CDZ Are the poor lazy, or are the lazy poor?

[Picaro]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

The hardest work pays the least and is the least steady employment, so I don't buy the 'lazy' narrative. Anybody can make up anecdotal stories to justify anything they want. Same old narrative, the poor are obligated to work 140 hours a week for the same wages illegals or Chinese work for, they should be saving half of that and investing it in Wall Street, they should be paying the other half for health insurance, and another half on education, and another half to the government to help subsidize the middle and upper classes, and so on.

 

[Billo_Really]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

No it is not undeniable effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society. Emphasis on the operative word "should". It should be, but many times that is not the case. However, its not because of lethargy and slovenliness, although that does happen to. But for most, working hard where there is no opportunity, is a dead end street.

You can't work hard at a job, if that job is not offered. You can't work hard at getting a job, if there is no job to get. And settling for a minimum wage job does not pay the bills.

You're also right the lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded. And that manifests in many ways. It can be said that someone who does not seek the truth, can be demonstrating slovenliness. Someone who gets all their information from TV, or one source, or from one political view, can be demonstrating slovenliness. Someone not doing their research, not vetting the information they are receiving in an objective manner, not practicing deductive reasoning, could be demonstrating lethargy. And so could automatically assuming the poor are poor because they are lazy.

 

[Mac1958]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

I'd think it's an "all of the above" issue. Some are lazy; some (many) simply don't have the capacity to significantly improve their lives; some have tried to do better but have made bad decisions; some have been unlucky; some were handicapped by being raised in terrible conditions.

The problem is that - as with so many other issues - we deal with the problem in simplistic, binary ways. One end of the spectrum, animated by its maternal side, treats them like helpless victims who need to be coddled. The other end, animated by its paternal side, essentially ignores them and tells them to buck up.

An individual CAN improve their own lives. But sometimes they DO need a hand.

Just as the causes are varied, the approaches in dealing with it have to be varied.
.

 

[Mac1958]

...

 

[Dragonlady]

Your ignorance of people of limited means is astonishing. Are you willfully blind to poverty that is right in front of you? Apparently so.

47% of Americans, as categorized by Mitt Romney, receive some form of means-tested government assistance, be it food stamps, Medicaid, or welfare.

47% and yet none of you claim to know anyone who is "poor". Most of the American poor, are very hardworking people, holding down two or more jobs just to provide for their families.

Some people make poor decisions, some don't know how to improve their situations. Other have health problems which prevent them from working full time, so they work when they can, and make do when they can't. Not an easy life.

Life is stressful and exhausting, when you're poor. If you or your spouse is ill and can't work, no pay. You can't take advantage of sales on things you need because you lack the savings or the credit to buy it.

Discounts on utility bills if paid before? No hope of using them when you're behind and scrambling to stave off disconnection.



Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[jwoodie]

Your ignorance of people of limited means is astonishing. Are you willfully blind to poverty that is right in front of you? Apparently so.

47% of Americans, as categorized by Mitt Romney, receive some form of means-tested government assistance, be it food stamps, Medicaid, or welfare.

47% and yet none of you claim to know anyone who is "poor". Most of the American poor, are very hardworking people, holding down two or more jobs just to provide for their families.

I'm sorry to have incited such an emotional response to a rational question. I am very familiar with generational "poverty" among my own relations and the effects of welfare programs on their attitudes and lifestyles. People who disdain the thought of accepting a lower paying entry-level job can hardly be described as "hardworking."

 

[jwoodie]

An individual CAN improve their own lives. But sometimes they DO need a hand.

And how has that "hand" worked out over the past 50 years?

 

[Mac1958]

An individual CAN improve their own lives. But sometimes they DO need a hand.

And how has that "hand" worked out over the past 50 years?

Varying degrees of success, certainly. So we can either punt or look for ways to improve it, without letting people fall through the cracks. Because we're better than that.
.

 

[jwoodie]

Varying degrees of success, certainly. So we can either punt or look for ways to improve it, without letting people fall through the cracks. Because we're better than that.

We may have been successful at feeling better about ourselves, but the cumulative effect of these programs has been progressively [sic] less social and economic mobility in our country. We can do better by objectively assessing these programs rather than continuing to rely on "hope and change."

 

[danielpalos]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

We have an understanding of economics, now. Rational choice theory accounts for many market recognizable, behavior patterns.

Why should I believe your assumption that "hard work" is rewarded under any form of Capitalism?

 

[danielpalos]

There are many variables in what the causes of poverty are.

Why don't you list them, in order of importance?

One that can solve all of our capital based problems. Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation purposes in our at-will employment States.

Solving simple poverty does just that, and improves the efficiency of our economy.

The right wing has a problem with it, because capitalism interferes with their socialism, on a national basis.

 

[danielpalos]

It seems to me that we have been upside down in our thinking, concentrating more on the avoidance of stereotypes, than on the causes and effects resulting in poverty. Is it not undeniable that effort and hard work should be rewarded in our society? Does it not follow that lethargy and slovenliness should not be rewarded?

Since these distinctions are primarily psychological rather than physical, how does making excuses improve this situation?

