Ban or Censor Video Games, Not Guns?

[Ravi]

Why? Because you say so? Offer some proof that whatever caused people to shoot people in say any era pre 1970 is still a factor and I will consider your premise. Absent that, you are just guessing to make the data fit your preformed conclusion. Which I find odd coming from you based on are other interactions in this forum.

I provided the answer above, which you either did not understand, or ignored.

You provided nothing. And no reason to resort to claiming I don't understand what you are saying. I have shown you nothing but respect and ask for the same in return.

Let's say I have 3 water jugs and I use two of them to keep the third full at all times. Let's name them A, B, and C.

Now let's assume that I use A five times as often as I use B to fill C. In other words I use B every sixth time.

Now let's assume that you come along and observe for awhile and decide that hey A is responsible for C being full.

Now let's further assume that at some point I buy a new jug, we'll call it D, and I start using it 50% of the time to fill C. Now C is still getting filled, it's no more or no less filled than it was before I bought D, but it only stands to reason that my usage of A had to go down if C didn't rise. Correct or not?

No, YOU are responsible for C being full.

 

[catzmeow]

Take my scenario of water. Water purification really came online in this country at about the same time as video games hit the market. So maybe video games took the place of contaminated water in causing mental instability that leads to shootings.

You certainly don't have the data to prove that isn't a possibility.

If you don't have data that shows a link, you can't prove correlation or causality. The thread is based upon an assumption of a link between games and increased mass murder. The data on mass murder does not support this assumption, (i.e., mass murders have not increased), so the assumption cannot be supported and is rendered impotent for the purposes of discussion.

Foxfyre should feel intellectual responsibility for proving her affirmative claims, which she has not done. And, I am not required to prove a negative, merely to show that her positive assertions are not supported by data.

Personally, I think there is some merit to charge that video games are unhealthy for kids who are fucked up to begin with. The same as guns are unhealthy for those kids.

The argument, established by foxfyre, in the initial thread, is that there has been an escalation of mass murder, and that this escalation was caused by exposure to violent video games.

There hasn't been an escalation of mass murder. Thus, her claim is moot.

 

[JustTheFacts]

This "debate" reminds me of other debates, namely the ones that claim a causation between gay marriage and the destruction of heterosexual marriage.

This directly illustrates my America is done thread.

Americans have devolved into "That doesn't fit with my preconceived notions and I'm not changing my mind" instead of actual give and take debate.

Abraham Lincoln would shoot himself in the head if he were around to see the level of discourse in this country.

 

[catzmeow]

Don't look now Catz, but I have made no claims of any kind on this subject. All I have done is report my own observations and what the studies are reporting and ask the question. If you think opinion sharing here is pointless and based on self-delusion you are as entitled to your opinion as anybody else. But it does beg the question of why you would enter a thread on a topic you thought pointless and delusional.

The studies do not support a link between violent video game consumption and mass murder. And, I entered the thread to correct your mistaken assumption in post 1.

 

[Foxfyre]

Here is an interesting piece in WAPO citing those who argue that violent video games provoke violent thoughts etc. in players and those who argue that this has not been confirmed. Both make credible arguments.

I am not going to excerpt any of it as I think you have to read the whole thing--it is fairly short--to get the whole argument presented in the piece:

The Checkup - Study links violent video games to violent thought, action

 

[catzmeow]

This "debate" reminds me of other debates, namely the ones that claim a causation between gay marriage and the destruction of heterosexual marriage.

This directly illustrates my America is done thread.

Americans have devolved into "That doesn't fit with my preconceived notions and I'm not changing my mind" instead of actual give and take debate.

Abraham Lincoln would shoot himself in the head if he were around to see the level of discourse in this country.

Opinions are worthless if they are unsupported by facts.

 

[catzmeow]

Here is an interesting piece in WAPO citing those who argue that violent video games provoke violent thoughts etc. in players and those who argue that this has not been confirmed. Both make credible arguments.

