Anyone here NOT believe that the brain is genetically controlled like any other organ

[William Joyce]

I can't quite figure out why you quoted me. Ian and I were arguing brain shape based on race, and you responded with race and intelligence as they relate to genetics. It's not really arguing either side of what was being discussed in that quote. Care to elaborate?

The brain size debate only matters in so far as it relates to intelligence. I presume you strongly OPPOSE the idea that brain size, race and intelligence have anything to do with each other, no?

 

[IanC]

My kids are both shorter than me and my husband.

You fail, Billy boy.

And IanC...the study you quoted found bigger brain volume in a pair of twins, but it didn't prove that was caused by nature and not nurture. For instance, it didn't find that genetics made for a bigger piece of the brain, it only found that a pair of intelligent twins had a bigger brain volume. It's quite plausible that LEARNING makes your brain bigger.

You also fail.

I am assuming you are talking about this article-
From an article on brain growth-

Quote:
Twin studies have also shown that genetic effects vary regionally within the brain, with high heritabilities of frontal lobe volumes (90--95%), moderate estimates in the hippocampus (40--69%), and environmental factors influencing several medial brain areas.Studies revealed that total brain volume is positively correlated with general intelligence. In healthy subjects, the level of intellectual functioning has been positively associated with whole brain, gray, and white matter volumes [Thompson et al, 2001; Posthuma et al, 2002]. More focally, several brain areas were found to be correlated with intelligence. Interestingly, it was also shown that the trajectory changes in cortical thickness throughout adolescence are associated with the level of intelligence.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1016131452.htm

did you even read it? the cohort is hundreds of sets of twins, both fraternal and identical, and their siblings. it is mostly concerned with heritibility of brain matter with a small section on how measured intelligence is correlated with various areas of the brain and the size of those areas. it also discusses environmental components.
your comments certainly misrepresent that article. you said that it is plausible that learning increases brain size. I havent seen any study on that but I have seen at least one study that found intelligence strongly influences future learning but learning does not affect future intelligence.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

The brain size debate only matters in so far as it relates to intelligence. I presume you strongly OPPOSE the idea that brain size, race and intelligence have anything to do with each other, no?

my only point in this thread was that normal human brain shape is the same across races, and Ian has still not presented any evidence to the contrary.

 

[IanC]

alliebaba- what do skulls of prehistoric men have to do with this subject? are you now saying they had the same level of intelligence that we do?
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/60/2/images/amp_60_2_181_fig2a.gif
I wish I could get these images to work. It makes it obvious that white asian and black skulls have different shapes. different shapes means........they are different.

 

[IanC]

Ravi said-

Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi
My kids are both shorter than me and my husband.

You fail, Billy boy.

in response to-

In order NOT to believe that brains are genetically determined, you'd essentially have to believe that NOTHING is genetically determined, because how can one part of the body be genetically determined and others not? "Yes, your height is the result of your parents, as is your skin color.

hahahahaha. The whole field of genetics has been overturned by a personal anecdote! Ravi should have got the Nobel Peace Prize not Obama

 

[IanC]

The brain size debate only matters in so far as it relates to intelligence. I presume you strongly OPPOSE the idea that brain size, race and intelligence have anything to do with each other, no?

my only point in this thread was that normal human brain shape is the same across races, and Ian has still not presented any evidence to the contrary.

You agreed that forensic anthropologists could identify race by skull shape then turned around and said all brain shapes are alike because textbooks only use generalized diagrams. So, are all engines the same because you can find a generalized diagram? Perhaps any screw will do in a repair because they are all generally alike. The racial averages for brains differ in shape, size and function. Are they huge differences? Depends on your definition.
In this arguement you are saying brains are alike and I say different. Here are two sets of diagrams showing some of the racial skull differences. Will you now just stop stonewalling, denying the obvious reality?
Racial differences in skull shape. « Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/..._181_fig2a.gif

 

[SmarterThanHick]

You agreed that forensic anthropologists could identify race by skull shape then turned around and said all brain shapes are alike because textbooks only use generalized diagrams.

False. This is the second time I'm correcting you from making that exact same mistake.