Or Your Daddy Buying You a Job Through Obsolete Aristocratic Education

What's so lazy about refusing to work without pay, which is all college education means?

Do you expect to be paid to eat, exercise, sleep and take a shit too?

Only if you are Good, national socialist.

 

[danielpalos]

That's all well and good, but I think it has little to do with the OP. I thought we were discussing why in a country like ours, people end up poor. What I see is a general lack of motivation among the poor. But what causes the lack of motivation? Laziness? Poor self esteem? General hopelessness? Poor Parental role models? Sub normal intelligence? Other? Probably all of those things and more.

i make a motion to blame, "lousy public policies."

 

[danielpalos]

An individual CAN improve their own lives. But sometimes they DO need a hand.

And how has that "hand" worked out over the past 50 years?

just lousy social management. why no laissez-fair, there? simply provide recourse to an income via our doctrine of employment at will, for unemployment compensation purposes; it is market friendly.

 

[Mac1958]

Varying degrees of success, certainly. So we can either punt or look for ways to improve it, without letting people fall through the cracks. Because we're better than that.

We may have been successful at feeling better about ourselves, but the cumulative effect of these programs has been progressively [sic] less social and economic mobility in our country. We can do better by objectively assessing these programs rather than continuing to rely on "hope and change."

I have no problem with that. And part of that has to be a clearer acknowledgement that this problem is as much cultural as anything else. This includes generations of Americans who have been conditioned from birth to believe/assume that they are entitled to certain benefits without having to earn them.

However, changing culture is seriously heavy lifting and takes time. Also, we have to be honest and admit that there are millions who simply don't have the capacity to make significant improvements to their lives overnight (or ever).

So, as with any other issue, approaching this problem must be done carefully, with a priority on equilibrium, and without knee jerk reactions.
.

 

[danielpalos]

Varying degrees of success, certainly. So we can either punt or look for ways to improve it, without letting people fall through the cracks. Because we're better than that.

We may have been successful at feeling better about ourselves, but the cumulative effect of these programs has been progressively [sic] less social and economic mobility in our country. We can do better by objectively assessing these programs rather than continuing to rely on "hope and change."

I have no problem with that. And part of that has to be a clearer acknowledgement that this problem is as much cultural as anything else. This includes generations of Americans who have been conditioned from birth to believe/assume that they are entitled to certain benefits without having to earn them.

However, changing culture is seriously heavy lifting and takes time. Also, we have to be honest and admit that there are millions who simply don't have the capacity to make significant improvements to their lives overnight (or ever).

So, as with any other issue, approaching this problem must be done carefully, with a priority on equilibrium, and without knee jerk reactions.
.

are gun lovers, "earning" their gun control legislation?

 

[Mac1958]

Varying degrees of success, certainly. So we can either punt or look for ways to improve it, without letting people fall through the cracks. Because we're better than that.

We may have been successful at feeling better about ourselves, but the cumulative effect of these programs has been progressively [sic] less social and economic mobility in our country. We can do better by objectively assessing these programs rather than continuing to rely on "hope and change."

I have no problem with that. And part of that has to be a clearer acknowledgement that this problem is as much cultural as anything else. This includes generations of Americans who have been conditioned from birth to believe/assume that they are entitled to certain benefits without having to earn them.

However, changing culture is seriously heavy lifting and takes time. Also, we have to be honest and admit that there are millions who simply don't have the capacity to make significant improvements to their lives overnight (or ever).

So, as with any other issue, approaching this problem must be done carefully, with a priority on equilibrium, and without knee jerk reactions.
.

are gun lovers, "earning" their gun control legislation?

I don't know, ask them.
.

 

[Fishlore]

As J.S. Mill pointed out, "while it is not true that all Conservatives are stupid, it is most certainly true that most stupid people are conservatives." Same idea, more to the point.

 

[koshergrl]

Some of the poor are lazy.
Some of the poor are just subject to really bad luck.
Some are subject to bad genes, bad upbringing, and bad decision making skills. Some are stupid and lazy.
Some are a mixture of all that. And a good dose of THE CRAZY. Many of them are totally nutsified and belong in mental institutions. That would be about 1/2 of the SSI population.

 

[danielpalos]

Varying degrees of success, certainly. So we can either punt or look for ways to improve it, without letting people fall through the cracks. Because we're better than that.

We may have been successful at feeling better about ourselves, but the cumulative effect of these programs has been progressively [sic] less social and economic mobility in our country. We can do better by objectively assessing these programs rather than continuing to rely on "hope and change."

I have no problem with that. And part of that has to be a clearer acknowledgement that this problem is as much cultural as anything else. This includes generations of Americans who have been conditioned from birth to believe/assume that they are entitled to certain benefits without having to earn them.

However, changing culture is seriously heavy lifting and takes time. Also, we have to be honest and admit that there are millions who simply don't have the capacity to make significant improvements to their lives overnight (or ever).

So, as with any other issue, approaching this problem must be done carefully, with a priority on equilibrium, and without knee jerk reactions.
.

are gun lovers, "earning" their gun control legislation?

I don't know, ask them.
.

you know what they say, "if ten moral commandments are not enough, i guess we need secular and temporal laws regarding gun control."