Battle of Bakhmud won by Russia

[badger2]

It is always amusing to see Putinheads complain about cruelty after a full day of Russia bombing apartment buildings, schools and hospitals.

Low-IQ cherrypicking, while conveniently dismissing Chub nazis genociding their own in the Donbas since 2014.

 

[badger2]

^^^ the desperation of Zelensky and his thugs is showing!

Oh well, they will have to face reality sooner or later!

The nazis know that a few German leopards will be a flash in the pan. Russia defeated the Germans in WWII because of their adept tank-production philosophy: sheer numbers.

A rock and a hard place, deciding which cauldron to send Chub reinforcements. Bakhmut 2.0 is occurring @ Avdiivka.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Low-IQ cherrypicking, while conveniently dismissing Chub nazis genociding their own in the Donbas since 2014.

Only in your very disturbed imagination.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Correct ….
Correct ….
Correct ….

Disagree - since 1990 and respectively since 2000 (Putin) Russia had been involved in two minor conflicts - one due to Muslim terrorists and one in regards to supporting separatists in a Georgian breakaway province. NATO wooing Georgia is simply a bad idea. same goes for Ukraine. Now the USA and NATO since 1990 and respectively 2000 have been in several wars, that resulted in endless wars and total chaos and destruction in those countries.
So to interpret Putin's action towards only one country (where the reasons are obvious) - to be brutal imperial pretensions - simply doesn't stick. That's pure Western Media aka NATO hype.

Correct …. Correct ….

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. We agree on a great deal. As for the areas where you think we disagree … I accept your points about Georgia. Russia is obviously NOT a great modern “imperialist” power like the U.S. But its ideological and historical legacy and sheer size has left its people confused and helpless before its own state, while Russia’s leaders have long seen Ukraine as integral to Russia. Also, I note that in 2008 the U.S. bullied Germany & France into accepting that Georgia and Ukraine “will join NATO” — which was simply an asinine provocation.

At the time the majority of people in Ukraine did NOT agree with this idea, and most Ukrainians preferred preserving a more neutral status in which Ukraine would be free to trade with both sides and would not join any specific military bloc. However by then Ukrainian hard nationalists leading the Ukraine government, as well as American politicians like President Bush (and candidates McCain and Obama) were already pushing for “future” NATO membership.

While most Ukrainians were opposed to such a “provocation” in 2008, by the time of the Maidan overthrow of the corrupt but fairly and legally elected “pro-Russian” President Yanukovych, sentiment had changed and polarization inside Ukraine had increased.

I did NOT support Maidan, but my opinions on this matter are irrelevant today. Sadly the town hall occupations, fighting and secession in parts of Donbas that followed, Russia’s aid and ultimate control of the rebellion there, along with the peaceful vote in referendum of Crimeans for secession and joining Russia … all only hardened lines further, strengthening Ukie nationalism in the rest of the country.

The final blow was Putin’s invasion and failed attempt to seize Kiev. The disastrous initial failure of Putin’s invasion, the increased confidence and determination of the Ukraine government and Ukrainian nationalism, and of course crucial and increasing financial and military aid from the West, has brought us to this point.

I”m sure I’m not writing anything you don’t already know. Any differences we may still have I expect are probably not essential.

In my view traditional Russian nationalism and its old fashioned “imperial” political culture, its worship, desire and need for a strong leader leading a strong central state apparatus … put the sprawling Russian state on a collision course with burgeoning Ukrainian nationalism. Of course this is not at all the same thing as Western-style “liberal” or “neo-con” imperialism, but it has shown itself to be plenty vicious toward Ukrainian aspirations. The ultimate result of this tragic war is — in my opinion — still unknowable.

Ukraine, Losing In Donbass...

 

[Kruska]

We don't know true figures about the loses, every side proposes their figures but hardly they can be trusted. What can be said almost for sure is that the loses are high for the both sides.

Correct

But if say 100 000 lost servicemen is quite bearable figure for Russia, the same number for Ukraine is significant social and political factor.

