Bad Kills -- Good Kills. The Double Standard.

[Two Thumbs]

There is no such thing as green energy. If liberals actually paid any attention, at all, they would know nuclear is the best and safest source out there.

Which is why many liberals support nuclear.

Not all conservatives do, though.

As soon as you try to understand energy using the old left/right divide, you are lost. It simply is not that black/white.

That's a lie.

And a really really really bad one.

 

[flacaltenn]

Flac -

What I mean is that your information is hopelessly outdated and your thread ridiculously skewed.

I have already said that the numbers of bird deaths on windfarms are an issue,and something that energy companies need to take into consideration when evaluating wind.

However, wind farms are ranked SEVENTH on the list of bird deaths caused by mankind - and you seem to have no problem with the first six.

You're lying now and you lied when you said my information came from 1976.. The OP is CLEARLY about the hypocrisy in the Obama Admin handling of bird kills..

The SCIENCE says that eagles, raptors, hawks, and owls are territorial and can be EASILY decimated locally by wind farms.

And the monstruous SECRECY that this article uncovers explains how sensitive this topic is with the ECO-Frauds..

Does the Obama Admin send an agent to the field to secretly recover the bodies of dead raptors killed by power lines and then NOT punish and prosecute? That's the question...

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

Setting the feral cats issue to one side seems fair enough - that only leaves you to explain why you are ignoring five of the top six causes of bird death, whilst going haywire over the seventh.

Especially given wind farms are the only industry of those listed to have made siginficant progress to prevent birdstrikes.

My word....what a train wreck of an OP.


Two Thmbs -

Obviously it is not a lie. I support nuclear, and I can name a dozen liberal or left wing govts who do, too. Start with France.

 

[westwall]

I think everyone agrees that it is a problem.

I think everyone (apart from the OP) also knows that a lot of work has been done on this, and that solutions are being trialled as we speak.

It's not the first time Flac's intel has come from 1976.

We have many wind farms in the Bay Area and the killing of birds was in the news years ago. Today's 'windmills' have larger props and move very slowly which has markedly reduced the number of kills. All a result of Government Regulation.

You too are not reporting the whole truth.

"The bird death issue is complicated by the fact that commercially viable wind farms must be situated in areas where the wind blows as frequently and steadily as possible. These locations tend also to be major flyways for raptors and migratory birds.

Even worse, the farms can actually lure birds to their grisly deaths. Rats, mice, and other rodents utilize turbine bases as nesting grounds, which in turn attracts birds of prey. When the birds of prey circle above their intended meal, they are sliced to death in midair by the spinning turbine blades.

The Audubon Society, a party to the lawsuit settled last year, noted among the birds deaths are between 456 and 1,129 raptors killed each year, including 75 to 116 golden eagles killed annually."


National Audubon Society | Audubon

 

[Saigon]

It's always fascinating when an OP can't muster an intelligent response to his own thread.

I'll ask again - if wind farm rank SEVENTH on the list of causes of bird death, why are you ignoring the Top Six?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Flac -

Setting the feral cats issue to one side seems fair enough - that only leaves you to explain why you are ignoring five of the top six causes of bird death, whilst going haywire over the seventh.

Especially given wind farms are the only industry of those listed to have made siginficant progress to prevent birdstrikes.

My word....what a train wreck of an OP.


Two Thmbs -

Obviously it is not a lie. I support nuclear, and I can name a dozen liberal or left wing govts who do, too. Start with France.

this is happening in the USA.

find 10 liberal, American politicians that openly support nuke power



and really, libs here are not the same as libs elsewhere.

 

[Two Thumbs]

It's always fascinating when an OP can't muster an intelligent response to his own thread.

I'll ask again - if wind farm rank SEVENTH on the list of causes of bird death, why are you ignoring the Top Six?

as has been explained, in the op, those 6 are getting fined and sued by the government.

wind is getting a free pass

 

[flacaltenn]

I think everyone agrees that it is a problem.

I think everyone (apart from the OP) also knows that a lot of work has been done on this, and that solutions are being trialled as we speak.

It's not the first time Flac's intel has come from 1976.