Forensic anthropologists can identify face based on facial features (again, that's the front of the skull, not where the brain is stored). If you want specifics, these bones include the mandible, maxilla, ethmoid, sphenoid. They do NOT identify a skull based on the bones surrounding the brain, which include the occipital and parietal bones.

If you look up the term phrenology, you will quickly find that it is a debunked pseudoscience. Feeling the bumps in the bones that surround the brain in no way have exhibited any predictive value. In fact, regardless of the external bumps, the internal surfaces of those same bones are smooth and rounded. It appears that one of your (many) mistakes is assuming that these bones have a uniform thickness at every point. That's not the case.

Once again I will ask: if you have such overwhelming proof across thousands of articles, why have you not shown a SINGLE one that states brain shapes are different between races?

 

[Ringel05]

You agreed that forensic anthropologists could identify race by skull shape then turned around and said all brain shapes are alike because textbooks only use generalized diagrams.

False. This is the second time I'm correcting you from making that exact same mistake.

Forensic anthropologists can identify face based on facial features (again, that's the front of the skull, not where the brain is stored). If you want specifics, these bones include the mandible, maxilla, ethmoid, sphenoid. They do NOT identify a skull based on the bones surrounding the brain, which include the occipital and parietal bones.

If you look up the term phrenology, you will quickly find that it is a debunked pseudoscience. Feeling the bumps in the bones that surround the brain in no way have exhibited any predictive value. In fact, regardless of the external bumps, the internal surfaces of those same bones are smooth and rounded. It appears that one of your (many) mistakes is assuming that these bones have a uniform thickness at every point. That's not the case.

Once again I will ask: if you have such overwhelming proof across thousands of articles, why have you not shown a SINGLE one that states brain shapes are different between races?

Because he/she/it is a troll and has no proof. Hell next he'she/it will claim size differentiations in the Medulla Oblogata determines racial intellegence and body size not to mention determining plasticity of the synaptic modification range.

 

[IanC]

False. This is the second time I'm correcting you from making that exact same mistake.

Forensic anthropologists can identify face based on facial features (again, that's the front of the skull, not where the brain is stored). If you want specifics, these bones include the mandible, maxilla, ethmoid, sphenoid. They do NOT identify a skull based on the bones surrounding the brain, which include the occipital and parietal bones.

I put up two sets of diagrams showing that negroid skulls are narrower and more elongated than caucasian ones. no anthropologist is going to argue that but you continue to deny it. you cant have different shaped cranial vaults with brains exactly the same shape. that is obvious to all but you.

 

[IanC]

while perusing the millions of hits for 'brain,heredity' on google, I found this

Craniometry - Racial difference in brain size
In his 1839 Crania Americana, anthropologist Samuel George Morton reported that the mean cranial capacity of the skulls of Whites was 87 in³ (1,425 cm³), while that of Blacks was 78 in³ (1,278 cm³). Based on the measurement of 144 skulls of Native Americans, he reported an a figure of 82 in³ (1,344 cm³).

Morton's work has been criticized by Stephen Jay Gould, who alleged in his 1981 book The Mismeasure of Man that Morton was guilty of fudging data and "overpacking" the skulls with filler. Gould writes that the differences are "trivial", but J. Philippe Rushton (1996) responds that a difference of only 1 cubic inch (16 cm³) equates to millions of neurons.

In 1988, J. S. Michael remeasured a random sample of Morton's skulls and concluded that Morton had made very few errors. J. Philippe Rushton (1989) additionally reanalyzed Gould's retabulation, concluding that Morton had shown a pattern of decreasing brain size proceeding from East Asians, Europeans, and Africans.

In 1873, Paul Pierre Broca found the same pattern by weighing brains at autopsy. Other historical studies showing a Black-White difference in brain size include Bean (1906), Mall, (1909), Pearl, (1934) and Vint (1934).

In his controversial 1995 work Race, Evolution, and Behavior, J. Philippe Rushton reported an average endocranial volume of 1,415 cm³ for "Orientals" [sic], 1,362 for Whites, and 1,268 for Blacks. When adjusted for average body size, the differences become more pronounced; i.e., the encephalization quotients (EQ) display greater differences than do absolute brain sizes (Jerisen, 1973, 2000; Rushton, 1991). Rushton (1991) found an EQ of 7.26 for East Asians as compared to 6.76 for Caucasians. Differences in brain size between Asians and Europeans sometimes do not appear until adjusted for body size (Rushton, 1997). In some cases Europeans averaged higher absolute brain sizes than East Asians but lower relative brain sizes when adjusted for body size (Rushton, 1994).

