As a libertarian I support your choices.

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Simple solutions to complex problems are always wrong.

Always?

To my knowledge. Got an example?

Behold, the Toothbrush That Just Saved the International Space Station

$100 Billion problem. $3 solution.

Using "always" or "never" is usually (not always) a bad idea.

 

[dblack]

There has been more tyranny in the name of protecting the children than I can possibly cite on here. It's the perfect veil to hide your tyrannical intentions behind. I don't know the exact answer to the problem but more government is absolutely not it.

If you don't have better solution you're just ranting.

The solution starts at the individual level. People need to change the way they think. We're becoming accustomed to look to the government.for the answers to many problems that begin with THEMSELVES

Or even problems that began with the government in the first place. Hair of the dog I guess.

 

[alang1216]

If you believe the Dems got together in some smoke-filled room and plotted how to keep people poor and dependent on the gov't, you're delusional. If you think the Dems saw poverty and suffering and tried to come up with a system to alleviate both, you're on track. If those systems had unexpected consequences no one should be surprised. If those systems require constant monitoring, evaluation, and updating no one should be surprised.

Blaming one group is not the answer, working together to fix what is broken is the answer. Obamacare is a good example. The GOP demonized the program and repeatedly tried to kill it. Had they been willing to work with the Dems (and vice versa), we might actually have a decent healthcare system.

You are delusional.
I have been paying attention to this issue for 30 years and you haven’t.
Unlike you, I do not have allegiance to either ideology; I simply deal with facts.
You do realize that the Ds and Rs have different constituencies appealing to very different agendas with the end result being cheap labor.

Doesn't seem like those 30 years have yielded any answers, only a lot of bitterness.

 

[Paulie]

There has been more tyranny in the name of protecting the children than I can possibly cite on here. It's the perfect veil to hide your tyrannical intentions behind. I don't know the exact answer to the problem but more government is absolutely not it.

If you don't have better solution you're just ranting.

The solution starts at the individual level. People need to change the way they think. We're becoming accustomed to look to the government.for the answers to many problems that begin with THEMSELVES

Or even problems that began with the government in the first place. Hair of the dog I guess.

This is very true. But we could be rid of the government tomorrow and still have the problem of people having no fucking clue how to take care of themselves

 

[dblack]

This is very true. But we could be rid of the government tomorrow and still have the problem of people having no fucking clue how to take care of themselves

I don't think we would. Not for long at least.

 

[alang1216]

Simple solutions to complex problems are always wrong.

Always?

To my knowledge. Got an example?

Behold, the Toothbrush That Just Saved the International Space Station

$100 Billion problem. $3 solution.

Using "always" or "never" is usually (not always) a bad idea.

Sorry, not impressed by the example. Some debris needed to be removed, sounds like a simple problem to me. However, I do agree, using "always" or "never" is usually (not always) a bad idea.

 

[alang1216]

Read this:

Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia

They LITERALLY plotted to keep poor people poor and import more poor people.

They being two academics not associated with the Democratic Party. So?

 

[Paulie]

This is very true. But we could be rid of the government tomorrow and still have the problem of people having no fucking clue how to take care of themselves

I don't think we would. Not for long at least.

I would really like to think so. I think people are much more capable than they seem to be these days but they have daddy gov to always fall back on. The biggest thing people can't seem to grasp is that any of the problems in this country are going to become worse before they get better. That's how deeply screwed things have become. But every government answer to a problem is supposed to be some magic spell that fixes things seamlessly and that's an impossible scenario. So until we're ready to take the medicine and get the pain over with things are only going to keep getting worse.

But let's start with no longer trusting these politicians to do the fixing. The same people that will tell you they know these politicians are all corrupt are the same god damn morons who look to those politicians to fix things.

 

[dblack]

The same people that will tell you they know these politicians are all corrupt are the same god damn morons who look to those politicians to fix things.

Yeah. That really nails the problem right there. I'm kind of astounded that Democrats seem to recognize how utterly broken our political landscape is - yet they think now is the right time to have government takeover health care. W.T.F??