We have many wind farms in the Bay Area and the killing of birds was in the news years ago. Today's 'windmills' have larger props and move very slowly which has markedly reduced the number of kills. All a result of Government Regulation.

You're repeating the lies of the Altamont Pass money folks who claim to be "redesigning" those windfields to be less hazardous to LOCAL raptors..

This was Altamont a few years ago in Court..

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...amont_pass/pdfs/2-17-05-press-release-rrw.pdf


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 17, 2005
Oakland, CA – Judge Ronald Sabraw of the Alameda County Superior Court today ruled that the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) and its co-plaintiff Peter Galvin can go forward with their lawsuit against wind power companies responsible for killing tens of thousands of eagles, hawks, falcons, owls and other protected birds with wind power turbines in the Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area (Altamont) in the San Francisco Bay Area of California.

Judge Sabraw ruled that, although the enactment of Proposition 64 in November 2004 applied retroactively to bar CBD and Mr. Galvin from bringing suit on behalf of the general public, CBD and Mr. Galvin could continue to pursue their claims against the wind power companies for destroying wildlife because they, like all other Californians, have a property interest in the wildlife the wind power companies are destroying. The Judge also invited Attorney General Bill Lockyer or the Alameda County District Attorney to join the
lawsuit to pursue these claims on behalf of the general public as well.

The lawsuit was filed in state court on November 1, 2004, seeking remedies for the killing of tens of thousands of raptors in flagrant criminal violation of state and federal wildlife protection laws. Wind turbines at Altamont have killed an estimated 880 to 1,330 golden eagles, hawks, owls and other protected raptors each year for the past 20 years, in violation of numerous California Fish and Game Code provisions as well as the federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Bald Eagle and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

This is how they are lying Today...

READER?S EDITORIAL: HIDING THE SLAUGHTER | East County Magazine


At the time this was very important because the industry was moving away from the smaller turbines and installing much larger turbines. Some were up to 362Kw and had blades twice as long as the 65-100Kw turbines. It was noted that these were turbines with slower rotations per minute that had the "greater windows of time" that would fool birds with the illusion of having open flight areas between the rotating blades. This was an illusion that not only fooled the birds, but to this day continues to fool people. The newest turbines at 20 rotations appear to be slow, but their blades tips can be moving much faster than with the smaller turbines at over 200 mph.

The study found that use of monopole or tubular towers associated with more avian fatalities than did lattice or vertical-axis towers. Tubular towers did not reduce mortality over lattice towers, but rather appeared to increase mortality. It was said that it was likely due to the association of tubular towers with longer blades, slower rotations and the illusion of safety created by the "greater windows of time" between blades presented to birds. It appeared that within the ranges of turbine and tower attributes, the taller towers with the slower-moving blades, and the longer time spans with which birds have to fly through the rotor plane, increased the vulnerability of birds in the APWRA.

Mortality at the APWRA for the Four Focal Raptor Species during the study period shows nearly 2 1/2 times as many carcasses in the raw data. The number of carcasses found in searches for other species went up even more. Barn owls carcasses found went from 50 in the 1998-2003 study up to 160 for 2005 -2010 period. Prairie falcons went from 2 to 6, rock doves from 196 up to 1125; horned larks from 23 up to 59, and meadowlark carcasses collected went from 96 up to 524 bodies in the last study. Even 2 Peregrine falcon carcasses were found.
With disproportionately high increases in carcasses totals across the entire mortality list, how is it possible that the latest study could conclude that mortality at the APWRA had improved?

Exclusionary Methods and Math- Without the use of the industry's new formula and exclusionary factors built in for estimating avian mortality rates, the latest Altamont mortality figures would look completely different. One of more noticeable factors from the study was the exclusion carcasses. The report states that 347 WRRS carcasses from the 2005-2010 data along with an additional 21 golden eagle carcasses excluded from mortality estimates. This is very important because I happen to know that a large number of the carcasses picked up under the WRRS program are primarily raptors. Many carcasses from the Four Focal Raptor Species were eliminated from mortality estimates. As far as I could determine no WRRS carcasses were excluded from the 1998-2003 study. But even though wind farm personnel routinely look for carcasses under wind turbines, WRRS records and bodies found outside designated search areas are considered "incidental" are not part mortality analysis.

