AZ passes law saying life beings pre-conception

[koshergrl]

It's laughable that vaginal ultrasound conducted to ensure accuracy is "too invasive" but the abortion itself is A-OK.

What complete crap.

Okay, next time you show up for a sore throat, take all your clothes off.

NO. They came in for an abortion. They agreed to an abortion. They are now being forced to jump through a million self-righteous hoops which congress should absolutely NOT be legislating, because the right wing is full of self-righteous shit.

If my throat was located in my uterus, it would make sense. Are you honest about anything? Ever? I imagine that catches up with a person after a while...

Here's the honest analogy:

You're going in for a colonoscopy.

To make sure you don't have complications, doc decides to take a look to determine you don't have huge hemmorhoids before skewering you.

 

[BDBoop]

Nope. Because you can tell the doctor you don't want him too. You can't say no to a transvaginal ultrasounds that is mandated by law.

 

[koshergrl]

And the doctor can say "then I'm not going to do the colonoscopy because my insurace provider states I have to do this first".

See how that works?

 

[BDBoop]

And the doctor can say "then I'm not going to do the colonoscopy because my insurace provider states I have to do this first".

See how that works?

Insurance provider.

The Government.

Insurance Provider...

The Government.

Nope. Not seeing it.

 

[koshergrl]

Nope. Because you can tell the doctor you don't want him too. You can't say no to a transvaginal ultrasounds that is mandated by law.

Sure you can.

You can get up and walk out of the office.

You can't get an abortion unless the age of the baby has been determined accurately. If you don't like that, don't get an abortion.

 

[BDBoop]

And that's the hope, isn't it. Circumvent Roe V Wade, regardless how it affects women and children.

But there's no war, right?

 

[koshergrl]

Yours is the war. You want to get those women in to kill their babies and scrape their uteruses, regardless of safety and legal issues.

In other words, you want to deny them the most advanced medical care because to give them that medical care would result in them not getting the abortions. You want illegal, unsafe abortions for women.

That's what I call "Pro-female"!

 

[BDBoop]

I am pro-woman. You are pro-zygote.

 

[Navy1960]

I wonder what would stop say a woman from say going to a more friendly state for these kinds of services? or say an enterprising person to perhaps offer transportation to and from those facilities out of state? Much like the prescription express bus was to Mexico from here, given the current climate here in Arizona am sure it would not take too long for the good folks at the Center for Arizona Policy to get a bill passed making that somehow a no no as well.

 

[BDBoop]

I wonder what would stop say a woman from say going to a more friendly state for these kinds of services? or say an enterprising person to perhaps offer transportation to and from those facilities out of state? Much like the prescription express bus was to Mexico from here, given the current climate here in Arizona am sure it would not take too long for the good folks at the Center for Arizona Policy to get a bill passed making that somehow a no no as well.

That's exactly what will happen, and I know it will happen, because that's what happened before. They're not stopping anything. Women are nothing if not resourceful.

 

[BDBoop]

Ah, validation.

Senate approves bill on ‘wrongful births’ | Arizona Capitol Times

The Arizona Senate has approved a bill that would shield doctors and others from so-called “wrongful birth” lawsuits.

Those are lawsuits that can arise if physicians don’t inform pregnant women of prenatal problems that could lead to the decision to have an abortion.

 

[Navy1960]

I wonder what would stop say a woman from say going to a more friendly state for these kinds of services? or say an enterprising person to perhaps offer transportation to and from those facilities out of state? Much like the prescription express bus was to Mexico from here, given the current climate here in Arizona am sure it would not take too long for the good folks at the Center for Arizona Policy to get a bill passed making that somehow a no no as well.

That's exactly what will happen, and I know it will happen, because that's what happened before. They're not stopping anything. Women are nothing if not resourceful.

I just wonder if it has escaped anyone's notice in our legislature how close California or Mexico is to us ? It would seem that these sorts of bills are just a huge waste of time and resources that the state does not have, becaue you can be sure that they will find themselves in a court battle over them. I suppose a big problem I have with these bills is how does a Rep. or Sen. square this when they are forced to laws off 300 DPS officers or don't have enough firefighters to fight fires in Northern Arizona, or perhaps help the growing problem with our education system here in this state as more and more teachers are laid off.

 

[Misty]

"A measure signed by Gov. Jan Brewer will bar most abortions in Arizona after 20 weeks of pregnancy, a ban supporters say protects both mothers and fetuses but one that abortion-rights advocates say is among the most restrictive in the nation.

It bans all abortions after 20 weeks except in a “medical emergency” where an abortion would prevent the mother’s death or “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.”

Seven states have similar restrictions."

Brewer signs bill banning most abortions after 20 weeks - News from The Arizona Republic

This is how an abortion is performed at 20 weeks. You heartless liberal.

"20 weeks:*

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them."

