Are truths relative or absolute?

[PratchettFan]

These are more "localized", partial elements that address the
question was this murder or child abuse not if murder itself is wrong or right.

But, the ultimate truth, we all agree is still wrong.

Again, if truths were relative
then would could argue that, ultimately,
murder is never wrong.

That would be a stretch, don't you think?

I don't think so

If all truth is relative then any point along the acceptance or rejection of
murder would be possible

Exactly. Which is precisely why your concept of truth is relative.

 

[jillian]

Are truths relative or absolute?

I believe that truth is, ultimately, absolute.
Today, many would argue that truth is relative.

I find that hard to believe. Based on the fact,
there is common ground for most on us on many issues.

Example, most of us would say:
-murder is wrong
-child abuse is wrong
-theft is wrong

Since, I can not really see how these truths would ever
change nor want to live in a world were they did,
I tend to believe that truth is absolute.

As for the rest that is not the same for us, it is only
part of the learning curve on the process of discovery
of the "truth".

in my belief system there may be "truth" but we haven't arrived at it yet. the reason the talmudic method of study is questioning is to arrive at that purported truth. but none of us can say we know what that is.

kaballah believes that what we see is only the "manifestation on earth" of what exists. it believes that what actually exists or what is true, is far beyond the comprehenion of the individual.

In Christianity,

"n John 18:38 Pilate, interrogating Jesus, asks “What is truth?”

Interestingly there is no agreement as to whether this question was asked in earnest or was asked dismissively. Was Pilate asking a deep question, hoping to connect with Jesus, perhaps to understand him better? Or was he dismissing the concept of truth (“Bleh. What’s this truth thing anyway?&#8221 in a well-meaning attempt to advise Jesus to say anything to save himself? Nobody knows.

He Lives: The Law, Lesson 1: Absolute Truth

What purports to be "truth" also varies with time. For example, 150 years ago, slavery was acceptable in this country. "Truth" was that there were some segments of society that were considered "less human" than others. That is not "truth" as we know it today.

So, as my guy Andrew Lloyd Weber said in JC Superstar... "and what is truth, is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?".

(and yes, you'll see those lyrics quoted in the above link... which is why i found the link in the first place since the lyric was my google search).

 

[Unkotare]

Are truths relative or absolute?

If it's relative it's not a "truth."

 

[jillian]

These are more "localized", partial elements that address the
question was this murder or child abuse not if murder itself is wrong or right.

But, the ultimate truth, we all agree is still wrong.

Again, if truths were relative
then would could argue that, ultimately,
murder is never wrong.

That would be a stretch, don't you think?

I don't think so

If all truth is relative then any point along the acceptance or rejection of
murder would be possible

but not every killing is "murder".

even the 10 commandments do not, in their original, say "thou shalt not kill", they say "thou shalt not murder". there is a difference.

and what is defined as muder can differ community to community... society to society... era to era.

 

[Neotrotsky]

I don't think you are talking about truth. I think you are talking about values. Right and wrong are meaningless in terms of truth.

If I hold a pencil up, let it go and it falls to the ground - that is a truth. It happened. Whether my letting it go was the right thing or the wrong thing to do is purely a value judgement having nothing to do with the event itself.

I am not sure of that...
If the same pencil someone said, "it will not fall down"
that statement of "truth" would be wrong

The decision to let go or not of the pencil seems to be
a different truth or issue.

Plus, the truths I am thinking of, are more global and consequential in their impact and
integral to helping mankind survive in the long run.

Granted, a society where murder was viewed, as never wrong
could survive; but how long?

Your example does show how much easier this is for the concrete physical world.
The law of gravity, outside of theoretical physics, does seem to be absolute. It is in effect, harder to deny.

For other things where subjective factors can be worked in,
it is more difficult.

Of course, the other dilemma, how do we really know when we are there?
We never really will.... we can only hope we move in the right direction

I was only offering the examples of murder and child abuse as areas
where the commonality of agreement that they are wrong, could be used
as "evidence" that there is some absolute truth.