I am not going to excerpt any of it as I think you have to read the whole thing--it is fairly short--to get the whole argument presented in the piece:

The Checkup - Study links violent video games to violent thought, action

That's not the link you claim existed in the OP. Violent thoughts =/= mass murder.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Take my scenario of water. Water purification really came online in this country at about the same time as video games hit the market. So maybe video games took the place of contaminated water in causing mental instability that leads to shootings.

You certainly don't have the data to prove that isn't a possibility.

If you don't have data that shows a link, you can't prove correlation or causality. The thread is based upon an assumption of a link between games and increased mass murder. The data on mass murder does not support this assumption, (i.e., mass murders have not increased), so the assumption cannot be supported and is rendered impotent for the purposes of discussion.

Foxfyre should feel intellectual responsibility for proving her affirmative claims, which she has not done. And, I am not required to prove a negative, merely to show that her positive assertions are not supported by data.

Personally, I think there is some merit to charge that video games are unhealthy for kids who are fucked up to begin with. The same as guns are unhealthy for those kids.

The argument, established by foxfyre, in the initial thread, is that there has been an escalation of mass murder, and that this escalation was caused by exposure to violent video games.

There hasn't been an escalation of mass murder. Thus, her claim is moot.

The OP is clearly asking for OPINIONS on whether there is correlation or not, I think it's pretty obvious that she herself thinks there is, but she hasn't claimed it as a fact.

As for an escalation of mass murder, I think we can safely say that isn't true based on ONE person. Genghis Kahn, certainly he didn't play video games as a child, he was just an asshole.

But that is IRRELEVANT to whether video games can cause kids to turn into killers.

 

[Ravi]

This "debate" reminds me of other debates, namely the ones that claim a causation between gay marriage and the destruction of heterosexual marriage.

This directly illustrates my America is done thread.

Americans have devolved into "That doesn't fit with my preconceived notions and I'm not changing my mind" instead of actual give and take debate.

Abraham Lincoln would shoot himself in the head if he were around to see the level of discourse in this country.

There is no doubt in my mind that in Lincoln's time logical fallacies were met with derision. Just like they are today.

 

[JustTheFacts]

This "debate" reminds me of other debates, namely the ones that claim a causation between gay marriage and the destruction of heterosexual marriage.

This directly illustrates my America is done thread.

Americans have devolved into "That doesn't fit with my preconceived notions and I'm not changing my mind" instead of actual give and take debate.

Abraham Lincoln would shoot himself in the head if he were around to see the level of discourse in this country.

Opinions are worthless if they are unsupported by facts.

Glad you acknowledge that. Now please post some facts that show that video games don't lead to real life violence.

 

[catzmeow]

You certainly don't have the data to prove that isn't a possibility.

I am not the person in this thread who made a clear, affirmative claim of harm. Read the OP.

The OP is the one who made an affirmative claim and is required to substantiate it with evidence. I've shown that the affirmative claim (escalating mass murder) did not occur (mass murder statistics are flat), thus rendering the affirmative claim moot.

 

[catzmeow]

Glad you acknowledge that. Now please post some facts that show that video games don't lead to real life violence.

Done.

Violence in the U.S. has decreased or remained flat since the introduction of violent video games.

That is all the data that is required.

 

[JustTheFacts]

This "debate" reminds me of other debates, namely the ones that claim a causation between gay marriage and the destruction of heterosexual marriage.

This directly illustrates my America is done thread.

Americans have devolved into "That doesn't fit with my preconceived notions and I'm not changing my mind" instead of actual give and take debate.

Abraham Lincoln would shoot himself in the head if he were around to see the level of discourse in this country.

There is no doubt in my mind that in Lincoln's time logical fallacies were met with derision. Just like they are today.

No doubt, but I don't think the debaters of the time would accuse their opponents of doing exactly what they themselves do all the while with a smirk on their faces.