Correct - according to the EU president loudmouth = Ukraine dead (not losses) are around 20,000 civilians and 100,000+ UAF

Popularity (if this word is correct in this case) of Prigozhyn is based on his activity on Internet platforms and his ability to create a structure that really brings viable results. Virtually the only one in the Russian army structure. But I wouldn't say that he gets too much attention in Ukraine.

Prigozhyn is not a military person - he has no military valid training not to mention tactical knowledge acquired in a Military Academy. His men are led by Wagner officers (former and present RF members) and members from the FSB and GUR. So whatever Wagner group does/perform is reflecting the RF. The huge difference between Wagner troops and that of the RF is that Wagner troops are dispensable - and therefore non accountable for Russia's civilian population getting unhappy about losses.

If the UAF losses are e.g. 40,000 men - it's directly affects the Ukrainian civilian population and their moral. This is what I am trying to point out to you.

 

[Kruska]

The ultimate result of this tragic war is — in my opinion — still unknowable.

None of us is a prophet but we both analyze the Russian mindset with a common agreement.

Putin and the majority of Russians are very nationalistic - more or less just as any other Eastern-European country or non-Western influenced country.
This ridiculous war is in it's core essence a conflict between two dominant world views and it's battleground unfortunately has become the Ukraine. Syria just simply doesn't carry the same significance - otherwise they would continue their dispute in that country.

Putin aka Russia has nothing to lose in this war - aside from maybe losing the war itself. And the Russian population doesn't want to lose this war either. Putin has shown that he can be ruthless if it comes to pursuing his convictions, just as those criminal Bush's in the USA, this liberal democratic world agenda by Biden, or that pathetic loudmouth criminal Trump.

Therefore it is still my believe - that Putin will not hesitate to make use of nukes in Ukraine as a last resort. He simply can't afford for himself and his "Russian conviction" to retreat back to it's pre-2014 borders. Ukraine IMO has no other choice then to bite on it's lips and surrender Donbas/Luhansk Oblast and the Crimea to him.

Who knows as to what government will be prevailing in Moscow or Kiev in e.g. 10 years time. Only then would there be a realistic chance for getting towards a peaceful coexistence. See Israel and Egypt. The military tension will certainly not abide between these two countries especially not if the Ukraine keeps pursuing it's NATO membership. Therefore I am quite certain that Putin wouldn't even accept a ceasefire along the present front-line whilst Ukraine is still eying with NATO.

This whole ridiculous war is only about USA-NATO/EU, contra Russia/CIF/SG. (And the SG also includes China). Before Putin might resort to Nukes - China as "paradox' as it sounds might even aid Russia conventionally in order to avoid nukes being used.

 

[krichton]

The war will not be won by grinding out a few meters at a time in trench warfare. The war will be won when one side convinces the other side it has lost and I am convinced it will be the Ukrainians and their allies who will convince Russia it has lost this war.

The brilliance of last year's Ukrainian counteroffensive and its importance cannot be overestimated. The Ukrainians talked all summer long about the coming offensive near Kherson so convincingly that Russia moved troops there to meet it, leaving he northeast only lightly defended and no one in the Russian military or Russian intelligence had any idea what was coming. When the offensive began in the northeast instead of near Kherson and the Russians were routed from Kharkiv, it sent shockwaves through the Russian leadership and Russian military bloggers and even some hosts on state run TV and some have still not recovered. This was step one in convincing the Russians they have lost the war.

Step two in convincing Russia it has lost the war has been Russia's failure to make any significant military gains despite massive artillery and missile bombardments for eight months and a massive loss of personnel and tanks and artillery pieces that Russian cannot replace as quickly as they are being lost, the greater unity and energy of the EU to supply Ukraine with better weapons and ammunition, the news that Russia's revenues for Jan and Feb are down nearly 50% from last year, indictments of Russian leaders for war crimes by the ICC and the creeping realization that this war is making Russia a Chinese vassal state.

