CDZ Are the poor lazy, or are the lazy poor?

[jwoodie]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

 

[RodISHI]

There are many variables in what the causes of poverty are.

 

[jwoodie]

There are many variables in what the causes of poverty are.

Why don't you list them, in order of importance?

 

[RodISHI]

There are many variables in what the causes of poverty are.

Why don't you list them, in order of importance?

My apologies Jwoodie. I'm working on something else this morning but maybe later if I have time.

1. Would be family environment. How and what the parent(s) thought and raised their children to believe in. Events during the child's growth also play a big part of how well the child will do in later life.

 

[jwoodie]

1. Would be family environment. How and what the parent(s) thought and raised their children to believe in. Events during the child's growth also play a big part of how well the child will do in later life.

I agree completely, but this raises the question of whether other people (e.g., government) can or should try to intervene in the family environment. Other than in cases of child abuse or neglect, is there any realistic alternative to rewarding good behavior and not rewarding bad behavior?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

Or Your Daddy Buying You a Job Through Obsolete Aristocratic Education

What's so lazy about refusing to work without pay, which is all college education means?

 

[RodISHI]

1. Would be family environment. How and what the parent(s) thought and raised their children to believe in. Events during the child's growth also play a big part of how well the child will do in later life.

I agree completely, but this raises the question of whether other people (e.g., government) can or should try to intervene in the family environment. Other than in cases of child abuse or neglect, is there any realistic alternative to rewarding good behavior and not rewarding bad behavior?

I don't believe government should be involved in family affairs unless abuse is involved. So abuse must be defined with some logic behind it.

A system of capitalism provides for the rewards (for good behavior) if it is properly and justly regulated. Currently we have an unsustainable imbalance and it appears that the correction in that may be a real uphill battle for many reasons.

 

[Unkotare]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

Or Your Daddy Buying You a Job Through Obsolete Aristocratic Education

What's so lazy about refusing to work without pay, which is all college education means?

Do you expect to be paid to eat, exercise, sleep and take a shit too?

 

[MarathonMike]

As some have stated already there are multiple factors that result in Americans sliding to the bottom end of the scale. In order of importance, this would be my top three:

1. Determination/Ambition. I think you are just born with it.
2. Parental Influence.
3. Intelligence.

 

[jwoodie]

As some have stated already there are multiple factors that result in Americans sliding to the bottom end of the scale. In order of importance, this would be my top three:

1. Determination/Ambition. I think you are just born with it.
2. Parental Influence.
3. Intelligence.

So you discount the effect of incentive on behavior? Marx would have agreed with you:

"To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability."

 

[MarathonMike]

Actually lack of those three would

As some have stated already there are multiple factors that result in Americans sliding to the bottom end of the scale. In order of importance, this would be my top three:

1. Determination/Ambition. I think you are just born with it.
2. Parental Influence.
3. Intelligence.

So you discount the effect of incentive on behavior? Marx would have agreed with you:

"To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability."

No, I just don't think incentive is as important to an individual's success or failure as one's own determination, parents, and intelligence.

 

[Toronado3800]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

I can't tell:

Are we talking about why the poor are poor like the title says?

Or are we talking about if we should reward people for work?

1-Why are the poor, well poor?
Bunches of reasons. Its safe to say more people who work hard are at least middle class. I see enough folks who have had a run of bad luck they just can't pull themselves out of. Think about ending up in the payday loan hole. That guy flipping burgers and really trying to keep up is working as hard as your congressman. Perhaps he just interviews poorly?

I wonder how many reasons we could come up with....Maybe 10 basic reasons and a bunch of sub reasons?

2-Should we reward people for work and not reward them for sloth? Of course. We also need to have some form of compassion though.

Some people say this is a Christianity based nation. Those folks obviously want to help the poor. Jesus, sandals, least of your neighbors, rich man, needles, heaven. All that hippie Christian stuff.

As much as I can tolerate watching the poor starve or die in the street from leprosy waiting for their savior to heal them, my wife and many others can't. They care about property values and the like.

It also comes in handy to have enough welfare people can wander about in life until hopefully they get their stuff together. If for no other reason an obtainable welfare system keeps the poor from kidnapping my kid for ransom. That isn't the country I want to live in.

 

[jwoodie]

Some people say this is a Christianity based nation. Those folks obviously want to help the poor. Jesus, sandals, least of your neighbors, rich man, needles, heaven. All that hippie Christian stuff.

Why are you referencing Christian teachings if you don't believe them?

 

[Toronado3800]

Some people say this is a Christianity based nation. Those folks obviously want to help the poor. Jesus, sandals, least of your neighbors, rich man, needles, heaven. All that hippie Christian stuff.

Why are you referencing Christian teachings if you don't believe them?