And that is all to prevalent today.

 

[Koios]

This "debate" reminds me of other debates, namely the ones that claim a causation between gay marriage and the destruction of heterosexual marriage.

This directly illustrates my America is done thread.

Americans have devolved into "That doesn't fit with my preconceived notions and I'm not changing my mind" instead of actual give and take debate.

Abraham Lincoln would shoot himself in the head if he were around to see the level of discourse in this country.

Opinions are worthless if they are unsupported by facts.

Exactly!!! For example, this fact: we do, nearly, all agree that letting everyone have nukes is not a good idea nor protected in the 2A. Okie doke.

So if reasonable limits on types of "arms" is cool, why not survival / assault weapons on the ixne list?

Back to you ...

 

[catzmeow]

Exactly!!! For example, this fact: we do, nearly, all agree that letting everyone have nukes is not a good idea nor protected in the 2A. Okie doke.

So if reasonable limits on types of "arms" is cool, why not survival / assault weapons on the ixne list?

Back to you ...

Wrong thread.

 

[Ravi]

Here is an interesting piece in WAPO citing those who argue that violent video games provoke violent thoughts etc. in players and those who argue that this has not been confirmed. Both make credible arguments.

I am not going to excerpt any of it as I think you have to read the whole thing--it is fairly short--to get the whole argument presented in the piece:

The Checkup - Study links violent video games to violent thought, action

He's also been found to be a bad researcher with an agenda.

Proponents against the video game violence and aggression effect state that Dr. Anderson's research has been criticized at times for overstating his results and failing to adequately acknowledge alternate views or limitations of the data on media violence. A number of scholars have expressed the concern that his statements of causal certainty regarding video game violence effects are not well supported by the existing data.[3][4] Anderson also had ties to the former National Institute on Media and the Family (NIMF), which Jerald Block, a psychiatrist at the Oregon Health Science University, likened to a lobbying group,[5] and some of his studies have been funded by NIMF.[6] In Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association, testimonies were provided criticizing Anderson's studies, noting that they "have been rejected by every court to consider them", "do not prove that violent video games cause minors to act aggressively", and "suffer from significant, admitted flaws in methodology".[7]

wikipedia

 

[JustTheFacts]

Here is an interesting piece in WAPO citing those who argue that violent video games provoke violent thoughts etc. in players and those who argue that this has not been confirmed. Both make credible arguments.

I am not going to excerpt any of it as I think you have to read the whole thing--it is fairly short--to get the whole argument presented in the piece:

The Checkup - Study links violent video games to violent thought, action

He's also been found to be a bad researcher with an agenda.

Proponents against the video game violence and aggression effect state that Dr. Anderson's research has been criticized at times for overstating his results and failing to adequately acknowledge alternate views or limitations of the data on media violence. A number of scholars have expressed the concern that his statements of causal certainty regarding video game violence effects are not well supported by the existing data.[3][4] Anderson also had ties to the former National Institute on Media and the Family (NIMF), which Jerald Block, a psychiatrist at the Oregon Health Science University, likened to a lobbying group,[5] and some of his studies have been funded by NIMF.[6] In Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association, testimonies were provided criticizing Anderson's studies, noting that they "have been rejected by every court to consider them", "do not prove that violent video games cause minors to act aggressively", and "suffer from significant, admitted flaws in methodology".[7]

wikipedia

Same question I asked Catz, maybe you'll answer. IF there is no correlation between violent video games and becoming predisposed to violence, why does the US military use them as a training aid for that express purpose?

 

[catzmeow]

The OP is clearly asking for OPINIONS on whether there is correlation or not, I think it's pretty obvious that she herself thinks there is, but she hasn't claimed it as a fact.

As for an escalation of mass murder, I think we can safely say that isn't true based on ONE person. Genghis Kahn, certainly he didn't play video games as a child, he was just an asshole.

