Zone1 Atheist Hitchens admits defeat after debating the theist John Lennox

[Sherlock Holmes]

 

[rightwinger]

Did God show up?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Did God show up?

No, no need, he already knows he exists.

 

[rightwinger]

No, no need, he already knows he exists.

Then how did Lennox prove he exists?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Then how did Lennox prove he exists?

By way of reasoned argument.

 

[rightwinger]

By way of reasoned argument.

Didn’t seem that way in the video

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Didn’t seem that way in the video

Hitchens thought so.

 

[alang1216]

Hitchens thought so.

I don't think so, it sounded like there was an audience that voted. Neither side could have 'won' since there is no proof for God's existence or non-existence.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't think so, it sounded like there was an audience that voted. Neither side could have 'won' since there is no proof for God's existence or non-existence.

How did you establish there's no proof? that claim means that everything that exists can in no way demonstrate God's existence, that a sweeping and unscientific claim to make.

 

[alang1216]

How did you establish there's no proof? that claim means that everything that exists can in no way demonstrate God's existence, that a sweeping and unscientific claim to make.

Evidence is not proof. Look it up.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Evidence is not proof. Look it up.

Can that be proven?

 

[ding]

Evidence is not proof. Look it up.

I have. Proof requires evidence, but not all evidence constitutes proof. Proof is a fact that demonstrates something to be real or true. Evidence is information that might lead one to believe something to be real or true.

For example the CMB is evidence of a massive paired particle production chain event that proves the universe was created from matter that was not pre-existing.

Another example would be the evidence of the laws that describe the evolution of space and time (conservation, relativity and quantum mechanics) also describing the creation of the universe is proof that the laws of nature existed before space and time.

 

[ding]

no proof for God's existence or non-existence.

Is there evidence for God's existence?

Is there evidence for God's non-existence?

 

[alang1216]

I have. Proof requires evidence, but not all evidence constitutes proof. Proof is a fact that demonstrates something to be real or true. Evidence is information that might lead one to believe something to be real or true.

You're spot on that evidence is information that might lead one to believe something to be real or true. The key word there is believe which is different than proof and all that us mere mortals ever get. How many juries were convinced someone was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt only to find they were wrong?

For example the CMB is evidence of a massive paired particle production chain event that proves the universe was created from matter that was not pre-existing.

You may believe that but one is not proof of the other. The BB may have been an event we can't comprehend, like a spacetime/energy/matter phase change. At least I don't consider it proof.

Another example would be the evidence of the laws that describe the evolution of space and time (conservation, relativity and quantum mechanics) also describing the creation of the universe is proof that the laws of nature existed before space and time.

Again, you may be correct but there may be laws and forces we don't yet know about.

 

[alang1216]

Is there evidence for God's existence?

Plenty.

Is there evidence for God's non-existence?

I don't know what that would look like. Is there evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's non-existence?

 

[ding]

You may believe that but one is not proof of the other. The BB may have been an event we can't comprehend, like a spacetime/energy/matter phase change.

What's your evidence for that?

 

[ding]

At least I don't consider it proof.

How can you say that if you have no evidence to counter it? Do you have some other way the CMB could have been produced? Where is your evidence for your beliefs?

 

[ding]

Again, you may be correct but there may be laws and forces we don't yet know about.

Do you have any evidence for the laws of nature not existing before space and time? Because I do. I just presented it, right?

 

[ding]

Plenty.


I don't know what that would look like. Is there evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's non-existence?

You'd have to tell me what the argument for the FSM is before I could answer that question. But what I can tell you is that you routinely dismiss the evidence for the existence of a Creator without having evidence to do so.

 

[alang1216]

What's your evidence for that?

If you see a closed door, you don't know what, if anything, is inside. You can guess, you can theorize, but you can't know. There are many theories about what predated the BB but little evidence.

The question of what existed before the Big Bang is one of the most profound and challenging in cosmology and philosophy. Here are some perspectives on the topic:

1. Singularity Hypothesis​

• Explanation: According to this idea, the universe was initially in an extremely hot, dense state called a singularity, where the laws of physics as we know them break down. Time and space as we understand them began with the Big Bang, so asking what happened "before" may not be meaningful in the conventional sense.

2. Quantum Fluctuations​

• Explanation: Some theories suggest that the universe could have emerged from a quantum vacuum fluctuation. In quantum mechanics, even "empty" space can experience fluctuations, potentially giving rise to the Big Bang.

3. Multiverse Theory​

• Explanation: One hypothesis posits that our universe is just one of many in a larger multiverse. In this scenario, the Big Bang might be just one event in an infinite series of universes being born, with no definitive "before" because time might not be linear across different universes.

4. Cyclic or Oscillating Universe​

• Explanation: Some theories propose that the universe goes through endless cycles of Big Bangs and Big Crunches (where the universe collapses back into a singularity and then explodes again). In this view, our Big Bang might be just the latest in a series of such events, with no true beginning or end.

5. Philosophical and Theological Views​

• Explanation: Some perspectives argue that the concept of "before the Big Bang" might be beyond human comprehension, requiring a different framework of understanding, potentially involving metaphysical or theological explanations. For instance, some religious interpretations suggest that a divine entity could exist outside of time and space, initiating the Big Bang.

6. Unknowns and Limits of Science​

• Explanation: It's also possible that current scientific tools and theories are insufficient to fully explain what existed before the Big Bang, and it might remain one of the great mysteries of the universe.

Summary:​

The question of what existed before the Big Bang touches on the boundaries of science and philosophy. Theories range from scientific models like quantum fluctuations and multiverse concepts to more speculative or philosophical ideas. However, there is no definitive answer, and it remains an area of active inquiry and debate.