I've even seen NEW studies that claim that "deaths per MWattHr Generated" have gone down.. Thus manipulating statistics to make people think they've fixed any problem..
BIGGER windturbines generate MORE electricity. Putter BIGGER wind turbines in the field JUSTIFIES those deaths.

But the deaths INCREASE because bigger turbines have higher TIP speeds and that's what matters to killing birds.

YOU may be fooled by the slower turning of humungeous sized blades.. But the 200 mile per hour blade tips KILLS more birds --- more efficiently...

 

[Papageorgio]

I think everyone agrees that it is a problem.

I think everyone (apart from the OP) also knows that a lot of work has been done on this, and that solutions are being trialled as we speak.

It's not the first time Flac's intel has come from 1976.

We have many wind farms in the Bay Area and the killing of birds was in the news years ago. Today's 'windmills' have larger props and move very slowly which has markedly reduced the number of kills. All a result of Government Regulation.

And still kill birds that other companies are prosecuted for. Why is there a double standard?

 

[flacaltenn]

It's always fascinating when an OP can't muster an intelligent response to his own thread.

I'll ask again - if wind farm rank SEVENTH on the list of causes of bird death, why are you ignoring the Top Six?

I told you in a previous post -- you ignored it. Because all you want to do is to make FALSE accusations about ME and ignore any evidence or facts.. Whatever kind of journalist you think you are -- you are neither a journalist or an environmentalist... You ARE a fraud..

1) This thread is about the hypocrisy of the CURRENT ADMIN in handling of bird deaths amongst the various energy industries. CLEAR evidence to that was presented in the OP.. You do not get to redefine the topic...

2) The argument is NOT ABOUT the gross number of bird deaths by human causes. The argument is about the TYPE of birds whose lives and habitat are being snuffed out. Thus -feral cats are irrelevent when talking about eagles, hawks, owls, and other raptors.

3) The kill rate at ANY sizable wind farm is sufficient to WIPE OUT and remove habitat from territorial birds such as raptors for a wide area. THese birds do not migrate and stake out land.

You ignore that explanation again -- and YOU go on ignorre... I expect you to QUOTE this post (not delete my comments) and respond.. That's how a message convo works see???

 

[mamooth]

as has been explained, in the op, those 6 are getting fined and sued by the government.

No, as has been _claimed_, with no support to back it up.

Remember, you're talking to the reason-based community. You can't just pull crap out of your ass and expect it to be believed

Can you show us an office building owner prosecuted for a bird hitting the window?

Can you show us a vehicle prosecuted for hitting a bird?

No?

So, the "double standard" appears to be yet another conservative fabrication, something they made up so they could hate liberals. Some of them are hardcore hate-addicts, jonesin' for their regular hate-fix, and they don't really care how low they have to go to get it.

 

[Two Thumbs]

as has been explained, in the op, those 6 are getting fined and sued by the government.

No, as has been _claimed_, with no support to back it up.

Remember, you're talking to the reason-based community. You can't just pull crap out of your ass and expect it to be believed

Can you show us an office building owner prosecuted for a bird hitting the window?

Can you show us a vehicle prosecuted for hitting a bird?

No?

So, the "double standard" appears to be yet another conservative fabrication, something they made up so they could hate liberals. Some of them are hardcore hate-addicts, jonesin' for their regular hate-fix, and they don't really care how low they have to go to get it.

everyone please take a note to remind yourselves that the above poster is a lying hypocritical degenerate that's not ok with oil companies killing birds but is ok with windmills killing them b/c none of us have been pulled over for hitting a robin.

mooth, go **** yourself ya double standard cumhole

 

[mamooth]

mooth, go **** yourself ya double standard cumhole

Great guy to have on your side, denialists! You all must be so proud.

(And just think of what he'll be like after he has his first beer!)

 

[Two Thumbs]

mooth, go **** yourself ya double standard cumhole

Great guy to have on your side, denialists! You all must be so proud.

(And just think of what he'll be like after he has his first beer!)

The irony of an obama fluffer calling anyone a denialist is just super awesome

 

[FA_Q2]

as has been explained, in the op, those 6 are getting fined and sued by the government.

No, as has been _claimed_, with no support to back it up.

