At NYU, Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. So They Fired The Professor.

[Woodznutz]

Do you know what the Epsilon/Delta proof is? ... that's the start of college level mathematics ... everything that comes before is arithmetic, adding and multiplying, we expect 9-year-olds to have master these operators ... the third operator is differentiation ... do nurses need to know what a function's derivative is? ...

Maybe not, but to say differentiation is too difficult for medical professionals ... then we'll have our lives in the hands of just anyone ...

Some colleges graduate folks without making them pass a college math class ... maybe we don't need Englishing classes either ... spelting is overratted ...

Calculators, computer programs, and AI, are dumbing down math learning. It will get even better/worse (take yer pick).

 

[Mac-7]

This story reminds me of my friend Cathy, who was born and raised in China and moved to the U.S. 10 years ago, and is now a U.S. citizen (not a dual citizen, as China does not allow that. She needs a Visa to return home and see her family)

Cathy is clueless about most things, and I mean clueless. Driving, still can't drive worth a damn. Anything mechanical, forget it. I had to show her how to replace the light bulbs in her vanity. But there is a local private college in town, an engineering school, and she took a couple chemistry classes, including the highest organic chemistry class they offer. Her final grade was a 96, 98, one of those, which upset her. She told me she stayed after class arguing with the professor that she was right on those he said she missed, and she should have gotten a 100%.

That is what China is sending to this country. Book smart like you wouldn't believe, but really, really inept and clueless about the life skills we Americans have, the ability to fix and repair things or operate outside of some rigid boundaries that the state provides.

After recently walking around the campus of Northwestern last week, I was struck at how many Asian students I saw, and most not speaking English. I have my doubts that those students from Asian countries were any of those who signed the petition.

If the chinese are mechanically inept compared to American kids then they must be totally hopeless because our kids dont do well in that area either

 

[San Souci]

An online petition by a group of students who could not pass a class by 84 year old Maitland Jones Jr., who literally wrote the book on Organic Chemistry, led to his contract with the school being terminated. The truth is (probably) that these were poor students, and their $75,000 a year does not guarantee them a chance to be an M.D.. He got poor reviews from students because his class is HARD, as organic chemistry can be. It weeds out imposters from those who want a medical career. I bet Chinese students could pass his class.



In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolest professors.

But last spring, as the campus emerged from pandemic restrictions, 82 of his 350 students signed a petition against him.

Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test scores.
The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.

“The deans are obviously going for some bottom line, and they want happy students who are saying great things about the university so more people apply and the U.S. News rankings keep going higher,” said Paramjit Arora, a chemistry professor who has worked closely with Dr. Jones.

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

Students could choose between two sections, one focused on problem solving, the other on traditional lectures. Students in both sections shared problems on a GroupMe chat and began venting about the class. Those texts kick-started the petition, submitted in May.

“We are very concerned about our scores, and find that they are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class,” the petition said.

The students criticized Dr. Jones’s decision to reduce the number of midterm exams from three to two, flattening their chances to compensate for low grades. They said that he had tried to conceal course averages, did not offer extra credit and removed Zoom access to his lectures, even though some students had Covid. And, they said, he had a “condescending and demanding” tone.

“We urge you to realize,” the petition said, “that a class with such a high percentage of withdrawals and low grades has failed to make students’ learning and well-being a priority and reflects poorly on the chemistry department as well as the institution as a whole.”

Dr. Jones said in an interview that he reduced the number of exams because the university scheduled the first test date after six classes, which was too soon.

On the accusation that he concealed course averages, Dr. Jones said that they were impossible to provide because 25 percent of the grade relied on lab scores and a final lab test, but that students were otherwise aware of their grades.

Professors in the chemistry department have pushed back. In a letter to Dr. Gabadadze and other deans, they wrote that they worried about setting “a precedent, completely lacking in due process, that could undermine faculty freedoms and correspondingly enfeeble proven pedagogic practices.”

Nathaniel J. Traaseth, one of about 20 chemistry professors, mostly tenured, who signed the letter, said the university’s actions may deter rigorous instruction, especially given the growing tendency of students to file petitions.

“Now the faculty who are not tenured are looking at this case and thinking, ‘Wow, what if this happens to me and they don’t renew my contract?’” he said.

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

Why not just admit that the "Students" are stupid? They should be flippin' Burgers.

 

[Unkotare]

This story reminds me of my friend Cathy, who was born and raised in China and moved to the U.S. 10 years ago, and is now a U.S. citizen (not a dual citizen, as China does not allow that. She needs a Visa to return home and see her family)

Cathy is clueless about most things, and I mean clueless. Driving, still can't drive worth a damn. Anything mechanical, forget it. I had to show her how to replace the light bulbs in her vanity. But there is a local private college in town, an engineering school, and she took a couple chemistry classes, including the highest organic chemistry class they offer. Her final grade was a 96, 98, one of those, which upset her. She told me she stayed after class arguing with the professor that she was right on those he said she missed, and she should have gotten a 100%.