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Read this:

Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia

They LITERALLY plotted to keep poor people poor and import more poor people.

They being two academics not associated with the Democratic Party. So?

Get Real: The Politics of Francis Fox Piven | Society for US Intellectual History

"However, Piven rooted her recommendation for disruption and crises by referring back not only to her experience at Mobilization – where the poor only received attention when they caused trouble – but also to the larger dynamic that brought the Democratic Party to deal with racial injustice in the first place: the ability of black people to threaten the future electoral success of the Democratic Party. “Disruptive action,” Piven wrote, “has always been the main political recourse of the very poor.”[13]"

This 86-Year-Old Radical May Save (or Sink) the Democrats

 

[alang1216]

There has been more tyranny in the name of protecting the children than I can possibly cite on here. It's the perfect veil to hide your tyrannical intentions behind. I don't know the exact answer to the problem but more government is absolutely not it.

If you don't have better solution you're just ranting.

The solution starts at the individual level. People need to change the way they think. We're becoming accustomed to look to the government.for the answers to many problems that begin with OURSELVES

You've gone from ranting to dreaming. Good luck.

 

[Paulie]

There has been more tyranny in the name of protecting the children than I can possibly cite on here. It's the perfect veil to hide your tyrannical intentions behind. I don't know the exact answer to the problem but more government is absolutely not it.

If you don't have better solution you're just ranting.

The solution starts at the individual level. People need to change the way they think. We're becoming accustomed to look to the government.for the answers to many problems that begin with OURSELVES

You've gone from ranting to dreaming. Good luck.

I give the solution and you call it dreaming

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Read this:

Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia

They LITERALLY plotted to keep poor people poor and import more poor people.

They being two academics not associated with the Democratic Party. So?

Here's more:

"Political scientist and sociologist Frances Fox Piven has inspired and angered political activists for decades. Almost fifty years ago, the Nation published an article by her and her colleague and husband Richard Cloward in which they argued that, with Democrats in control of the White House and Congress, poor people should claim the welfare benefits to which they were entitled. The result would swamp the system and lead to something new, a guaranteed annual income, which would end poverty as we knew it."

A Moment for Movements

 

[gipper]

People make bad choices. It’s only human. Would you rather they not be supported and die in the gutter?

Here's a crazy thought. It's going to be a shock to your world view, so you might want to have a seat. The thing is - it's really not a choice between government dictating things and people dying in the gutter. Believe it or not, we can take care of ourselves, we can take care of our families, our friends, our community, without resorting to legal mandates. True story™.

The problem today is government and big business are one. Their goal is profit and power. The people have no protections from these two criminal enterprises.

Well, they're not quite "one", yet. But they're getting there. Business and government merging into one entity is called socialism.

I would love a libertarian society, but it ain’t going to happen in the quasi Fascist State we live in today.

Agreed. We need an awakening - a realization among the public that government is a terrible way to make most decisions. Without that, we're pretty much destined to go down the state socialism slavery route.

You missed my point about people. Yes most people can take care of themselves, but you must know that some can’t or they make dumb decisions, that result in living in poverty.

Secondly, the extreme wealthy are well cared for by big government. I find this reprehensible when we know millions of Americans are suffering. Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. Is that your motto?

LOL. It’s called Fascism when government and business merge. Socialism is the government taking control of business, rather than colluding.

 

[Paulie]

Socialism doesn't have to have anything to do with government. It's just an economic system where the means of production are controlled by the people collectively instead of privately owned businesses. Socialism and capitalism exist regardless of government. Government is what RUINS those systems. Socialism sounds great on paper and it works very well in small little niches but it doesn't work well on a macro scale and that's why government always has to inevitably force it on people. At that point it isn't socialism anymore it's just tyranny.

 

[dblack]

People make bad choices. It’s only human. Would you rather they not be supported and die in the gutter?

Here's a crazy thought. It's going to be a shock to your world view, so you might want to have a seat. The thing is - it's really not a choice between government dictating things and people dying in the gutter. Believe it or not, we can take care of ourselves, we can take care of our families, our friends, our community, without resorting to legal mandates. True story™.