Remember, you're talking to the reason-based community. You can't just pull crap out of your ass and expect it to be believed

Can you show us an office building owner prosecuted for a bird hitting the window?

Can you show us a vehicle prosecuted for hitting a bird?

No?

So, the "double standard" appears to be yet another conservative fabrication, something they made up so they could hate liberals. Some of them are hardcore hate-addicts, jonesin' for their regular hate-fix, and they don't really care how low they have to go to get it.

Why ignore the fact that the oil industry is fined for this and the wind is not. You bring up cars and office buildings of which there is nothing that can be done and I do not think that those are the real problems for rare species as that is the focus flat has been talking about. No one really cares how many pigeons are killed by windows as many times the government goes out and kills them wholesale for pest control. There is a difference between them and raptors though.

 

[flacaltenn]

as has been explained, in the op, those 6 are getting fined and sued by the government.

No, as has been _claimed_, with no support to back it up.

Remember, you're talking to the reason-based community. You can't just pull crap out of your ass and expect it to be believed

Can you show us an office building owner prosecuted for a bird hitting the window?

Can you show us a vehicle prosecuted for hitting a bird?

No?

So, the "double standard" appears to be yet another conservative fabrication, something they made up so they could hate liberals. Some of them are hardcore hate-addicts, jonesin' for their regular hate-fix, and they don't really care how low they have to go to get it.

No --- this just is a case of selective stupidity on your part in avoiding the reading of the OP.. I thought having it in the HuffPo would impress you.. Apparently -- you can't see the
Double Standard -- because you can't read...

From another part of the article...

Wind Farm Bird Deaths Stir Concerns In The U.S.

The Obama administration has refused to accept that cost when the fossil-fuel industry is to blame. The BP oil company was fined $100 million for killing and harming migratory birds during the 2010 Gulf oil spill. And PacifiCorp, which operates coal plants in Wyoming, paid more than $10.5 million in 2009 for electrocuting 232 eagles along power lines and at its substations.

But PacifiCorp also operates wind farms in the state, where at least 20 eagles have been found dead in recent years, according to corporate surveys submitted to the federal government and obtained by The Associated Press. They've neither been fined nor prosecuted. A spokesman for PacifiCorp, which is a subsidiary of MidAmerican Energy Holdings Co. of Des Moines, Iowa, said that's because its turbines may not be to blame.

"What it boils down to is this: If you electrocute an eagle, that is bad, but if you chop it to pieces, that is OK," said Tim Eicher, a former U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service enforcement agent based in Cody, who helped prosecute the PacifiCorp power line case.

<<------------ THERE is the Double Standard..


Gots nothing to do with birds hitting windows.. It's a fruit to fruit comparison of the MASSIVE hypocrisy that Pseudo-Environmentalists use to justify their public policies..

 

[Papageorgio]

Not only do they kill birds, they are eye sores. Hundreds of them all along the Columbia River. Not very pretty.

 

[westwall]

as has been explained, in the op, those 6 are getting fined and sued by the government.

No, as has been _claimed_, with no support to back it up.

Remember, you're talking to the reason-based community. You can't just pull crap out of your ass and expect it to be believed

Can you show us an office building owner prosecuted for a bird hitting the window?

Can you show us a vehicle prosecuted for hitting a bird?

No?

So, the "double standard" appears to be yet another conservative fabrication, something they made up so they could hate liberals. Some of them are hardcore hate-addicts, jonesin' for their regular hate-fix, and they don't really care how low they have to go to get it.

Bullshit. Show us ONE wind company that has been fined...just one.

 

[westwall]

mooth, go **** yourself ya double standard cumhole

Great guy to have on your side, denialists! You all must be so proud.

(And just think of what he'll be like after he has his first beer!)

We love him. He's at least honest, unlike your despicable, lying, two faced, hypocritical asshole self. I'll repeat it, go **** yourself!

 

[flacaltenn]

mooth, go **** yourself ya double standard cumhole

Great guy to have on your side, denialists! You all must be so proud.

(And just think of what he'll be like after he has his first beer!)

After his THIRD beer -- he'd still be more logical and coherent and honest than you are being here..

You -- sometimes irritate folks.. Is that a new revelation for ya?