Other studies that have shown similar patterns in average brain size include Ho et al. (1980), who measured 1,261 brains at autopsy, and Beals et al. (1984), who measured approximately 20,000 skulls, finding the same East Asian → European → African pattern. Other studies have shown the same pattern in average head size, including Rushton (1992), Rushton (1994), and the National Collaborative Perinatal Project [1] (described by Broman, Nichols, Shaugnessy, & Kennedy, 1987) which collected anthropometric data, including head measurements and IQ, on approximately 35,000 children from 1959 to 1974 (although the study began with over 50,000 subjects, some attrition occurred as with many longitudinal studies). Analyses of the data found the East Asian → White → Black pattern in head size and IQ at 4 months, 1 year, and 7 years of age.

East Asian brains have greater width and breadth (i.e., are more brachycephalic) and are more spherically shaped than those of Europeans, which are more so than those of Africans. Africans tend to have longer and narrower (more dolichocephalic) brains (Beals et al., 1984; McShane, 1983; Rushton & Ankney, 2000). Beals et al. proposed that the longer and narrower African brain evolved for better heat dissipation in a warmer climate, while East Asians and Europeans evolved comparatively shorter and wider brains for thermoregulatory purposes in a cooler climate. Rushton & Ankney (2000, pp. 612-613) question the thermoregulatory hypothesis, instead positing that brachycephalization and sphericalization allow for greater brain size. At the same time, Rushton and Ankney believe it is possible that the need to thermoregulate in Africa may have selected against increasing brain size.

Rushton and Ankney (2000) found a pattern of descending prognathism, glabella size, postorbital constriction, and temporal fossae in African, European, and East Asian skulls and propose that these structures shrank over the course of evolution to allow greater brain size.

 

[William Joyce]

The brain size debate only matters in so far as it relates to intelligence. I presume you strongly OPPOSE the idea that brain size, race and intelligence have anything to do with each other, no?

my only point in this thread was that normal human brain shape is the same across races, and Ian has still not presented any evidence to the contrary.

There's evidence posted on the thread, as well as the book I mentioned.

But let's face it, STH, you're not interested in evidence.

You're interested in your politically correct stance on race.

Big fucking deal.

That describes a lot of people.

For this set, "facts" are the scariest thing on earth.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I put up two sets of diagrams showing that negroid skulls are narrower and more elongated than caucasian ones. no anthropologist is going to argue that but you continue to deny it. you cant have different shaped cranial vaults with brains exactly the same shape. that is obvious to all but you.

False. You copied and pasted stand alone DRAWINGS with no explanation or credibility. You have not shown a single scientific paper that has supported this claim.

while perusing the millions of hits for 'brain,heredity' on google, I found this

Craniometry - Racial difference in brain size

No one in this thread has contested brain size differences exist.

There's evidence posted on the thread, as well as the book I mentioned.

False. Please quote anywhere in that book you mentioned that it states brain shape is different between races. In fact, I'll make it simple: what are the differences in SHAPE (not size, not intelligence, not phrenology, not bone structure, but brain shape) between any two races? Point to any of the "evidence posted on the thread" that states a single specific difference in shape.

But let's face it, STH, you're not interested in evidence.

You're interested in your politically correct stance on race.

False. I have no interest in political correctness, but rather medical/biological accuracy, nor does my assertion that brain shapes amongst humans have a connotation of any racial agenda. All normal humans have the same brain shape, comprised of the same brain lobes with the same gyri and sulci.

But again, you have an easy claim to prove: tell me a single difference between the brain shape of any two races you like. Again, not head size, not facial features, not phrenology, not intelligence, but brain SHAPE. I look forward to your likely avoidance of the question.