The problem today is government and big business are one. Their goal is profit and power. The people have no protections from these two criminal enterprises.

Well, they're not quite "one", yet. But they're getting there. Business and government merging into one entity is called socialism.

I would love a libertarian society, but it ain’t going to happen in the quasi Fascist State we live in today.

Agreed. We need an awakening - a realization among the public that government is a terrible way to make most decisions. Without that, we're pretty much destined to go down the state socialism slavery route.

You missed my point about people. Yes most people can take care of themselves, but you must know that some can’t or they make dumb decisions, that result in living in poverty.

Right. And "we" can take care of those people without resorting to legal mandates. Which was my point. That you missed.

Secondly, the extreme wealthy are well cared for by big government. I find this reprehensible when we know millions of Americans are suffering. Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. Is that your motto?

Nope. Government shouldn't be "taking care" of anyone. That's not its purpose. Using it for that is an abuse of the grant of sovereignty.

Socialism is the government taking control of business, rather than colluding.

And? The point is, they merge. Government and business become one. Business leaders will be politicians, and politicians will decide what kind of health care you get, what kind of food is available, what you do for a living, where you live, pretty much every. god. damned. thing.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Socialism doesn't have to have anything to do with government. It's just an economic system where the means of production are controlled by the people collectively instead of privately owned businesses.

Not to be a nitpicker, but technically, that is communism, not socialism. Socialism is government controlling the means of production and distribution. Communism is the people collectively doing so without government.

But, I have argued that people are incapable of living in a stateless society and collectively controlling the means of production without having familial or other close ties.

Thus, Marx was a fucking idiot when he said that socialism leads to communism. It is, in fact, the exact opposite. People will throw off a government and become communists, then not be able to handle it, so they will place the means of production in the hands of a government.

.

 

[alang1216]

There has been more tyranny in the name of protecting the children than I can possibly cite on here. It's the perfect veil to hide your tyrannical intentions behind. I don't know the exact answer to the problem but more government is absolutely not it.

If you don't have better solution you're just ranting.

The solution starts at the individual level. People need to change the way they think. We're becoming accustomed to look to the government.for the answers to many problems that begin with OURSELVES

You've gone from ranting to dreaming. Good luck.

I give the solution and you call it dreaming

If you think the solution is that people need to change the way they think, you're either VERY patient, or you're dreaming.

 

[alang1216]

Read this:

Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia

They LITERALLY plotted to keep poor people poor and import more poor people.

They being two academics not associated with the Democratic Party. So?

Here's more:

"Political scientist and sociologist Frances Fox Piven has inspired and angered political activists for decades. Almost fifty years ago, the Nation published an article by her and her colleague and husband Richard Cloward in which they argued that, with Democrats in control of the White House and Congress, poor people should claim the welfare benefits to which they were entitled. The result would swamp the system and lead to something new, a guaranteed annual income, which would end poverty as we knew it."

A Moment for Movements

Again, this is not the Dems plotting, it is academics attempting to manipulate the Dem party.

 

[Paulie]

Socialism doesn't have to have anything to do with government. It's just an economic system where the means of production are controlled by the people collectively instead of privately owned businesses.

Not to be a nitpicker, but technically, that is communism, not socialism. Socialism is government controlling the means of production and distribution. Communism is the people collectively doing so without government.

But, I have argued that people are incapable of living in a stateless society and collectively controlling the means of production without having familial or other close ties.

Thus, Marx was a fucking idiot when he said that socialism leads to communism. It is, in fact, the exact opposite. People will throw off a government and become communists, then not be able to handle it, so they will place the means of production in the hands of a government.

.

You kind of have it backwards though. Communism is considered the eventual result after socialism. The only reason government ever was involved in any of these systems is because that's how it's manipulated and plundered. None of these systems needs a government to operate but when the people start to realize it isn't working on a grand scale and want out, the government maintains its implementation for the purpose of control and abuse.