I think you misunderstand me. It was not any prediction of what might happen that constituted truth. It was the event itself. It was true it fell not because I believed it would fall or claimed it would fall. It was true because it did fall.

Murder is a legal term, right and wrong are values. Neither are truth. If I shove a knife into your chest and you die, that is a truth. It is true because it happened. But that truth does not make it murder, nor does it speak to right or wrong. Those are values which are purely subjective.

Let us say I am an absolute ruler in a society in which children are routinely sold into slavery and prized as sex toys. If I purchase one and use it in that manner, was I doing wrong? Not according to the society in which I was lliving. If I killed someone just for the pleasure of it, would that be wrong? Not if the standards of the society consider me above the law. That is all subjective. Only in the act itself will you find any truth.

If you believe truth is only relative, sure

But, I would argue that the cliche "when in Rome..."
does not make it the absolute truth

History is filled with thousands of actions where relative truths justified
bad behavior and yet, in the scheme of things, I would find it hard to believe
that they would be ever accepted in the long run as the Truth
...the holocaust and slavery come to mind on this...
To me, the experience/meaning of man must be more than "just the moment".

Again, this is all a matter of opinion and the only "proof"
I can offer is the commonality factor as a indicator of some
absolute truth

Example
Religious or not
when Moses came down with the 10 commandments
they said things that most people intrinsically would accept

I find it hard to believe that they would have as readily accepted the
commandments, if they said things, like murder your parents and steal from
your neighbors

 

[jillian]

Are truths relative or absolute?

If it's relative it's not a "truth."

that begs the question.

 

[there4eyeM]

"Are truths relative or absolute?"

The truth is right there where you are. You cannot be anywhere else. You are engulfed in it.
What is it? Only you can know.
What is it?

 

[Unkotare]

Are truths relative or absolute?

If it's relative it's not a "truth."

that begs the question.

It's a false question.

 

[there4eyeM]

"To me, the experience/meaning of man must be more than "just the moment""

You are frustrating yourself.
Imagine arguing that gravity is wrong because it doesn't allow our bodies to soar the way our spirit can.
Nevertheless, that is where we are, under the influence of gravity and in the now.
It is the only time that exists.

 

[Neotrotsky]

Are truths relative or absolute?

I believe that truth is, ultimately, absolute.
Today, many would argue that truth is relative.

I find that hard to believe. Based on the fact,
there is common ground for most on us on many issues.

Example, most of us would say:
-murder is wrong
-child abuse is wrong
-theft is wrong

Since, I can not really see how these truths would ever
change nor want to live in a world were they did,
I tend to believe that truth is absolute.

As for the rest that is not the same for us, it is only
part of the learning curve on the process of discovery
of the "truth".

in my belief system there may be "truth" but we haven't arrived at it yet. the reason the talmudic method of study is questioning is to arrive at that purported truth. but none of us can say we know what that is.

kaballah believes that what we see is only the "manifestation on earth" of what exists. it believes that what actually exists or what is true, is far beyond the comprehenion of the individual.

In Christianity,

"n John 18:38 Pilate, interrogating Jesus, asks “What is truth?”

Interestingly there is no agreement as to whether this question was asked in earnest or was asked dismissively. Was Pilate asking a deep question, hoping to connect with Jesus, perhaps to understand him better? Or was he dismissing the concept of truth (“Bleh. What’s this truth thing anyway?”) in a well-meaning attempt to advise Jesus to say anything to save himself? Nobody knows.

He Lives: The Law, Lesson 1: Absolute Truth

What purports to be "truth" also varies with time. For example, 150 years ago, slavery was acceptable in this country. "Truth" was that there were some segments of society that were considered "less human" than others. That is not "truth" as we know it today.

So, as my guy Andrew Lloyd Weber said in JC Superstar... "and what is truth, is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?".

(and yes, you'll see those lyrics quoted in the above link... which is why i found the link in the first place since the lyric was my google search).

