light. And injustices like Occupation always ultimately end. Thank God for that.

 

[Kondor3]

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

I don't know what to tell you on that score, Coyote... but, based on the above map, I give it 20 years... maybe less... the Palestinians are pretty much out of time already.

"...Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both..."

I'll stand by my prediction of the Israelis paying them off to move elsewhere. Given the way things are going, it's only a matter of time, and that time is drawing closer every year.

"...Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?"

Yes.

But...

"This town isn't big enough for the two of us, pardner, so one of us has to go."

Which is the way it's going to play out.

If it is a toss-up between the Jews having a homeland and the Palestinians having a homeland, sadly, but firmly, I'll come down in favor of ceding it to the Jews.

At least the Arab-Palestinians can find kindred spirits and ethnic brethren nearby.

If the Jews don't complete their consolidation of territory, they'll be finished as a People.

They have no bolt-hole... no place to run... if they lose this.

And I remember hearing something about them vowing not to let that happen ever again.

After what they've been through, I believe them.

I think it's coming down to a hard choice --- there never was enough room for both --- and there certainly isn't now --- so, I think, in actuality, it's a matter of deciding: Do the Jews get the land or do the Palestinians get the land? They can't coexist peacefully. Choose.

For better or worse, I've voiced my choice in the matter, which seems likely to come to a head within our lifetimes or shortly beyond.

Just personal opinion, mind you, but you asked.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both.

Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?

Indeed, the mandate called for a shared state with a shared government.

Israel was created outside of the terms of the mandate.

Realistically, at this point in time - I do not think that would be possible without tremendous bloodshed. I think the level of hate and distrust on both sides has built up too much for that to be a realistic outcome. I hope I'm wrong.

Anything that goes against what Israel wants is not "realistic." The world is moving toward a place where what Israel wants will be irrelevant.

 

[Coyote]

Indeed, the mandate called for a shared state with a shared government.

Israel was created outside of the terms of the mandate.

Realistically, at this point in time - I do not think that would be possible without tremendous bloodshed. I think the level of hate and distrust on both sides has built up too much for that to be a realistic outcome. I hope I'm wrong.

Anything that goes against what Israel wants is not "realistic." The world is moving toward a place where what Israel wants will be irrelevant.

I'm not thinking about what Israel "wants" but what is realistic and right for all parties concerned and that would not be a bloodbath.

What do you think is a realistic solution that is just for both sides?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both.

Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?

Indeed, the mandate called for a shared state with a shared government.

Israel was created outside of the terms of the mandate.

Realistically, at this point in time - I do not think that would be possible without tremendous bloodshed. I think the level of hate and distrust on both sides has built up too much for that to be a realistic outcome. I hope I'm wrong.

Demographics will ultimately take care of the matter, all the Palestinians have to do is remain steadfast. The word is samud, they fully understand what that word means. You cannot have a serious conversation with anyone in Gaza about the conflict without it being discussed. I do not see a two state solution coming about. But the people shall keep resisting and demanding intl law be abided by and demanding the human rights abuses end. And as in South Africa, resistance and BDS shall ultimately see an end to the abuses of Occupation and Apartheid in Palestine

 

[Kondor3]

"...BTW, no family."

I beg your forgiveness, PF... no personal offense was intended with that role-playing in support of the Israeli position. You and I are polar opposites in the matter of Israel and Palestine and may tangle from time to time but many of the veterans here perceive you to be a person of merit and value and heart and my own very brief observation points me in much the same direction, insofar as personal evaluation is concerned. In future, if and as we tangle on this issue, please - never - take such play-acting or other firmness personally. Please.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

I don't know what to tell you on that score, Coyote... but, based on the above map, I give it 20 years... maybe less... the Palestinians are pretty much out of time already.

"...Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both..."

I'll stand by my prediction of the Israelis paying them off to move elsewhere. Given the way things are going, it's only a matter of time, and that time is drawing closer every year.

"...Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?"

Yes.

But...

"This town isn't big enough for the two of us, pardner, so one of us has to go."

Which is the way it's going to play out.

If it is a toss-up between the Jews having a homeland and the Palestinians having a homeland, sadly, but firmly, I'll come down in favor of ceding it to the Jews.

At least the Arab-Palestinians can find kindred spirits and ethnic brethren nearby.

If the Jews don't complete their consolidation of territory, they'll be finished as a People.

They have no bolt-hole... no place to run... if they lose this.

And I remember hearing something about them vowing not to let that happen ever again.

After what they've been through, I believe them.

I think it's coming down to a hard choice --- there never was enough room for both --- and there certainly isn't now --- so, I think, in actuality, it's a matter of deciding: Do the Jews get the land or do the Palestinians get the land? They can't coexist peacefully. Choose.

For better or worse, I've voiced my choice in the matter, which seems likely to come to a head within our lifetimes or shortly beyond.

Just personal opinion, mind you, but you asked.

If the Jews don't complete their consolidation of territory, they'll be finished as a People.

And the acquisition of land through the threat or use of force is illegal.

 

[CMike]

What does that have to do with anything?

Everything.

If you aren't ready to give up your home to people sworn to kill you don expect others to do it.

Which has what to do with historical similarities between Americans and Israeli's?

Or, what does it have to do with Israeli settlements in Occupied Territories taken from the Palestinians?

Seriously. Your comment comes off as pretty non-sequitor.

Your premises are wrong.

There are no "Israeli settlements".