That is what China is sending to this country. Book smart like you wouldn't believe, but really, really inept and clueless about the life skills we Americans have, the ability to fix and repair things or operate outside of some rigid boundaries that the state provides.

After recently walking around the campus of Northwestern last week, I was struck at how many Asian students I saw, and most not speaking English. I have my doubts that those students from Asian countries were any of those who signed the petition.

You're making sweeping generalizations about more than one billion people based on your limited familiarity with ONE person? You know that's stupid, right?

 

[Unkotare]

...

After recently walking around the campus of Northwestern last week, I was struck at how many Asian students I saw, and most not speaking English. ....

And?

 

[Woodznutz]

She told me she stayed after class arguing with the professor that she was right on those he said she missed, and she should have gotten a 100%.

Interesting. 20 or more years ago a college professor tenant of mine told me that his Chinese students were always arguing with him over grades.

 

[ThirdTerm]

Cathy is clueless about most things, and I mean clueless. Driving, still can't drive worth a damn. Anything mechanical, forget it. I had to show her how to replace the light bulbs in her vanity. But there is a local private college in town, an engineering school, and she took a couple chemistry classes, including the highest organic chemistry class they offer. That is what China is sending to this country. Book smart like you wouldn't believe, but really, really inept and clueless about the life skills we Americans have, the ability to fix and repair things or operate outside of some rigid boundaries that the state provides.

Asian women are generally like her and it's men's job to fix things in Asian societies, where traditional gender roles still exist. It's also very rare for Asian women to attend an engineering school because they are desperate at science and math.

Government officials in Japan are aware that the country must improve. A new policy package aims to ensure at least 30% of board members at the Tokyo Stock Exchange's top-listed firms are women by 2030.

To illustrate the challenge ahead, 18.7 percent had no females on the board as of July 2022.

Japan slips to 125th in gender equality rankings | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News

A new leading report on gender equality ranks Japan a lowly 125th out of 146 nations. That's down nine places from the year before.

www3.nhk.or.jp

 

[Unkotare]

Asian women are generally like her and it's men's job to fix things in Asian societies, where traditional gender roles still exist. It's also very rare for Asian women to attend an engineering school because they are desperate at science and math.

What a load of bullshit.

 

[braalian]

Not real math tests ... like proving Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion (yes, that was on a math test I took)

Why in the name of God would the Laws of Planetary Motion be relevant to nursing?

 

[braalian]

I'm not sure if math is needed for nursing

There’s obviously math involved in medication administration, which is probably the single largest component of routine Nursing duties


I get the impression you have a chip on your shoulder against medical professionals because you feel your specific expertise in esoteric subjects means you’re better or smarter and you resent their pay and/or status.

You remind me of phlebotomists who fancy themselves smarter and more educated than licensed nurses because they know more about phlebotomy.

 

[braalian]

and who wants a surgeon who didn't pass anatomy class?

You’re ridiculous if you think you know more about anatomy than an actual surgeon.

It’s not just knowing a slew of obscure factoids from whatever anatomy books you’ve read.

It’s knowing how to cut open people, how to respond to the unexpected, what to do under pressure.

As for nursing, I can say authoritatively that being a good nurse is 90% about practical experience and prioritization/common sense and 10% about the theory/book education from nursing school.

I have up to 30 patients on night shift.

Old demented people who are incontinent and trying to get out of bed.

A woman recently returned from the hospital for respiratory acidosis who will desat quick if her bipap mask doesn’t stay on.

A brittle diabetic on tube feeding in renal failure who refuses dialysis but also elects to remain full code.

Several patients who are so contracted that their entangled limbs press against each other enough to create gnarly pressure sores unless we remain vigilant with repositioning around the clock.

Recovering drug addicts who raise hell on the unit if they don’t get their PRN’s on the dot.

Emotional and demanding family memebers who show up once a month to assuage their guilt by harassing the poor CNAs about mom not having “fresh” ice water with unmelted ice at all times.

Pharmacy delivery that I have to drop everything for because there’s narcotics that got to be signed in and locked away immediately.

It’s not about knowing calculus or algebraic equations. We have to have a solid grasp of arithmetic and don’t have time to sit and parse out algebraic equations. Calculators exist.

It’s about having a broad education in anatomy, health and sciences that enables us to use our experience and common sense to know who to see first, what takes priority and how not to fall apart when everything happens all at once.

But, cheers on knowing how to calculate planetary movements, or whatever.