Agree
we as creatures have not reached it yet

Did you ever read/study in school
The Allegory of the Cave

We are “chained in a cave,” with only a fire behind us and our perception of the world limited by shadows on the wall.

Imagine, if we could be freed from those "chains" and see the truth.

 

[jillian]

If it's relative it's not a "truth."

that begs the question.

It's a false question.

and was it false when pilot asked it?

 

[jillian]

Are truths relative or absolute?

I believe that truth is, ultimately, absolute.
Today, many would argue that truth is relative.

I find that hard to believe. Based on the fact,
there is common ground for most on us on many issues.

Example, most of us would say:
-murder is wrong
-child abuse is wrong
-theft is wrong

Since, I can not really see how these truths would ever
change nor want to live in a world were they did,
I tend to believe that truth is absolute.

As for the rest that is not the same for us, it is only
part of the learning curve on the process of discovery
of the "truth".

in my belief system there may be "truth" but we haven't arrived at it yet. the reason the talmudic method of study is questioning is to arrive at that purported truth. but none of us can say we know what that is.

kaballah believes that what we see is only the "manifestation on earth" of what exists. it believes that what actually exists or what is true, is far beyond the comprehenion of the individual.

In Christianity,

"n John 18:38 Pilate, interrogating Jesus, asks “What is truth?”

Interestingly there is no agreement as to whether this question was asked in earnest or was asked dismissively. Was Pilate asking a deep question, hoping to connect with Jesus, perhaps to understand him better? Or was he dismissing the concept of truth (“Bleh. What’s this truth thing anyway?”) in a well-meaning attempt to advise Jesus to say anything to save himself? Nobody knows.

He Lives: The Law, Lesson 1: Absolute Truth

What purports to be "truth" also varies with time. For example, 150 years ago, slavery was acceptable in this country. "Truth" was that there were some segments of society that were considered "less human" than others. That is not "truth" as we know it today.

So, as my guy Andrew Lloyd Weber said in JC Superstar... "and what is truth, is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?".

(and yes, you'll see those lyrics quoted in the above link... which is why i found the link in the first place since the lyric was my google search).

Agree
we as creatures have not reached it yet

Did you ever read/study in school
The Allegory of the Cave

We are “chained in a cave,” with only a fire behind us and our perception of the world limited by shadows on the wall.

Imagine, if we could be freed from those "chains" and see the truth.

i don't recall reading that.... but it raises interesting questions.

which also raises interesting questions about moral authority since we each only have our own conscience to work with.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

"Are truths relative or absolute?"

They are absolute. however, arguing moral implication as truth is well, the wrong way of doing it. The question is murder wrong? Is not a question of truth, it is a subjective question of morality.

Truth is energy expelled and then burnt into the vortex of time. For instance, who built the first combustion engine. This is a question truth. it has an absolute answer.

Sometimes, and especially in political, or war aspects of history. The truth of a given situation is clouded by some factors. Such as who won and who wrote the history. Also, what people BELIEVE based on the prior.

Finding the truth in certain instances is difficult and sometimes down right impossible. That does not mean the truth of the situation is less absolute. it just means the muck has built up to a no return point and perhaps only a few know the truth. Or maybe took the truth to their grave where it is lost forever and left only to others interpretations of what they believe.

 

[saveliberty]

I guess if none of us intereacted with each other, Jillian might have a point. There are "morals" which have stood the test of time and most cultures. They have become core beliefs, truths for lack of a better term. To claim there is no truth is merely an attempt to let government be the arbitor of truth and a power grab. The left is counting this outcome.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

You can not base the truth on a moral implication. Period. That isn't truth, it is subjection and it is relative. Truth is or has been in real terms. Not terms you believe in.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

I guess if none of us intereacted with each other, Jillian might have a point. There are "morals" which have stood the test of time and most cultures. They have become core beliefs, truths for lack of a better term. To claim there is no truth is merely an attempt to let government be the arbitor of truth and a power grab. The left is counting this outcome.

They are not truths. They are moral implications. You had it right the first time. No need to wave truth around unless we can be sure that the energy used was and where it went exactly. Making truth absolute.