 

[IanC]

hahaha, like I said, you are just stonewalling. I put up drawings that showed the top view of skulls with pronounced racial differences. do you consider them fake? I put up an anthropology blog article with pictures of two mummies showing pronounced racial differences. I put up a clip from a cranial encyclopedia describing racial brain shapes. do you think there is some vast conspiracy to misidentify black skulls as narrower and more elongated than white or asian skulls?

East Asian brains have greater width and breadth (i.e., are more brachycephalic) and are more spherically shaped than those of Europeans, which are more so than those of Africans. Africans tend to have longer and narrower (more dolichocephalic) brains (Beals et al., 1984; McShane, 1983; Rushton & Ankney, 2000).

go ahead and ignore the facts if you want but I believe I have put up enough information to convince any reasonable person that differences in brain shape exists.

 

[Ravi]

hahaha, like I said, you are just stonewalling. I put up drawings that showed the top view of skulls with pronounced racial differences. do you consider them fake? I put up an anthropology blog article with pictures of two mummies showing pronounced racial differences. I put up a clip from a cranial encyclopedia describing racial brain shapes. do you think there is some vast conspiracy to misidentify black skulls as narrower and more elongated than white or asian skulls?

East Asian brains have greater width and breadth (i.e., are more brachycephalic) and are more spherically shaped than those of Europeans, which are more so than those of Africans. Africans tend to have longer and narrower (more dolichocephalic) brains (Beals et al., 1984; McShane, 1983; Rushton & Ankney, 2000).

go ahead and ignore the facts if you want but I believe I have put up enough information to convince any reasonable person that differences in brain shape exists.

You forgot to post this part:

Extensive statistical analyses by Beals et al. showed that cranial size varies primarily with climatic zones (e.g.,distance from the equator), not race. According to Beals et al., the correlations of brain size to race are spurious: smaller crania are found in warmer climates, irrespective of race. Several other studies found that North American Blacks were superior to American Whites in brain weight, that they had cranial capacities that compared favorably to the average for various samples of Caucasians, and that they had excess neurons larger than many groups of Caucasoids, for example, the English and the French. In general, skulls from people in countries with poverty and infant malnutrition are smaller regardless of race.

What a doofus you are...you must have a tiny brain.

 

[L.K.Eder]

MAFIA: Multi-Atlas Fluid Image Alignment

Automated ventricular mapping with multi-atlas fluid image alignment reveals genetic effects in Alzheimer's disease

LINK to big PIC illustrating the method

PDF link to QUANTITATIVE GENETIC MODELING OF LATERAL VENTRICULAR SHAPE AND VOLUME USING MULTI-ATLAS FLUID IMAGE ALIGNMENT IN TWINS

excerpts:

..

Genetic factors increase correlations within MZ twin pairs; common environmental factors increase intrapair correlations for both MZ and DZ twin pairs; unique environmental factors decrease intrapair correlations for both MZ and DZ twin pairs.

..

DZ twins resemble each other less than MZ twins do, which suggests that genetic factors influence lateral ventricular shape differences.

..

Genetic control of structure is greatest in the mid-portion of anterior horn and in the posterior horn.

..

Our maximum-likelihood estimates demonstrate a significant influence of common environmental factors but minimal contribution of genetic factors to lateral ventricular volumes, accounting for 45.63% and 0% of variance in the scaled data, respectively.


.

haha, now what? a mixture of nature and nurture. how surprising.

 

[IanC]

MAFIA: Multi-Atlas Fluid Image Alignment

Automated ventricular mapping with multi-atlas fluid image alignment reveals genetic effects in Alzheimer's disease

LINK to big PIC illustrating the method

PDF link to QUANTITATIVE GENETIC MODELING OF LATERAL VENTRICULAR SHAPE AND VOLUME USING MULTI-ATLAS FLUID IMAGE ALIGNMENT IN TWINS

excerpts:

..

Genetic factors increase correlations within MZ twin pairs; common environmental factors increase intrapair correlations for both MZ and DZ twin pairs; unique environmental factors decrease intrapair correlations for both MZ and DZ twin pairs.

..

DZ twins resemble each other less than MZ twins do, which suggests that genetic factors influence lateral ventricular shape differences.

..

Genetic control of structure is greatest in the mid-portion of anterior horn and in the posterior horn.

..