 

[BDBoop]

"A measure signed by Gov. Jan Brewer will bar most abortions in Arizona after 20 weeks of pregnancy, a ban supporters say protects both mothers and fetuses but one that abortion-rights advocates say is among the most restrictive in the nation.

It bans all abortions after 20 weeks except in a “medical emergency” where an abortion would prevent the mother’s death or “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.”

Seven states have similar restrictions."

Brewer signs bill banning most abortions after 20 weeks - News from The Arizona Republic

This is how an abortion is performed at 20 weeks. You heartless liberal.

"20 weeks:*

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them."

Teal deer.

 

[Wry Catcher]

"A measure signed by Gov. Jan Brewer will bar most abortions in Arizona after 20 weeks of pregnancy, a ban supporters say protects both mothers and fetuses but one that abortion-rights advocates say is among the most restrictive in the nation.

It bans all abortions after 20 weeks except in a “medical emergency” where an abortion would prevent the mother’s death or “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.”

Seven states have similar restrictions."

Brewer signs bill banning most abortions after 20 weeks - News from The Arizona Republic

This is how an abortion is performed at 20 weeks. You heartless liberal.

"20 weeks:*

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them."

Seems like you would want to prevent this? Why are you not advocating sex education in the schools and the free supply of contraceptives to all males and females at sexual maturity?

 

[Jarhead]

Pro-choice is the allowance of choice and individual liberty. Isn't that what this country is all about? How can you want to limit choice in the name of your specific religion and still call yourself an american? It's so hypocritical and preposterous. I understand you want to do something good, and I don't like abortion either, and I'm an atheist, but you have to give people that CHOICE. You do not get to decide for other people because you believe your religion is true. Have some respect for other people's beliefs. A bunch of cells is not a human. It is potential, but not a feeling, breathing human. I don't know at what point it is acceptable to terminate that potential, but there is a point, and it is past conception, and before the nervous system is fully formed, in my opinion. (late-term abortions should not be allowed in my opinion, except under extreme cicrumstances)

I personally do not believe in abortion...but I respect those that feel it is invasive to their choices to ban it, so my tolerance for the beliefs of others has me supporting the pro choice side.

However....the question is not really about choice. It is, and has always been, whether or not abortion is murder...whuich stems from "when does life begin."

now...you say "a bunch of cells" is not a human life.....I agree.

However...if that "bunch of cells" is dependant upon a human being to grow...via the umbilical chord/placenta....then maybe it is not just a bunch of cells?

Look at it this way.....what other than a human being requires human antibodies and human blood cells to survive?

So you see, it is not just the religious right that feel that way...many form a science background see a fetus as a human being...from a scientific standpoint.

Unless, of course, you can cite what other than a lviing human requires human antibodies to survive....

All I know, is that a newly conceived egg does not feel pain, therefore, without suffering, the death of that egg can not be said to be immoral. Conscious suffering is what largely defines immorality to me. It is to inflict suffering unnecessarily on a being that does not choose it or does not have the ability to defend against it (e.g., factory farmed animals... why don't we talk about their suffering? Go vegan EARTHLINGS - Make the Connection. | Nation Earth )

I do see a sufficiently formed fetus as a human. I just don't know at what point a human is a human, and hence the crux of the problem. Yet I will universally deny the theist position that life starts at conception, and based on that theism, legislate against it. That is immoral, because you now forcing people to do what they do not want to, when it is their body.

I understand what you are saying...

But lack of pain is not what should be used to define whether or not it should have its life taken away from it.

If one is a quadrapalegic and mentally retarded where he/she can not read, speak, write, or really do anything but be a burden on the family....should the family have the right to euthenize that person in their sleep with a painless procedure?

To me, life begins when death can take place.

And like it or not...an abortion results in the death of the fetus.

 

[koshergrl]

Why not force the abortion clinics to determine the age of the baby with the highest degree of accuracy possible?

By refusing to allow this to happen, you are saying you're okay with substandard services.

Which of course, leads to more botched abortions.

But that's okay with progressives, because the main objective has never been the safety of the female. The #1 priority has ALWAYS been to kill the baby. Regardless of the consequences.

 

[BDBoop]

You want to talk botched abortions? *hardly ever happen, by the way* - look at life as a female, pre-the bill. Pre-Roe v Wade.

 

[Jarhead]

Why not force the abortion clinics to determine the age of the baby with the highest degree of accuracy possible?

By refusing to allow this to happen, you are saying you're okay with substandard services.

Which of course, leads to more botched abortions.

But that's okay with progressives, because the main objective has never been the safety of the female. The #1 priority has ALWAYS been to kill the baby. Regardless of the consequences.

that does not help the debate one iota.

 

[Jarhead]

You want to talk botched abortions? *hardly ever happen, by the way* - look at life as a female, pre-the bill. Pre-Roe v Wade.

if a single mother gave birth to a severly physically handicapped and mentally retarded child where the prognosis is likely death by the age of 5......

Should she have the right to euthenize (sp?) the child?