 

[there4eyeM]

"and was it false when pilot asked it?"

Pilate was an educated, intellectual example of his epoch, trained in philosophy and debate. He knew that no absolute could withstand close scrutiny because there was always the residual question of, "according to whom?"
His question was about the nature of the word.

Jesus spoke from a position of knowing something was true. He had zero doubt. For him, an absolute absolutely existed.

They were separated by their knowledge.

 

[catzmeow]

Are truths relative or absolute?

I believe that truth is, ultimately, absolute.
Today, many would argue that truth is relative.

I find that hard to believe. Based on the fact,
there is common ground for most on us on many issues.

Example, most of us would say:
-murder is wrong
-child abuse is wrong
-theft is wrong

Since, I can not really see how these truths would ever
change nor want to live in a world were they did,
I tend to believe that truth is absolute.

As for the rest that is not the same for us, it is only
part of the learning curve on the process of discovery
of the "truth".

Facts are absolute, "truths" are generally subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I guess if none of us intereacted with each other, Jillian might have a point. There are "morals" which have stood the test of time and most cultures. They have become core beliefs, truths for lack of a better term. To claim there is no truth is merely an attempt to let government be the arbitor of truth and a power grab. The left is counting this outcome.

The problem isn't relative truth, which are moralistic principles, but ultimate or absolute truth.

We can say that everything in the phenomenal world is impermanent. I would say tht is an absolutely true statement.

 

[PratchettFan]

I am not sure of that...
If the same pencil someone said, "it will not fall down"
that statement of "truth" would be wrong

The decision to let go or not of the pencil seems to be
a different truth or issue.

Plus, the truths I am thinking of, are more global and consequential in their impact and
integral to helping mankind survive in the long run.

Granted, a society where murder was viewed, as never wrong
could survive; but how long?

Your example does show how much easier this is for the concrete physical world.
The law of gravity, outside of theoretical physics, does seem to be absolute. It is in effect, harder to deny.

For other things where subjective factors can be worked in,
it is more difficult.

Of course, the other dilemma, how do we really know when we are there?
We never really will.... we can only hope we move in the right direction

I was only offering the examples of murder and child abuse as areas
where the commonality of agreement that they are wrong, could be used
as "evidence" that there is some absolute truth.

I think you misunderstand me. It was not any prediction of what might happen that constituted truth. It was the event itself. It was true it fell not because I believed it would fall or claimed it would fall. It was true because it did fall.

Murder is a legal term, right and wrong are values. Neither are truth. If I shove a knife into your chest and you die, that is a truth. It is true because it happened. But that truth does not make it murder, nor does it speak to right or wrong. Those are values which are purely subjective.

Let us say I am an absolute ruler in a society in which children are routinely sold into slavery and prized as sex toys. If I purchase one and use it in that manner, was I doing wrong? Not according to the society in which I was lliving. If I killed someone just for the pleasure of it, would that be wrong? Not if the standards of the society consider me above the law. That is all subjective. Only in the act itself will you find any truth.

If you believe truth is only relative, sure

But, I would argue that the cliche "when in Rome..."
does not make it the absolute truth

History is filled with thousands of actions where relative truths justified
bad behavior and yet, in the scheme of things, I would find it hard to believe
that they would be ever accepted in the long run as the Truth
...the holocaust and slavery come to mind on this...
To me, the experience/meaning of man must be more than "just the moment".

Again, this is all a matter of opinion and the only "proof"
I can offer is the commonality factor as a indicator of some
absolute truth

Example
Religious or not
when Moses came down with the 10 commandments
they said things that most people intrinsically would accept

I find it hard to believe that they would have as readily accepted the
commandments, if they said things, like murder your parents and steal from
your neighbors

I do not believe truth is relative. I believe you are using the word "truth" inaccurately. You are substituting that word for values, beliefs, mores, etc. None of those are the truth. They are always relative. The truth is never relative. The truth just is.

Let us take your example of the 10 commandments. Give me one that most people would accept intrinsically?