But that is IRRELEVANT to whether video games can cause kids to turn into killers.

No one here has the expertise to render an informed opinion on the subject, so evidence is important.

If video games caused kids to turn into killers...

Video game consumption has increased steadily since the invention of gaming consoles, going from zero percent of teens in the late 1980s to 97% of children between the ages of 12-17 in 2008. source: Over half of American adults play video games, and four out of five young adults play. Among adults, computers are the most popular gaming device, but among young adults gaming consoles are preferred. Virtual worlds only draw a small crowd. | Pew Int

During the same time period (late 1980s - present), there was a strong decrease in violent crimes committed by juveniles. Source: Stats - Basic Statistics | Juvenile Justice | FRONTLINE | PBS

In other words, while game consumption by juveniles has drastically increased over the past 15 years, violent crimes committed by juveniles have fallen steadily.

If violent video games were designed to turn kids into killers, they're failing, miserably.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I like to play video games, although they are a little to sophisticated for me today. I've played some of the older Elder Scrolls games. Even the most shoot em up of shoot em up games are really games of strategy. The end is always the triumph of good over evil. Like Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings. They have a definite story line and goal. It's more like being an interactive character in a good movie than simply a game.

Let's take the Elder Scrolls. In Skyrim, l there is a very clear sense of right and wrong. You can and will kill, but if you kill innocents, you'll be hunted and locked out of the major cities and the people hate you.

Sure, Saints Row and Grand Theft Auto are completely anti-social, but they are satire for the most part. (GTA IV dropped satire for the main story)

But then the Modern Warfare series has you selflessly fighting for puppies, God, and the American way. Of course the Moscow Airport scene in COD Modern Warfare 2 is the most disturbing thing I've seen in any media.

 

[Foxfyre]

Take my scenario of water. Water purification really came online in this country at about the same time as video games hit the market. So maybe video games took the place of contaminated water in causing mental instability that leads to shootings.

You certainly don't have the data to prove that isn't a possibility.

If you don't have data that shows a link, you can't prove correlation or causality. The thread is based upon an assumption of a link between games and increased mass murder. The data on mass murder does not support this assumption, (i.e., mass murders have not increased), so the assumption cannot be supported and is rendered impotent for the purposes of discussion.

Foxfyre should feel intellectual responsibility for proving her affirmative claims, which she has not done. And, I am not required to prove a negative, merely to show that her positive assertions are not supported by data.

Personally, I think there is some merit to charge that video games are unhealthy for kids who are fucked up to begin with. The same as guns are unhealthy for those kids.

The argument, established by foxfyre, in the initial thread, is that there has been an escalation of mass murder, and that this escalation was caused by exposure to violent video games.

There hasn't been an escalation of mass murder. Thus, her claim is moot.

The OP is clearly asking for OPINIONS on whether there is correlation or not, I think it's pretty obvious that she herself thinks there is, but she hasn't claimed it as a fact.

As for an escalation of mass murder, I think we can safely say that isn't true based on ONE person. Genghis Kahn, certainly he didn't play video games as a child, he was just an asshole.

But that is IRRELEVANT to whether video games can cause kids to turn into killers.

I don't intend for it to be obvious because the truth is, I don't know.

I do know if I focus on blood and gore and violence or torture or other unpleasant thoughts, my mood is far less pleasant than if I focus on good, positive things. I refuse to watch movies that are downers any more. I want movies that elevate the human spirit, that have me on my feet cheering at the end. Why? Because I just enjoy those emotions a whole lot more.

Since there were no video games and little graphic violence in the movies or on television and none in music when I was a kid, I have no experience of how those things made me feel. But after a good Roy Rogers or Hopalong Cassidy movie we all would go out a play cowboys and robbers and shoot up the neighborhood. It was great fun.

So that is why I want to KNOW whether there is a serious negative effect on kids when they are exposed again and again and again to this stuff.