Step three in convincing Russia it has lost the war will be, I hope, another brilliant Ukrainian counteroffensive. And then growing doubts about Russia's ability to win this war and the terrible cost of pursuing will begin to be given voice among Russian leaders and bloggers and Russia will slowly begin to seek the best deal it can get to retreat from Ukraine.

I have to disagree with this. You cannot convince Putin he has no chance of winning because if he decides to pull troops out of Ukraine at some point, he's likely going to find himself falling out of a 10th story window. A man who hasn't nothing to lose will not surrender. At some point he'll start conscripting and drafting russians by the millions if need be, and have them fight with shovels. What can happen is this. The people around Putin can kill Putin in order to end the war. This is the only scenario I can envision. The question is, how likely is it?

 

[krichton]

None of us is a prophet but we both analyze the Russian mindset with a common agreement.

Putin and the majority of Russians are very nationalistic - more or less just as any other Eastern-European country or non-Western influenced country.
This ridiculous war is in it's core essence a conflict between two dominant world views and it's battleground unfortunately has become the Ukraine. Syria just simply doesn't carry the same significance - otherwise they would continue their dispute in that country.

Putin aka Russia has nothing to lose in this war - aside from maybe losing the war itself. And the Russian population doesn't want to lose this war either. Putin has shown that he can be ruthless if it comes to pursuing his convictions, just as those criminal Bush's in the USA, this liberal democratic world agenda by Biden, or that pathetic loudmouth criminal Trump.

Therefore it is still my believe - that Putin will not hesitate to make use of nukes in Ukraine as a last resort. He simply can't afford for himself and his "Russian conviction" to retreat back to it's pre-2014 borders. Ukraine IMO has no other choice then to bite on it's lips and surrender Donbas/Luhansk Oblast and the Crimea to him.

Who knows as to what government will be prevailing in Moscow or Kiev in e.g. 10 years time. Only then would there be a realistic chance for getting towards a peaceful coexistence. See Israel and Egypt. The military tension will certainly not abide between these two countries especially not if the Ukraine keeps pursuing it's NATO membership. Therefore I am quite certain that Putin wouldn't even accept a ceasefire along the present front-line whilst Ukraine is still eying with NATO.

This whole ridiculous war is only about USA-NATO/EU, contra Russia/CIF/SG. (And the SG also includes China). Before Putin might resort to Nukes - China as "paradox' as it sounds might even aid Russia conventionally in order to avoid nukes being used.

What exactly will that accomplish? He wants to occupy Ukraine and make it apart of Russia again. Not only is nuking the entire country counter to those goals, but what happens after that will more or less bring an end to Russia, and I'm not even talking about a nuclear war with NATO.

 

[BackAgain]

Thread headline didn’t age well. AT. ALL.

In fact, gets worse and worse every day.

 

[luiza]

Thread headline didn’t age well. AT. ALL.

In fact, gets worse and worse every day.

100% incorrect.
But as you have no idea of the ruling position and no inkling of the strategies being used, it is best to let you continue dreaming.

Bit like the Killer shots and those in denial .
Time will reveal all .

 

[Kruska]

What exactly will that accomplish? He wants to occupy Ukraine and make it apart of Russia again. Not only is nuking the entire country counter to those goals, but what happens after that will more or less bring an end to Russia, and I'm not even talking about a nuclear war with NATO.

Putin IMO did not intend to occupy Ukraine - but to attack, intimidate and implement a Russia friendly government. It is of utmost economic and political importance for the Ukraine to be Russia friendly or controlled. The EU will automatically implement Western democratic standards - which in most non Western countries doesn't work out due to to a different culture and society aspects. The EU does not invest into a country that does not behold certain securities towards an investment, as such NATO always follows.

And NATO off course poses a national security risk for Russia additionally to the EU trying to get their hands onto Russia, Georgia, Moldavia, etc. in the event of the Ukraine being an EU and NATO member.