 

[ReinyDays]

There’s obviously math involved in medication administration, which is probably the single largest component of routine Nursing duties


I get the impression you have a chip on your shoulder against medical professionals because you feel your specific expertise in esoteric subjects means you’re better or smarter and you resent their pay and/or status.

You remind me of phlebotomists who fancy themselves smarter and more educated than licensed nurses because they know more about phlebotomy.

Physics is esoteric? ... it took you a year and a half to come up with that zinger? ...

You've said doctors and nurses are too stupid to understand first year college math ... I disagree but you're the professional here ...

 

[odanny]

And?

And that many (most?) of Asia’s smartest students come to the U.S, to college and a lot of universities rely on this tuition to pay the professors and the money losing sports teams

 

[braalian]

Physics is esoteric? ... it took you a year and a half to come up with that zinger? ...

You've said doctors and nurses are too stupid to understand first year college math ... I disagree but you're the professional here ...

Reading your posts, I get the impression you’ve self taught on certain subjects by reading and you feel that makes you superior to people with formal education in general and medical professionals in particular.

Being well read is great, but it’s not the same thing as a formal education.

Educational programs and professional licenses exist for a reason. Get the chip off your shoulder

 

[Unkotare]

Asian women are generally like her and it's men's job to fix things in Asian societies, where traditional gender roles still exist. It's also very rare for Asian women to attend an engineering school because they are desperate at science and math. ...

You are completely full of crap.

 

[ScorpioRising007]

An online petition by a group of students who could not pass a class by 84 year old Maitland Jones Jr., who literally wrote the book on Organic Chemistry, led to his contract with the school being terminated. The truth is (probably) that these were poor students, and their $75,000 a year does not guarantee them a chance to be an M.D.. He got poor reviews from students because his class is HARD, as organic chemistry can be. It weeds out imposters from those who want a medical career. I bet Chinese students could pass his class.



In the field of organic chemistry, Maitland Jones Jr. has a storied reputation. He taught the subject for decades, first at Princeton and then at New York University, and wrote an influential textbook. He received awards for his teaching, as well as recognition as one of N.Y.U.’s coolest professors.

But last spring, as the campus emerged from pandemic restrictions, 82 of his 350 students signed a petition against him.

Students said the high-stakes course — notorious for ending many a dream of medical school — was too hard, blaming Dr. Jones for their poor test scores.
The professor defended his standards. But just before the start of the fall semester, university deans terminated Dr. Jones’s contract.

“The deans are obviously going for some bottom line, and they want happy students who are saying great things about the university so more people apply and the U.S. News rankings keep going higher,” said Paramjit Arora, a chemistry professor who has worked closely with Dr. Jones.

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

Students could choose between two sections, one focused on problem solving, the other on traditional lectures. Students in both sections shared problems on a GroupMe chat and began venting about the class. Those texts kick-started the petition, submitted in May.

“We are very concerned about our scores, and find that they are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class,” the petition said.

The students criticized Dr. Jones’s decision to reduce the number of midterm exams from three to two, flattening their chances to compensate for low grades. They said that he had tried to conceal course averages, did not offer extra credit and removed Zoom access to his lectures, even though some students had Covid. And, they said, he had a “condescending and demanding” tone.

“We urge you to realize,” the petition said, “that a class with such a high percentage of withdrawals and low grades has failed to make students’ learning and well-being a priority and reflects poorly on the chemistry department as well as the institution as a whole.”

Dr. Jones said in an interview that he reduced the number of exams because the university scheduled the first test date after six classes, which was too soon.

On the accusation that he concealed course averages, Dr. Jones said that they were impossible to provide because 25 percent of the grade relied on lab scores and a final lab test, but that students were otherwise aware of their grades.

Professors in the chemistry department have pushed back. In a letter to Dr. Gabadadze and other deans, they wrote that they worried about setting “a precedent, completely lacking in due process, that could undermine faculty freedoms and correspondingly enfeeble proven pedagogic practices.”

Nathaniel J. Traaseth, one of about 20 chemistry professors, mostly tenured, who signed the letter, said the university’s actions may deter rigorous instruction, especially given the growing tendency of students to file petitions.

“Now the faculty who are not tenured are looking at this case and thinking, ‘Wow, what if this happens to me and they don’t renew my contract?’” he said.

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

Interesting. Before I got my undegrad in business I was going be a biology major in college and took biology and chemistry classes. I don't remember organic chemistry being that incredibly difficult of a class, but I guess it depends what state college you go to. I think I got all A's and B's in those classes. This would make me want to point the blame at the professor more, is he making the class more difficult than need be? I mean I got a B in organic chemistry at the college I went to, but if he was my professor may have been a very different outcome. My most difficult class in college was not calculus either, it was advanced financial accounting. Of course my masters in education had by far easier classes than my undegrad.