Our maximum-likelihood estimates demonstrate a significant influence of common environmental factors but minimal contribution of genetic factors to lateral ventricular volumes, accounting for 45.63% and 0% of variance in the scaled data, respectively.


.

haha, now what? a mixture of nature and nurture. how surprising.

yes, sounds familiar to the link I put up.

Twin studies have also shown that genetic effects vary regionally within the brain, with high heritabilities of frontal lobe volumes (90--95%), moderate estimates in the hippocampus (40--69%), and environmental factors influencing several medial brain areas.

we all know that intelligence is seated in the frontal lobes and ventricular volumes are associated with disease states, right?

 

[IanC]

You forgot to post this part:

Quote:
Extensive statistical analyses by Beals et al. showed that cranial size varies primarily with climatic zones (e.g.,distance from the equator), not race. According to Beals et al., the correlations of brain size to race are spurious: smaller crania are found in warmer climates, irrespective of race. Several other studies found that North American Blacks were superior to American Whites in brain weight, that they had cranial capacities that compared favorably to the average for various samples of Caucasians, and that they had excess neurons larger than many groups of Caucasoids, for example, the English and the French. In general, skulls from people in countries with poverty and infant malnutrition are smaller regardless of race.
What a doofus you are...you must have a tiny brain.

yes there is a theory that heat dissipation leads to longer and narrower skulls/brains. caucasian and asian brains evolved in cold northern climes, negroid brains in hot equatorial ones. I have never seen any studies that say negroid brains are larger than caucasian ones, but I have heard of many that say the opposite. Care to link your studies up? And as for countries with poverty and malnutrition, does lack of intelligence cause poverty or is it poverty that causes lack of intelligence? Severely malnourished North Korean adopted babies grew up to have higher than normal measured intelligence.
And as to the size of my brain...what does that have to do with anything? Insults seem to be a large part of your debating style and logic practically a nonexistent one.

 

[William Joyce]

tell me a single difference between the brain shape of any two races you like. Again, not head size, not facial features, not phrenology, not intelligence, but brain SHAPE. I look forward to your likely avoidance of the question.

What's brain shape got to do with anything?

 

[Ravi]

You forgot to post this part:

Quote:
Extensive statistical analyses by Beals et al. showed that cranial size varies primarily with climatic zones (e.g.,distance from the equator), not race. According to Beals et al., the correlations of brain size to race are spurious: smaller crania are found in warmer climates, irrespective of race. Several other studies found that North American Blacks were superior to American Whites in brain weight, that they had cranial capacities that compared favorably to the average for various samples of Caucasians, and that they had excess neurons larger than many groups of Caucasoids, for example, the English and the French. In general, skulls from people in countries with poverty and infant malnutrition are smaller regardless of race.
What a doofus you are...you must have a tiny brain.

yes there is a theory that heat dissipation leads to longer and narrower skulls/brains. caucasian and asian brains evolved in cold northern climes, negroid brains in hot equatorial ones. I have never seen any studies that say negroid brains are larger than caucasian ones, but I have heard of many that say the opposite. Care to link your studies up? And as for countries with poverty and malnutrition, does lack of intelligence cause poverty or is it poverty that causes lack of intelligence? Severely malnourished North Korean adopted babies grew up to have higher than normal measured intelligence.
And as to the size of my brain...what does that have to do with anything? Insults seem to be a large part of your debating style and logic practically a nonexistent one.

You came here making a claim. You at first refused to prove your claim. When pushed, you coughed up some discredited studies.

You've yet to prove your claim.

Until you do, you are nothing but an object of derision.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

I read a very elaborate peer reviewed paper which claimed:

a) the ashkenazi jews had undergone a mutation, giving them advanced intelligence
b) this mutation had been spread amongst this group in an isolated manner, due to the few intermarriages between jews and gentiles of the time.
c) it went on to name all the great ashkenazi thinkers (einstein, Freud, etc.) as well as IQ tests (ashkenazi jews, as opposed to Mizrahis, tend to score higher in IQ tests than non jews)

now this scientific study was nothing more than jewish masturbation, but it clearly proves something: science can be quite easily used to prove any racial differences because of the inherent difficulty in proving/disproving biological differences between groups