In 40-60 years maybe, Russia's society is more agreeable and able to accept Western democracy with all its negative side-effects. Or countries such as Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. will decide upon a Ukraine government being under Russian control, that Western democracy is not suitable for them. We will have to wait and see.

As for nuclear if at all - I rather tend towards the "China input" - I don't believe that nukes will be flying all over the place - certainly not amongst Russia and NATO. 3-5 strikes onto Kiev and the let's call it targets in Polish-Ukraine. It wouldn't make sense for Putin to use nukes in Donbas/Luhansk-Oblast and Crimea.

 

[JohnDB]

Russia has been seen sending decades old tanks to the front lines....as if they could work on this modern battlefront.

They can't.

However....there's another issue that's causing this to happen.

Russia has been using a LOT of artillery....something to the tune of 10K rounds per month.

Their howitzers are wearing out.


So the old tanks also fire the same 152mm rounds....and that's what they are using them for.

Artillery fire is a game of shoot and scoot....because there will be incoming from your firing location if you don't.

 

[para bellum]

Russia has been seen sending decades old tanks to the front lines....as if they could work on this modern battlefront.

They can't.

However....there's another issue that's causing this to happen.

Russia has been using a LOT of artillery....something to the tune of 10K rounds per month.

Their howitzers are wearing out.


So the old tanks also fire the same 152mm rounds....and that's what they are using them for.

Artillery fire is a game of shoot and scoot....because there will be incoming from your firing location if you don't.

Russian tanks mostly use 125mm shells (T-62 is 115mm and T-55 is 100mm) . Their artillery is 122mm and 152mm.

Barrel life is an issue for both sides. We go by "full-charge equivalents", meaning if most of the rounds are less than max range, you are good for more rounds. Spec is 2000 full-charge rounds and it's time for a new tube.

The M777's have had several tube replacements already, so have the PzH2000's.

Last number I heard on usage was 6,000/day for Russia and 1,500/day for the AFU on the artillery. The peak for Russia was last summer in the SDonetsk/Lysychansk battle, 50-60K/day.

60K/2000 equals 30 barrels/day consumption. That's how many artillery units you would have rotate in and out every day to maintain that rate of fire.

 

[BackAgain]

100% incorrect.
But as you have no idea of the ruling position and no inkling of the strategies being used, it is best to let you continue dreaming.

Bit like the Killer shots and those in denial .
Time will reveal all .

I’m 100% correct. The thread headline of about March 4 said it was over. The Russians had some. Here it is, March 29 and ll and behold, t ain’t over and the Russians haven’t won.

 

[badger2]

Caught between two cauldrons, the nazi machine is now feeding it "volunteers."

 

[badger2]

Ukronazis have a tube shortage regardless of whether Bulgaria sends shells.

 

[ESay]

If the UAF losses are e.g. 40,000 men - it's directly affects the Ukrainian civilian population and their moral. This is what I am trying to point out to you

I already know that without your pointing out. That is why I consider freezing this war to be the best strategy. Despite some silly bravado claims of Ukrainian officials.

 

[badger2]

Aside from the numbers, there is a quality reduction. New "volunteers" being fed into the double cauldron are not trained and seasoned. The ones that were are now dead or injured and out of the game.

Nazis can't back down from a spring offensive. Their American sponsors will make sure of that.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It's almost over for Zelensky The Corrupt Comedian turned President........ there is no ammunition left for the Ukranian forces, among many other things...it's bad.

Bakhmud is gone....but....really.... not only Bakhmud, many parts of Ukraine are too....If Zelensky cares about his country and his people, he should tell his soldiers to surrender and save their lives... he should talk PEACE with Russia ....that is of course if he cares.....but does he?

The same goes to NATO and idiotic Biden.

His people don't want to surrender. Unlike the American right wing and unlike you, They don't love Putin and don't wish that they lived in putin's country.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Putin aka Russia has nothing to lose in this war - aside from maybe losing the war itself.

Right, because the genocidal maniac doesn't consider hundreds of thousands of dead Russians to be an actual loss.