I referenced the Christian teachings (which I may or may not believe in all or some of) because a bunch of folks say this is a Christian nation or whatever.

THUS, Christian teachings are important in finding the reasons behind some of our nation's actions.

My idea was if some politician followed in Jesus's path he would be all about doing unto others and helping Samaritans, that type of hippie lovey dovey help the poor stuff.

 

[jwoodie]

I referenced the Christian teachings (which I may or may not believe in all or some of) because a bunch of folks say this is a Christian nation or whatever.

THUS, Christian teachings are important in finding the reasons behind some of our nation's actions.

My idea was if some politician followed in Jesus's path he would be all about doing unto others and helping Samaritans, that type of hippie lovey dovey help the poor stuff.

THUS? A "bunch of folks" think the Moon landing was faked. So what?

It appears that you are conflating Liberal ideology with Christian theology. They are not the same.

 

[Toronado3800]

I referenced the Christian teachings (which I may or may not believe in all or some of) because a bunch of folks say this is a Christian nation or whatever.

THUS, Christian teachings are important in finding the reasons behind some of our nation's actions.

My idea was if some politician followed in Jesus's path he would be all about doing unto others and helping Samaritans, that type of hippie lovey dovey help the poor stuff.

THUS? A "bunch of folks" think the Moon landing was faked. So what?

It appears that you are conflating Liberal ideology with Christian theology. They are not the same.

If you do not think we are a Christian based nation that makes many of my statements about Christian influence on our welfare system moot. In some ways I agree and disagree.

In which way am I confusing Christian and Liberal theology? Both want to help the poor or least of their neighbors? Splitting hairs between having the state do it through taxes or the Church do it through tithes seems small.

 

[MarathonMike]

That's all well and good, but I think it has little to do with the OP. I thought we were discussing why in a country like ours, people end up poor. What I see is a general lack of motivation among the poor. But what causes the lack of motivation? Laziness? Poor self esteem? General hopelessness? Poor Parental role models? Sub normal intelligence? Other? Probably all of those things and more.

 

[jwoodie]

In which way am I confusing Christian and Liberal theology?

Christian theology relies on an individual's voluntary reunion with God. Liberal ideology relies on coerced group action. In other words, leading by example vs. leading by force.

 

[Toronado3800]

In which way am I confusing Christian and Liberal theology?

Christian theology relies on an individual's voluntary reunion with God. Liberal ideology relies on coerced group action. In other words, leading by example vs. leading by force.

Interesting.

When I think of the left leadership in America I think of the now retirement age "Keaton Family Generation". They don't seem the violent forceful group. Their classical opposition from the Military Industrial Complex party who tried to equally use state laws to enforce segregation are the forceful ones in my usual train of thought.


BUT, if you mean the Clintons and Sanders' forcing us to pay taxes or have medical insurance, yes they do I suppose. Just like the "small government" party wants to use state laws to force people not to use this bathroom or other and not to have abortions.

These are different people than the Soviet left of Stalin.

Also from my POV Catholics are the leaders of the Christian world. They are the one holy catholic and apostolic church most(here anyways) Lutherans still honor in their Nicene Creed.

Still thinking out-loud....The Catholic Church leadership is centralized so I did not see the difference between a centralized government and Christianity. Some of the Protestants go vote on what they believe and most have looser financial control of their churches....Some Protestants are pretty darned strict though even by comparison to the Church of Rome.

I understand your POV and will think about it. I still consider welfare a lovey dovey Jesus like Christian help your neighbor thing to have in your government though.

 

[Disir]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

I have come across several different types of people. I regularly encounter young women that did not graduate high school because their mission in life was to be a housewife. They have 3 kids right off the bat and they can't work. They barely keep house and the child care is highly questionable. They view the world in a very surreal way. They party a lot. They don't have a lot of control over their situation and they are not interested in obtaining it. They want to be taken care of and they have no problem using others to do it. They are aware that there was a time when part of the negotiation between women that did not work outside the home and their partners was they did a whole 'lotta crap for their partners. They do not feel obligated to do any of that currently. So, when the party is over they have to start at the bottom and they can't afford to take classes or get ahead. So, they find another partner. Well, what kind of guys are "available" at that socioeconomic level? Sexual offenders, drug addicts, severe mentally ill men, guys who have been incarcerated for most of their lives.

It is 2017 there has been enough time to ditch the Cinderella crap. Love is grand but it doesn't pay the rent.

I have also met a few people that didn't aim very high because they don't know what that looks like. They graduate high school and they obtain bs certificates through "schools". They work very hard but those certificates are meaningless in the real world or the jobs are outsourced. They can't navigate the education system. They may be the first in the family to graduate high school.

I encounter a plethora of people that are mentally ill or have an intellectual disability. These are by far the majority of the people at the bottom.