The occupied terroritories are occupied by jordanian and egyptian arabs.

There is no "Palestine."

Once again, "Palestine" was orignially created by the UN.

It was never accepted by the arabs.

The day it was to be effective the arabs invaded Israel for the purpose of wiping it out.

The arabs lost.

They don't get their marbles back. They tried to destroy Israel, they lost, those are the consequences.

The arab occupiers in Judea and Samaria are Jordinaian and Egyptian. They should go home.

Those arabs have made it extremely clear that they don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Therefore, Israel giving any of it's little, precious, land to be people who have sworn to destroy them would be suicidal.

It would be tantamount to giving up your home, to Al Qaida terrorists or other people who have sworn to murder you.

The arab settlements in judea and samaria need to go.

Israel has been far too restrained.

No other country would tolerate the arabs terrorist attacks against school buses, schools, buses, bus stations, and trains.

 

[Coyote]

Tough. It's a brave new world, and we're here to stay. On our terms, for once, not yours.

I think the Palestinians can say the same thing. They aren't going to conveniently disappear to convenience Israel.

I don't know what to tell you on that score, Coyote... but, based on the above map, I give it 20 years... maybe less... the Palestinians are pretty much out of time already.

"...Something needs to be worked out for the the benefit of both..."

Population demographics don't support that - you have 300,000 so-called settlers in occupied territories. You have 4 million Palestinians in those same areas.

I'll stand by my prediction of the Israelis paying them off to move elsewhere. Given the way things are going, it's only a matter of time, and that time is drawing closer every year.

Israel can't afford that - and they would not be willing to leave land that has been in their families for hundreds of years in some cases. Who would take them? You are looking at countries poor in water and agricultural land and they should somehow take 4 million people because those people are in Israel's way?

"...Both deserve the right to a homeland and recognition of that right. Yes? No?"

Yes.

But...

"This town isn't big enough for the two of us, pardner, so one of us has to go."

Which is the way it's going to play out.

If it is a toss-up between the Jews having a homeland and the Palestinians having a homeland, sadly, but firmly, I'll come down in favor of ceding it to the Jews.

No. There's room for both and always has been. The issue is greed not what is right.

No one has the right to a homeland at the expense of another. That is greed.

At least the Arab-Palestinians can find kindred spirits and ethnic brethren nearby.

That's a very ignorant statement - an assumption that all Arabs are alike and all those Middle East countries are the same. They aren't - and their national identities are different.

If the Jews don't complete their consolidation of territory, they'll be finished as a People.

Not at all. They have no need for Gaza or the West Bank. They can recede to their former borders and do just fine. They have by far the most powerful military and technology in that region. Once the Palestinian issue is resolved their neighbors will have little reason to not make peace for the sake of stability.

They have no bolt-hole... no place to run... if they lose this.

Keeping this is not dependent on keeping the land they stole currently referred to as the Occupied Territories. Israel has powerful allies. This is a false argument.

And I remember hearing something about them vowing not to let that happen ever again.

After what they've been through, I believe them.

I agree. Never again. But that is not nor should it ever be an acceptable excuse for the ethnic cleansing of another people or the theft of another people's right to self determination and the lands that have been theirs for generations. Accommodation can be made that allows their existance as well as that of the Palestinians.

I think it's coming down to a hard choice --- there never was enough room for both --- and there certainly isn't now --- so, I think, in actuality, it's a matter of deciding: Do the Jews get the land or do the Palestinians get the land? They can't coexist peacefully. Choose.

Here is my choice: I refuse to accept your false dichotomy. I refuse to accept that there is only room for one. There is room for many - if many are willing.

For better or worse, I've voiced my choice in the matter, which seems likely to come to a head within our lifetimes or shortly beyond.

Just personal opinion, mind you, but you asked.

Personal opinions are fine - mine is, mine

My opinion is yes - there can be no lasting nation that is built upon perpetrating an injustice.

 

[Kondor3]

"...You are so funny, Israel has only a 65 year history..."

That's why I'm here, Sherri... to be a source of amusement for you.

Israel and Judaism are inseparable. That history goes back at least 3,000 years and maybe more, and in that land, no less. Your Palestinians, however, are merely the descendants of the miscellany that drifted-in slowly over the centuries to fill the vacuum that they left behind, and they have no identity to speak of except that invented by Yassar Arafat in the past few decades, never mind a 3,000 -year-old history.

"...demographics and justice are on their side..."

It will be difficult to alter demographics without having land to live on or a pot to piss in. Look at the map. They're out of time. The end will come for them long before any forlorn hope of altering demographics are ever realized. As to 'justice', well, ask the Jews how well that has worked out for them over the past 1900 years, or the past 65, for that matter.

You're also quite correct that the so-called Occupation will end. We merely differ about the manner of that ending. The map tells the story.

 

[CMike]

Realistically, at this point in time - I do not think that would be possible without tremendous bloodshed. I think the level of hate and distrust on both sides has built up too much for that to be a realistic outcome. I hope I'm wrong.

Anything that goes against what Israel wants is not "realistic." The world is moving toward a place where what Israel wants will be irrelevant.

I'm not thinking about what Israel "wants" but what is realistic and right for all parties concerned and that would not be a bloodbath.

What do you think is a realistic solution that is just for both sides?

There is no solution.

It's something that has to be managed.

The arabs have made it clear that they don't want peace as long as Israel exists.

There isn't always a good solution.